Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[BenjaminN]

Deuteronomy 28 (New King James Version)

64“Then the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known—wood and stone. 65And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the Lord will give you a [v]trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul. 66Your life shall hang in doubt before you; you shall fear day and night, and have no assurance of life. 67In the morning you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were evening!’ And at evening you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were morning!’ because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see.

68“And the Lord will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, ‘You shall never see it again.’ And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.”

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It's usually the pretrib position arguing for strict dispensationalism. Jews separated from Christians in everything.

Not exactly.

In "the Church which is His body" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]") there is NO DISTINCTION whatsoever... in our standing before God "in Christ" (i.e. 'neither Jew or Gentile').



In Rev7 (in / within / during the trib years, FOLLOWING "our Rapture"), the "144,000" (of the tribes OF ISRAEL listed there [singular nation]) are set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of all the nations [plural nations]" (both referring to "saved" persons [/saints/believers], here also).

 

[BenjaminN]

Eph3:6 - "that the Gentiles are joint-heirs, and a joint-body, and joint-partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus, through [/by means of] the gospel"

The first Christians as part of Christ Yeshua's Christian Church, were of what nationality, yes they were Jews from Judea as part of the former Israel.... Before the early Christian Church in Jerusalem were supplanted by the Roman "church", which excludes Jews as partakers in Christianity, unless they forfeit their Judaic identity and customs in obedience to God's commandments relevant for them.

bit.ly/EarlyJerusalemChurch

Glad that you agree that both the Jews and Gentiles are "joint-heirs" (God's covenant children of Abraham, through whom all the nations of the earth would have been blessed) and a "joint-body" (the Christian Church Body of Christ consisting of both Jewish and Gentile believers at its fulfillment at the second coming of Christ Yeshua in the clouds, with the rapture into the clouds of resurrected and alive Jewish and Christian believers) and "joint-partakers" of the promise of salvation by the blood sacrifice of Christ Yeshua in accordance with the Gospel of Christ Yeshua, which is God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit's renewed covenant with His chosen, believing part of mankind from all tribes, tongues and nations including Jews and Gentiles.

Matthew 24 (New King James Version)

14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations (not excluding the Jewish nation in Judea as part of the former united Israel), and then the end will come.

Acts 1 (New King James Version)

8But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be [c]witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea (not excluding the Jewish nation in Judea as part of the former united Israel) and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Ephesians 3 (New King James Version)

The Mystery Revealed
1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2if indeed you have heard of the [a]dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

Purpose of the Mystery
8To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things [c]through Jesus Christ; 10to the intent that now the [d]manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the [e]principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him. 13Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

Appreciation of the Mystery
14For this reason I bow my knees to the Father [f]of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.


20Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.



Hebrews 8 (New King James Version)

A New Covenant
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[BenjaminN]

When you say "living among Christians unaware of their sons-of-Jacob/Israel identity," are you saying (those you're referring to) "are Christians"? (just seeking clarification here).




How are you viewing these passages?

--Luke 22:30 - [said to "the 12"] "so that you may eat and may drink at My table in My kingdom, and may sit on thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel."

--Matthew 19:28 - " And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man shall sit down upon His throne of glory, you having followed Me, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel."
[COMPARE with Matt25:31-34, and context, for its TIMING (i.e. His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth)]

Before Israel will be restored as prophesied in Ezekiel 37 under Christ Yeshua, at His second coming to establish His Millennial Kingdom to come into fulfillment when Revelation 20 is realised, currently I am saying, the "dry bones" are referring to Christian Jewish Judahite and Christian Gentile Ephraimite believers as part of the broader Christian Church Body of Christ, that are exclusively (from other non-Israelite believers that includes all the blessed nations as ancestors of Abraham) the ancestors of Jacob/Israel, lost and scattered among the nations, of which some are still to this day unaware of their Israelite ancestry, due to the curse of Deuteronomy 28:64 that will only be completely lifted from Israel when Christ Yeshua returns to this earth, to restore the Kingdom of Israel when Judah and Ephraim's eight and two half tribes will finally be reunited by Christ Yeshua's reign from Jerusalem, Israel over the whole earth as the only Lion of the tribe of Judah:

Deuteronomy 28 (New King James Version)

64“Then the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known—wood and stone. 65And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the Lord will give you a [v]trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul. 66Your life shall hang in doubt before you; you shall fear day and night, and have no assurance of life. 67In the morning you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were evening!’ And at evening you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were morning!’ because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see.


