The Books of Enoch.

[luigi]

Ok understand yet the point is sons of God also speaks of gods, angels and earthly man. the word "god" is not a singular meaning it is plural. So when you read gen 6 you must use what contextually fits and bring clarity to the context.

God is Love (1 John 4:7-8 & 16). As such, people who know love, are the sons of God.

 

[CS1]

Ok understand yet the point is sons of God also speaks of gods, angels and earthly man. the word "god" is not a singular meaning it is plural. So when you read gen 6 you must use what contextually fits and bring clarity to the context.

You can make Genesis 6 normative when it is descriptive.

It is asserted in the book itself that its author was Enoch, before the biblical flood.

That is not the case so you must establish the writer and the context even if there are some true statements.

many believe it was written in the Second Century and NOT by Enoch.

You can't use the writing of Enoch to make authoritative what Genesis 6 is saying to make the word say what one wants it to say.
That is why the book of Enoch was not included. it did not cut the mustard of Biblical integrity. But I can tell you what did Genesis to REV.

I can tell you what is authoritative the very words of Jesus, when he speaks about angels and the whole bible we see know another type of action done by angels that were ascribed to them in Genesis 6. Yet we see MAN doing the very same thing in the whole Bible.

You establish the writer of Enoch then we can talk about Genesis 6. You explain why Jude had to address false perverted teaching that has slipped into the church.

 

[luigi]

You can make Genesis 6 normative when it is descriptive.

It is asserted in the book itself that its author was Enoch, before the biblical flood.

That is not the case so you must establish the writer and the context even if there are some true statements.

many believe it was written in the Second Century and NOT by Enoch.

The Iliad and the Odyssey are attributed to an author named Homer. Yet whether Homer actually existed is unknown, as the stories attributed to him were carried down by storytellers until at some point they were conveyed on parchment.
The same would have applied to the book of Enoch, having been carried down by storytellers for centuries, if not millennia.

 

[CS1]

God is Love (1 John 4:7-8 & 16). As such, people who know love, are the sons of God.

that is great, however, God is also Truth, and the greatest form of demonstrating Love is, to tell the truth.

 

[luigi]

that is great, however, God is also Truth, and the greatest form of demonstrating Love is, to tell the truth.

I agree that the Lord is also truth.

 

[CS1]

The Iliad and the Odyssey are attributed to an author named Homer. Yet whether Homer actually existed is unknown, as the stories attributed to him were carried down by storytellers until at some point they were conveyed on parchment.
The same would have applied to the book of Enoch, having been carried down by storytellers for centuries, if not millennia.

Homer was not a Christian. nor was his poems inspired or authoritative Homer was a pagan, teacher of Greek mythology.

Homer was not an eyewitness of the Lord Jesus Christ nor was he a prophet. So any writing of Enoch where the person who wrote it can't be known can't be used as a primary source to establish Biblical teaching or doctrine.


That would be the same as making the Gnostic gospels of Judas, Mary, and Thomas the primary witness to Christ over the synoptic Gospels of Matthew Mark and Luke who were eyewitnesses to Christ where the gnostics were written hundreds of years after the death of John the Apostle.

yet we try to make the writing of Jude with Enoch to say what we want Genesis 6 to say when it is improper hermeneutics.

Great way to sell books and make movies though LOL.

 

[luigi]

Homer was not a Christian. nor was his poems inspired or authoritative Homer was a pagan, teacher of Greek mythology.

Homer was not an eyewitness of the Lord Jesus Christ nor was he a prophet. So any writing of Enoch where the person who wrote it can't be known can't be used as a primary source to establish Biblical teaching or doctrine.


That would be the same as making the Gnostic gospels of Judas, Mary, and Thomas the primary witness to Christ over the synoptic Gospels of Matthew Mark and Luke who were eyewitnesses to Christ where the gnostics were written hundreds of years after the death of John the Apostle.

yet we try to make the writing of Jude with Enoch to say what we want Genesis 6 to say when it is improper hermeneutics.

