Jesus and Paul -two different gospels?

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kaylagrl

Guest
#141
#141
John146 said:
Paul makes it clear that the gospel he preached was specifically how Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day. The Lord and his disciples did not preach this prior to the cross. Their message was the good news of the restoration of the kingdom to Israel. It would include a physical deliverance from their enemies so they could serve God without fear.

Luke 1
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, (a physical redemption)
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; (a physical salvation)
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; (Israel)
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; (to the nation of Israel)
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Even after the cross, the disciples were looking for the restoration of the kingdom of Israel because that's what they had been preaching.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
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So are you saying OT saints knew nothing of the coming Messiah and that He would be the sacrifice for their sins?
 
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John146

Senior Member
#142
Jan 13, 2016
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#142
eternally-gratefull said:
whatever man
john 3: 16 was not about the kingdom
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Let's take a look at John 3:16, which is prophetic.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You see, eternal salvation was not available until the Son of man was lifted up. No one was "looking forward" to the cross. The truth of eternal salvation through the cross was not revealed until after the cross.
 
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John146

Senior Member
#143
Jan 13, 2016
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#143
kaylagrl said:
So are you saying OT saints knew nothing of the coming Messiah and that He would be the sacrifice for their sins?
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The cross was a mystery until after it happened. Even the Lord's closest disciples had no clue of the cross.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#144
#144
Guojing said:
If you meant salvation is always thru Christ, I would certainly agree with you.
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Ok, not sure how you took it any other way, through faith in Christ, OT, NT. I thought those Scriptures were clear. Everyone is saved the same way. Jew or Gentile. The OT Jews knew Messiah was coming, they believed by faith. They looked forward, we look backward. Both of us were looking at the cross.
 
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Guojing

Banned
#145
Jan 12, 2019
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#145
KingdomBrat said:
Is that lens from the traditions of your family beliefs and of the churches you attended, or have you made a conclusion from your own assessment and [reasoning]?
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I used to hold the covenant theology lens too, until I realized it’s better to interpret scripture literally instead, taking context into account.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#146
#146
John146 said:
The cross was a mystery until after it happened. Even the Lord's closest disciples had no clue of the cross.
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The OT saints knew there would be a suffering Messiah who would die for sins. Just because they may not have understood as we do looking back doesn't mean they weren't trusting and looking for the coming Messiah. Saved the same way we are, through faith.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#147
#147
Guojing said:
I used to hold the covenant theology lens too, until I realized it’s better to interpret scripture literally instead, taking context into account.
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Perhaps, but that doesn't mean there is more than one way to be saved. Or two Gospels.
 
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Guojing

Banned
#148
Jan 12, 2019
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#148
kaylagrl said:
Ok, not sure how you took it any other way, through faith in Christ, OT, NT. I thought those Scriptures were clear. Everyone is saved the same way. Jew or Gentile. The OT Jews knew Messiah was coming, they believed by faith. They looked forward, we look backward. Both of us were looking at the cross.
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The idea that everyone in the OT were looking forward to the cross is the key axiom of covenant theology.

They were actually looking forward to the promised messiah that will usher in the promised kingdom of heaven on Earth, see Luke 1, what Gabriel, Mary and Zechariah stated
 
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Guojing

Banned
#149
Jan 12, 2019
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#149
kaylagrl said:
Perhaps, but that doesn't mean there is more than one way to be saved. Or two Gospels.
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All of us saved thru Christ Jesus is not equivalent to saying there is only one good news that God has revealed to mankind.
 
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BrightBreezyMorning

Banned
#150
Nov 11, 2018
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#150
Listen, God sent us Jesus as the "teacher" not Paul, and yet, Paul seems to have been ordained through Jesus and the Holy Spirit to give us good teachings. However, I think if you have any question between the two, and you don't look to the actual "Son of God," to answer that question, then you may be as fallible as any other person, who does not seek Jesus first. For Jesus said, we shall not go to heaven, except thru Him. So figure it out. Why you need someone to tell you that? Except, once I needed someone to tell me that too. You know why? I was afraid. Afraid to step on toes... afraid I would mess up.. and afraid to just trust Jesus... so it seems to me God gave us Paul. Kind of felt like to me, If we couldn't live up to Jesus... then Paul gave us a grace. Anyway, that's my understanding.... figure out what u will... and pray on it. God bless and love u!
 
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John146

Senior Member
#151
Jan 13, 2016
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#151
kaylagrl said:
The OT saints knew there would be a suffering Messiah who would die for sins. Just because they may not have understood as we do looking back doesn't mean they weren't trusting and looking for the coming Messiah. Saved the same way we are, through faith.
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Can you post passages where they understood this? Remember, many prophets had no understanding of their spoken prophecy. See 1 Peter 1.
 