68“And the Lord will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, ‘You shall never see it again.’ And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.”

Acts 1 (New King James Version)

6Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be [c]witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

John 11 (New King James Version)

49And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, 50nor do you consider that it is expedient for [e]us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.” 51Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

53Then, from that day on, they plotted to put Him to death. 54Therefore Jesus no longer walked openly among the Jews, but went from there into the country near the wilderness, to a city called Ephraim, and there remained with His disciples.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I believe that Rev 7:3 refers to the same 144k as Rev 14.

Great! We seem to be on the same page with regard to the above ^ . = )

Regarding "firstfruits", the mention of the 144k in Rev 14 isn't in the context of resurrection or rapture.

Recall, I agreed with that (that Rev14:4's context is NOT saying they've been "resurrected" or "raptured" or otherwise removed from the earth. Right. They've not been... as I see it.)

But that just brings us back to what I said in an earlier post (along these lines):

--to say one is "firstfruit" does not necessarily speak to their "death" or "resurrection" (it doesn't seem to be, in either James 1:18... or in 2Th2:13 if you're like me and believe that "firstfruit" is in that verse)

--to be part of a "harvest" doesn't require one to have "died"
(Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 speaks of the "WHEAT harvest" [which I believe occurs at the time of His Second Coming to the earth--NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" time-slot], and NO ONE in that passage [nor its parallel passage where Jesus is answering their LATER Q of Him about that very thing He'd PREVIOUSLY SPOKEN to them about in Matt13, their later Q being in Matt24:3, and His response following in 2 chpts]... NO ONE is shown being "resurrected" in any of those, esp. Matt13 [re: the "WHEAT harvest"]--I believe those are "still-living" persons on the earth [/saints/believers] at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (who will ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies [the "saints / righteous / believers" only])

--I think I had another thought along these lines... but I'm getting sidetracked by a sudden pile of work beside me that I need to attend to, atm. = )

 

[Musicmaster]

No problem at all.
People survive. If it's a problem for a post trib view it's as much of a problem for a pre-trib view if not more so.
It's usually the pretrib position arguing for strict dispensationalism. Jews separated from Christians in everything.

Perhaps that is the belief of some pre-tribers, but not all. Is it not the contention of most post-tribers that the survivors are raptured and given their glorified bodies?

MM

 

[BenjaminN]

How are you viewing these passages?

--Luke 22:30 - [said to "the 12"] "so that you may eat and may drink at My table in My kingdom, and may sit on thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel."

--Matthew 19:28 - " And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man shall sit down upon His throne of glory, you having followed Me, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel."

The Church, the Body of Christ Yeshua's believers consists of people of all tribes, tongues and nations, including Christian Jewish Judahite Israelites, Christian Gentile Ephraimite Israelites and Christian non-Israelite.

Both Luke 22:30 and Matthew 19:28, says that the Christian non-Israelites believers will sit on thrones, being the yardstick of God's judgement of the Christ Yeshua believing Christian character, of individuals being tof he ancestry of all the twelve tribes of Israel, which is the believing and non-believing Jewish Judahite Israelites, together with the believing and non-believing Gentile Ephraimite Israelites.

[COMPARE with Matt25:31-34, and context, for its TIMING (i.e. His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth)]

Christ Yeshua's Great White Throne judgement of all the people from all the nations, of all the generations from the beginning to the end of the world's existence, who ever lived, happens after the battle of Gog and Magog (Revelation 20: and Ezekiel 38&39) at the conclusion of Christ Yeshua's Millennial Kingdom, before the eternal new heaven and new earth and new Jerusalem is brought about by God, for God's children's inheritance for eternity with Him, while the damned will go to the lake of fire.