Great way to sell books and make movies though LOL.

I was trying to convey why the book of Enoch that we have today derives from a 2nd century BC text, and not directly back to Enoch's time when writing still did not exist. Even if there were earlier written texts on the book of Enoch, at some point prior to the earliest text, the story would had to have been conveyed by storytellers, prior to when writing existed. What about Noah and his children, do you think this story was immediately written down, or was it more likely passed down over generations of story tellers, until at some point it was written on parchment?

 

[CS1]

I was trying to convey why the book of Enoch that we have today derives from a 2nd century BC text, and not directly back to Enoch's time when writing still did not exist. Even if there were earlier written texts on the book of Enoch, at some point prior to the earliest text, the story would had to have been conveyed by storytellers, prior to when writing existed. What about Noah and his children, do you think this story was immediately written down, or was it more likely passed down over generations of story tellers, until at some point it was written on parchment?

Eyewitnesses of other Eyewitnesses. The Book of Enoch is one of tradition not one of authority it doesn't meet the contextual criticism
needed to use for establishing Biblical narrative.

The Book of Enoch doesn't measure up.

 

[luigi]

Eyewitnesses of other Eyewitnesses. The Book of Enoch is one of tradition not one of authority it doesn't meet the contextual criticism
needed to use for establishing Biblical narrative.

The Book of Enoch doesn't measure up.

It is only your opinion that the book of Enoch doesn't measure up. Besides Enoch several mentions in the bible; much of what appears in the book of Enoch also appears in other books of the Bible, including the book of Revelation. This means that the Lord reiterates data in the book of Revelation that appears in the book of Enoch. That measures up to me.

 

[CS1]

I was trying to convey why the book of Enoch that we have today derives from a 2nd century BC text, and not directly back to Enoch's time when writing still did not exist. Even if there were earlier written texts on the book of Enoch, at some point prior to the earliest text, the story would had to have been conveyed by storytellers, prior to when writing existed. What about Noah and his children, do you think this story was immediately written down, or was it more likely passed down over generations of story tellers, until at some point it was written on parchment?

it is one of the Apocrypha writings which means "Hidden". Although there is some truthful statements not all of its writings are true.

This is the issue Jude was speaking about when he said "Balaam's error." the truth mixed with lies is not of God. Balaam did just that.

Apparently, some used the "writings of Enoch to mislead the people into a false spirituality of the Christian faith. Like the Gnostics loved to do.

 

[luigi]

it is one of the Apocrypha writings which means "Hidden". Although there is some truthful statements not all of its writings are true.

This is the issue Jude was speaking about when he said "Balaam's error." the truth mixed with lies is not of God. Balaam did just that.

Apparently, some used the "writings of Enoch to mislead the people into a false spirituality of the Christian faith. Like the Gnostics loved to do.

That's why there is no book of Balaam.

 

[CS1]

It is only your opinion that the book of Enoch doesn't measure up. Besides Enoch several mentions in the bible; much of what appears in the book of Enoch also appears in other books of the Bible, including the book of Revelation. This means that the Lord reiterates data in the book of Revelation that appears in the book of Enoch. That measures up to me.

Actually, it is not Unless your a catholic, the book of Enoch doesn't measure up for the most Biblical point.

1. the author was not Enoch nor do we know
2. There are untruth in the Book or contradictions with Eyewitnesses
3. it was highly embraced by the Gnostics which they were rejected. Like the Gospels of Judas etc..
4. the person who wrote the book of Enoch used his name to make the writing more authoritative hiding behind the name that was well-known

 

[CS1]

That's why there is no book of Balaam.

There is a Numbers 24 chapter

 

[CS1]

I was trying to convey why the book of Enoch that we have today derives from a 2nd century BC text, and not directly back to Enoch's time when writing still did not exist. Even if there were earlier written texts on the book of Enoch, at some point prior to the earliest text, the story would had to have been conveyed by storytellers, prior to when writing existed. What about Noah and his children, do you think this story was immediately written down, or was it more likely passed down over generations of story tellers, until at some point it was written on parchment?

