People who attempt to put the church as being on the earth during the time of God's wrath don't understand the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.[/QUOTE ]
Nonsense. Of course I do. It'll be hell on earth.
There will be no ark to get on and no small city to run to, because Jesus said, the plagues of wrath are going to come upon the whole inhabited world.
Yep. And God's 10 plagues came upon the whole of Egypt, but the Jews were spared the plagues. Goshen is part of Egypt. So your opinion still has no support.
I can see that you are repeating a known teaching, because I've debated it many times before.
That's nice. It's a "known teaching" because it is supported from Scripture. Unlike the opinion about Jesus making U-turns.
The fact is that, when we became believers, we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. Therefore, we are not appointed to suffer any wrath, whether the wrath that will becoming upon the earth leading up to the Lord's returns nor the final punishment which is the lake of fire.
Paul's words in 1 Thess 5 about "not appointed to suffer wrath" wasn't about "any wrath" as you have ADDED, but was specifically contasting between salvation and the lake of fire. It's clear in the verse.
Believers are not appointed to suffer any of it.
When "it" only refers to the lake of fire, you are correct.
True believer in the church are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief," which means that we will not remain on the earth during that time of God's wrath.
This is twisting Scripture.
And there isn't any verse that says that Jesus resurrects/raptures all dead and living believers and takes them back to heaven.
Right. That's the point. No U-turns.
Rev.20:4-6 is the resurrection of the great tribulation saints, not the church.
Oh, let's be clear here. John described this resurrection as the FIRST resurrection. If there was a previous resurrection, oh, say, about 7 years prior, then this one CANNOT be called the FIRST one. Very simple. You are simply forcing words to mean what they don't mean.
Notice that this resurrection only mentions a resurrection of the dead, but does not mention the living being changed and caught up. This is because the first resurrection has phases to it.
Doesn't matter. It's still the FIRST resurrection. Please don't force words to mean what they don't mean.
* Jesus the first fruits
* The church at the Lord's appearing (dead resurrecting and the living being changed and caught up)
* The 144,000/Male Child (caught up to God's throne)
* The two witnesses
* The great tribulation saints (After the Lord returns to the earth to end the age)
All of the above fall under the first resurrection, which is in opposition to the resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years.
Yes, they do. And after Christ, all of the above are resurrected/changed at the same time.
The plain wording of 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that "those who belong to Him" are all grouped together. Not separate resurrections, as you presume.
In addition to all of this, the church as the bride, is already shown to be in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb during the time of God's wrath, where she will receive her fine linen, white and clean. Then in Rev.19:14, they are seen following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen that the bride received at the wedding.
Just like 1 Cor 15:32, Rev 19 is just as clear. The wording indicates what is ABOUT TO HAPPEN, not what happened 7 years prior.
In further support that the church returns with the Lord, we have the following:
"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb (Armageddon), but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
Sure. All the Church that have previously died. Yes, they will be in heaven and will come with Christ when He appears at the SECOND Advent.
"Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” - Jude 14
Yep. Nothing about any U-turn.
In John 14:1-3, Jesus said that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us there and that He would come back to get us to take us those places, that where He is we may be also.
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
Please read these words carefully, in v.3: "I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am". It says NOTHING about going back to heaven. That's speculation or presumption.
Also, the words "I will come back" were said BEFORE Jesus died and rose again. He was referring to " coming back to heaven", obviously, since that's where He was going after His ascension.
Still nothing about a U-turn.
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