Revelation 20 (New King James Version)

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Satanic Rebellion Crushed
7Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Great White Throne Judgment
11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 25 (New King James Version)

The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations
31“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Perhaps that is the belief of some pre-tribers, but not all. Is it not the contention of most post-tribers that the survivors are raptured and given their glorified bodies?

MM

What kind of bodies do pre-tribbers receive?

As far as I know both believe we receive new bodies at the resurrection.

 

[cv5]

Ephesians 3 (New King James Version)

6that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs (to the Jews), of the same body, (the Body of Christ Yeshua, His Church) and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

The only truth of a kind of replacement theology, is the replacement of the early Jerusalem united Jewish and Gentile Church ( https://bit.ly/EarlyJerusalemChurch ), by the solely Gentile Roman Church, who drove millions of Jewish Christians away from the Christian faith ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian ), to bring about the rift of nearly 1700 years, as driven between Jew and Gentile by satan, https://bit.ly/Christianzionism truly is not biblical in accordance with Romans 11's one olive tree with Christ Yeshua as the root of His one Body of Christ Church, consisting of both Jewish and Gentiles members as fellow heirs and partakers of God's promise of Ephesians 3:6 of a unified body of Jewish and Gentile believers as fellow heirs in Christ Yeshua.

Christ Yeshua establishes his Gentile and Jewish united Israelite Church in Matthew 16:18, with the Jewish Israelite Peter as its bedrock. Christ Yeshua addresses his entirely Jewish Israelite apostleship of His Church, before his ascension into heaven in Acts 1:7 saying that only at a future time, which day and hour is only known by the Father (which will only happen after Christ Yeshua's return at His second coming), will He restore the Kingdom of Israel (as prophesied in Ezekiel 37) under His Kingship here on earth (as revealed later by John in Revelations to be during His Millennial reign of Revelation 20 here on earth). He further commands his entirely Jewish Israelite apostleship of His Church, to first bring the Gospel to Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria and the whole earth alike, before the end will come (Matthew 24:14).

Matthew 16 (New King James Version)

18And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not [g]prevail against it.

Acts 1 (New King James Version)
Prologue
1The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2until the day in which [a]He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

The Holy Spirit Promised
4And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be [c]witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Jesus Ascends to Heaven
9Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Matthew 24 (New King James Version)

14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Ephesians 3 (New King James Version)

The Mystery Revealed
1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2if indeed you have heard of the [a]dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

Okay let's straighten this out.
The question at hand is one of priority and sequence: Who came first in terms of the redemption in Christ?
(Acts 2:1-4) Israel came first (all 120 in the upper room were of pure Israelite stock)

(Acts 2:41, Acts 6:1) Israelites and gentile proselytites keepers of the law of Moses (assuming some of the 3000 were indeed proselytes)

(Acts 8) Then Samaritans
(Acts 10) Then straight up gentiles....who did not keep the law of Moses.

Acts ch 15 Council of Jerusalem officially sanctioned the INCLUSION of the gentiles, those who are not circumcised nor keep the law of Moses.

Nevertheless the debate/conflict about the inclusion of the gentiles continued
all the way to Acts 21...!

Those of the replacement theology HERESY have it backwards. Israel did NOT reject their Messiah completely they were those FIRSTLY CHOSEN of the true Church! The mystery of Ephesians ch 3 is one of demonstrating that which was hitherto completely unknown. Which is that is that gentiles are being redeemed......grafted in.

Which Paul elaborates upon in Romans 11.....Gentiles are grafted in....to Israel which came first!
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=Grafted&t=NKJV#s=s_primary_0_1

You've got the cart before the horse my friend. So does Hank Hannegraff and the rest of the Replacement Theology heretics. Beware.