Comparison of books of Jude and Enoch
While the book is fascinating to read, it is important to note that the first book of Enoch is not Scripture. That is, the book is not inspired by God. The book was quoted in the Apocryphal book of Baruch, and in several early church manuscripts: Barnabas 16:5, Idolatry 15:6 (Tertullian), and Eccl. Proph 3 (Clement of Alexandria). Some have speculated that Jude 14-15 is a quote from the book of Enoch and concluded that Jude regarded Enoch as Scripture. The following two quotes compare Jude 14-15 to the suspected passage in the book of Enoch.

Jude 14-15

. . . Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him. (NASB) Jude 14-15​

Enoch 1:9
. . . Behold, he will arrive with ten million of the holy ones in order to execute judgment upon all. He will destroy the wicked ones and censure all flesh on account of everything that they have done, that which the sinners and the wicked ones committed against him. – Enoch 1:9[5]

Upon examination of these two texts, the reader will note that Jude refers to “thousands” of angels, but Enoch refers to “millions.” This could appear to be significant, but the Greek word in Jude that is translated as “thousands” is myrias. It literally means “ten thousand” when used in the singular. When the Greek word is plural, it means “innumerable.” Balz and Schneider state,

myrias “appears 8 times in the NT: in the literal sense, Acts 19:19 . . .; in the sense of myriads/thousands/tens if thousands (without further specification of the exact number).”[6]

Note that the Greek word, myrias, is plural in Jude. In R. H. Charles’ Greek text of 1 Enoch myrias appears.[7] It should be noted that R. H. Charles has written many books about the book of Enoch. He has supplied a Greek text of Enoch. The Greek text supplied by him has myrias in the plural. This means the Greek texts of Jude 14-15 and Enoch 1:9 both contain myrias and the apparent difference of “thousands” and “ten million” is due to differences in translation of the same word. The difference is not real since the Greek word is identical.

Careful examination of the two passages reveals some significant differences, however. First, Jude says that God will “convict” all of the ungodly, but Enoch says that they will be “destroyed.” In the Greek language the words for convict and destroy are different. Therefore, this is a significant difference. There are other significant differences such as Jude says, “harsh things” but Enoch does not. Jude says, “spoken against” but Enoch says, “committed against him.” A comparison of the two passages reveal that the Greek text of Jude has 29 words but the text supplied by R. H. Charles has 36 words.

Therefore, it is inaccurate to conclude that Jude just copied Enoch. It is important to notice that Jude does not quote the first book of Enoch but simply reports that Enoch “prophesied, saying.” That is, Jude is not citing the book of Enoch but the prophet Enoch.

It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying . . . Jude 14 (NASB)​

Book of Jude Is Scripture

Since the book of Jude was written by Jude under the influence of God the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:21), we conclude that the book of Jude is truth. It does not matter if Jude knew about the non-canonical (non-biblical) source.

What is important is that God the Holy Spirit guided Jude to write truth because God is truthful (2 Peter 1:20-21; 2 Timothy 3:16-17; Hebrews 6:18).

Therefore the first book of Enoch is wrong with regard to some facts and Jude can be trusted. Because Jude quoted the prophet Enoch we can know what happened historically.

Book of Enoch Is Not Scripture

The book of Enoch was never referred to by Jesus or any of the New Testament writers as Scripture, and the book was not included in the New Testament by the apostles. It is commonly misunderstood that the content of the Bible evolved over time.