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KingdomBrat

Banned
#152
Oct 19, 2020
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#152
kaylagrl said:
The OT saints knew there would be a suffering Messiah who would die for sins. Just because they may not have understood as we do looking back doesn't mean they weren't trusting and looking for the coming Messiah. Saved the same way we are, through faith.
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How we view the Coming Messiah as King of kings and Lord of lords leading into Armageddon and then to the 1,000 year Reign...the Hebrew/Jews also believed the Messiah would overthrow the enemy. So, they did see a similarity in how we view the Second Coming of Christ. They just did not realize God was planning to send the Messiah [Twice]. Once like we know of 2,000 years ago. And the Second Coming where He comes in full Power and Glory!
 
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John146

Senior Member
#153
Jan 13, 2016
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#153
KingdomBrat said:
How we view the Coming Messiah as King of kings and Lord of lords leading into Armageddon and then to the 1,000 year Reign...the Hebrew/Jews also believed the Messiah would overthrow the enemy. So, they did see a similarity in how we view the Second Coming of Christ. They just did not realize God was planning to send the Messiah [Twice]. Once like we know of 2,000 years ago. And the Second Coming where He comes in full Power and Glory!
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The Jews were looking forward to the coming of their Messiah, what we see as the second coming of the King of kings and Lord of lords, not a suffering servant come to die for the sins of the world.
 
PennEd

PennEd

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#154
Apr 22, 2013
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#154
throughfaith said:
But its one thing for Jesus to tell them what was about to happen and another as to what Gospel THEY were preaching .
Notice here .

Luke 18:34

“And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.”

This is straight after this :
31¶Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

32For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

33And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

34¶And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

(Matt. 20:29–34; Mark 10:46–52 )

Then read luke 9.6
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That wasn't the question presented. The question presented was whether Jesus preached a different Gospel than Paul.

I just showed you where they preached the same. That no one believed, prior to His death and resurrection is irrelevant to that question.
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#155
Feb 12, 2009
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#155
throughfaith said:
The burden is on those claiming Paul means ' another gospel ' in the sense of there being ONLY one . Rather what the verses ACTUALLY SAY is ' other than the one they delivered to them '
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throughfaith said:
What is happening is this with these sermons going on and on about " there's only one gospel, and if any preaches another One then they are accursed . Its done with good intentions ,but if you read the verse it actually says ' other than THE ONE they delivered ' and other than THE ONE they recieved .
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throughfaith said:
No, Paul says if anyone is preaching another Gospel than the one HE preached / delivered to them and other than the one THEY received then its wrong . Paul is not saying there is only one Gospel. This is what some are imagining he is saying. Yet another example of not Believing what it SAYS .
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The problem you have is you miss the part were Paul says that these other gospels are anathema.

There is only one Gospel Jesus and Paul fully agree. If Jesus taught a different gospel than Paul you are saying Jesus teaching is Anathema.
 
K

KingdomBrat

Banned
#156
Oct 19, 2020
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#156
John146 said:
The Jews were looking forward to the coming of their Messiah, what we see as the second coming of the King of kings and Lord of lords, not a suffering servant come to die for the sins of the world.
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Amen!

Remember, when Judas learned Jesus was not there to thwart the Romans, Judas went to the High Priest and set up the [betrayal]. They all wanted a Victorious Messiah, not the One going to [Save] their ENEMIES souls too!
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#157
Aug 3, 2018
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#157
BrightBreezyMorning said:
Listen, God sent us Jesus as the "teacher" not Paul, and yet, Paul seems to have been ordained through Jesus and the Holy Spirit to give us good teachings.
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2 Timothy 1:11 - [Paul writes]

"to which *I* was appointed [G5087] herald, and apostle, and teacher."



[the question being, do we believe that, or not?]
 
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John146

Senior Member
#158
Jan 13, 2016
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#158
PennEd said:
That wasn't the question presented. The question presented was whether Jesus preached a different Gospel than Paul.

I just showed you where they preached the same. That no one believed, prior to His death and resurrection is irrelevant to that question.
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Jesus prophesied of things to come concerning the cross. His disciples had no clue because it was hid. Question then, what message was the disciples preaching prior to their understanding of the cross?
 
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Guojing

Banned
#159
Jan 12, 2019
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#159
phil36 said:
The problem you have is you miss the part were Paul says that these other gospels are anathema.

There is only one Gospel Jesus and Paul fully agree. If Jesus taught a different gospel than Paul you are saying Jesus teaching is Anathema.
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You are not getting his point.

Jesus was not sent to the gentiles, during his first coming, in the first place so he could not preaching ANY gospel to the gentiles (Ephesians 2:11-12, Matthew 15:24, romans 15:8), to be under the curse that Paul was talking about in Galatians.
 
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