Jesus did in fact go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel first. And redeem them to Himself first.

 

[BenjaminN]

Ephesians 3 (New King James Version)

6that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs (to the Jews), of the same body, (the Body of Christ Yeshua, His Church) and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

Yeah... "IN CHRIST" being the key phrase in this text ^ ... :


--"... having been CREATED *in Christ Jesus* ..." - Eph2:10

--"...to CREATE *in Himself* One [altogether] NEW Man out of..." - Eph2:15

--"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" - [note Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]




[note: Eph1:10 is not speaking of "in this PRESENT age" as the rest of the epistle IS speaking to]

Agree 100%, that both Jewish and Gentile Christian believers are one Body in Christ Yeshua's Christian Church.

 

[Musicmaster]

What kind of bodies do pre-tribbers receive?

As far as I know both believe we receive new bodies at the resurrection.

If we follow Paul's words to a conclusion, our bodies will be the resurrected, glorified bodies. That's my understanding of both what the pre and post-tribers believe. In such bodies, I don't think it can be said that we will be marrying and having children on this fallen earth again, nor in Heaven.

What are your thoughts?

MM

 

[cv5]

No problem at all.
People survive. If it's a problem for a post trib view it's as much of a problem for a pre-trib view if not more so.
It's usually the pretrib position arguing for strict dispensationalism. Jews separated from Christians in everything.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Israelites will be separated from gentile believers in the millennium. And that includes geographically. I would assume that Israelites will continue to marry within their tribe. The Levitical priesthood will be maintained.......which no gentiles shall partake in. The gentile nations will COME TO Israel (the land) to worship and then and return to their own lands.

All of this business of dispensationalism doesn't mean a thing to me. I am only repeating what the Bible clearly says.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Agree 100%, that both Jewish and Gentile Christian believers are one Body in Christ Yeshua's Christian Church.

So you're saying basically it's just this part of my post (the one you quoted there) with which you DISAGREE:

[note: Eph1:10 is not speaking of "in this PRESENT age" as the rest of the epistle IS speaking to]

"... the administration of the fullness of the times, to ..." (not being "NOW"... "in this PRESENT age [singular]"... but in the "age [singular] TO COME" [that is, on the earth... in the MK age... not *now*])

 

[cv5]

If we follow Paul's words to a conclusion, our bodies will be the resurrected, glorified bodies. That's my understanding of both what the pre and post-tribers believe. In such bodies, I don't think it can be said that we will be marrying and having children on this fallen earth again, nor in Heaven.

What are your thoughts?

MM

No need to speculate on this question. This includes the entire group of the first resurrection which includes the Church.

Matt 22:30
“For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

 

[cv5]

No problem at all.
People survive. If it's a problem for a post trib view it's as much of a problem for a pre-trib view if not more so.
It's usually the pretrib position arguing for strict dispensationalism. Jews separated from Christians in everything.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Israelites will be separated from gentile believers in the millennium. And that includes geographically. I would assume that Israelites will continue to marry within their tribe. The Levitical priesthood will be maintained.......which no gentiles shall partake in. The gentile nations will COME TO Israel (the land) to worship and then and return to their own lands.

All of this business of dispensationalism doesn't mean a thing to me. I am only repeating what the Bible clearly says.

Let me just say that these distinctions are only occurring in the millennium. In the new heavens and new earth....none of this will be necessary. Because sacrifices and preaching and training will not be necessary.

 

[BenjaminN]

The post-tribulation folks have a problem on their hands to explain how those in the Millennium can have children or will need to farm if they are all living in their glorified bodies. Their only "out" is to claim that it's only Jews who enter the millennium kingdom. That goes against many other scriptures that point out the fact that there will also be many other nations and peoples on the earth at that time, Zech. 14 for example.

MM

Ezekiel 46 (New King James Version)

The Prince and Inheritance Laws
16‘Thus says the Lord God: “If the prince gives a gift of some of his inheritance to any of his sons, it shall belong to his sons; it is their possession by inheritance. 17But if he gives a gift of some of his inheritance to one of his servants, it shall be his until the year of liberty, after which it shall return to the prince. But his inheritance shall belong to his sons; it shall become theirs. 18Moreover the prince shall not take any of the people’s inheritance by evicting them from their property; he shall provide an inheritance for his sons from his own property, so that none of My people may be scattered from his property.” ’ ”

Ezekiel 37 (New King James Version)

One Kingdom, One King
15Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 16“As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ 17Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.

18“And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— 19say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ’ 20And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.

21“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

24“David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26Moreover I will [c]make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” ’ ”

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

If we follow Paul's words to a conclusion, our bodies will be the resurrected, glorified bodies. That's my understanding of both what the pre and post-tribers believe. In such bodies, I don't think it can be said that we will be marrying and having children on this fallen earth again, nor in Heaven.

What are your thoughts?

MM

I don't think so either.

 

[BenjaminN]

Perhaps that is the belief of some pre-tribers, but not all. Is it not the contention of most post-tribers that the survivors are raptured and given their glorified bodies?

MM

1 Thessalonians 4 (New King James Version)

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming
13But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[cv5]

Agree 100%, that both Jewish and Gentile Christian believers are one Body in Christ Yeshua's Christian Church.

Another bizarre feature of some of those in the Replacement Theology crowd: They think they are Jewish.
Quite a mess these people.

I knew a few way way back. Even went to their "Church". to check them out. These people were quoting the Targums, Mishna....the works. And yes, they believed in the 10 lost tribe heresy too.

I think I've got your number my friend. I urge you to escape from that trap. It leads to a place you don't want to be.

 

[cv5]

The first Christians as part of Christ Yeshua's Christian Church, were of what nationality, yes they were Jews from Judea as part of the former Israel.... Before the early Christian Church in Jerusalem were supplanted by the Roman "church", which excludes Jews as partakers in Christianity, unless they forfeit their Judaic identity and customs in obedience to God's commandments relevant for them.

bit.ly/EarlyJerusalemChurch

Glad that you agree that both the Jews and Gentiles are "joint-heirs" (God's covenant children of Abraham, through whom all the nations of the earth would have been blessed) and a "joint-body" (the Christian Church Body of Christ consisting of both Jewish and Gentile believers at its fulfillment at the second coming of Christ Yeshua in the clouds, with the rapture into the clouds of resurrected and alive Jewish and Christian believers) and "joint-partakers" of the promise of salvation by the blood sacrifice of Christ Yeshua in accordance with the Gospel of Christ Yeshua, which is God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit's renewed covenant with His chosen, believing part of mankind from all tribes, tongues and nations including Jews and Gentiles.

Matthew 24 (New King James Version)

14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations (not excluding the Jewish nation in Judea as part of the former united Israel), and then the end will come.

Acts 1 (New King James Version)

8But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be [c]witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea (not excluding the Jewish nation in Judea as part of the former united Israel) and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Ephesians 3 (New King James Version)

The Mystery Revealed
1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2if indeed you have heard of the [a]dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

Purpose of the Mystery
8To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things [c]through Jesus Christ; 10to the intent that now the [d]manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the [e]principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him. 13Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

Appreciation of the Mystery
14For this reason I bow my knees to the Father [f]of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.


20Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.



Hebrews 8 (New King James Version)

A New Covenant
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

<<The first Christians as part of Christ Yeshua's Christian Church, were of what nationality, yes they were Jews from Judea>>

Absolutely incorrect. ALL of the first 12 Apostles were from Galilee. Their tribes are not named....but they were likely a mixture and certainly not all of Judah.....except for Judas. Who WAS from the area of the south. And WAS likely of the tribe of Judah.

Paul was a Benjaminite. You are wrong there as well.

Act ch 2 makes it impossible to assume that all 3000 were of the tribe of Judah.

I am not going to post the relevant Scriptures. There a dozens and dozens. Do you own research.