But the New Testament clearly tells us that the apostles were identifying Scripture as it was being written (2 Peter 3:14-16; cf. 1 Timothy 5:18 and Luke 10:7 ). The New Testament books were being distributed by the apostles to the various churches to be read (Galatians 6:11; Colossians 4:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:27; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 3:14). By the time the apostles died, the New Testament had been written and its books were known. The Muratorian Fragment and several of the early fathers have left us a list of books that were identified as belonging to the New Testament. The book of Enoch was never included. Some books were challenged later but never with success.

You asked the question, “Why isn’t this book included in the Bible?”

The answer is that Jesus and the apostles never called it Scripture.

It is important to note that a few early church fathers highly valued the book of Enoch, but they never referred to it as Scripture. Therefore, we cannot view it as authoritative since it is not the Word of God.

 

[luigi]

There is a Numbers 24 chapter

Yes and Numbers 22:32 shows Balaam's error. There is no error of Enoch.

 

[CS1]

Yes and Numbers 22:32 shows Balaam's error. There is no error of Enoch.

there is no authoritative word of Enoch either

 

[SophieT]

I agree I assure you I will not change anyone's mind. But I think we do need to ask why is it not so clear?

it is my understanding the Bible is a snapshot in time at that time and things said were recorded and said in the context of the time they were done.

in Genesis six chronologically man was still a relatively new creation and seen closer to what God made than not " a son of God more than the daughters of men who were outside the relationship with God. Those peoples may be from the line of Cain,


I think Genesis six is brings distinction from the ungodly men and the godly men as Noah was, and used.

I do not quite follow what it is that you are saying

You say 'snapshot' in time but even Genesis is prerecorded history BEFORE mankind created by God existed. If men were closer to what God made in Genesis, then why did God regret He had made mankind and wished to rid the earth of them?

And you are suggesting that women were outside of the relationship with God? Did I understand you to say that correctly?

anyway, there yah go

 

[luigi]

Comparison of books of Jude and Enoch
While the book is fascinating to read, it is important to note that the first book of Enoch is not Scripture. That is, the book is not inspired by God. The book was quoted in the Apocryphal book of Baruch, and in several early church manuscripts: Barnabas 16:5, Idolatry 15:6 (Tertullian), and Eccl. Proph 3 (Clement of Alexandria). Some have speculated that Jude 14-15 is a quote from the book of Enoch and concluded that Jude regarded Enoch as Scripture. The following two quotes compare Jude 14-15 to the suspected passage in the book of Enoch.

Jude 14-15

. . . Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him. (NASB) Jude 14-15​

Enoch 1:9
. . . Behold, he will arrive with ten million of the holy ones in order to execute judgment upon all. He will destroy the wicked ones and censure all flesh on account of everything that they have done, that which the sinners and the wicked ones committed against him. – Enoch 1:9[5]

Upon examination of these two texts, the reader will note that Jude refers to “thousands” of angels, but Enoch refers to “millions.” This could appear to be significant, but the Greek word in Jude that is translated as “thousands” is myrias. It literally means “ten thousand” when used in the singular. When the Greek word is plural, it means “innumerable.” Balz and Schneider state,

myrias “appears 8 times in the NT: in the literal sense, Acts 19:19 . . .; in the sense of myriads/thousands/tens if thousands (without further specification of the exact number).”[6]

Note that the Greek word, myrias, is plural in Jude. In R. H. Charles’ Greek text of 1 Enoch myrias appears.[7] It should be noted that R. H. Charles has written many books about the book of Enoch. He has supplied a Greek text of Enoch. The Greek text supplied by him has myrias in the plural. This means the Greek texts of Jude 14-15 and Enoch 1:9 both contain myrias and the apparent difference of “thousands” and “ten million” is due to differences in translation of the same word. The difference is not real since the Greek word is identical.

Careful examination of the two passages reveals some significant differences, however. First, Jude says that God will “convict” all of the ungodly, but Enoch says that they will be “destroyed.” In the Greek language the words for convict and destroy are different. Therefore, this is a significant difference. There are other significant differences such as Jude says, “harsh things” but Enoch does not. Jude says, “spoken against” but Enoch says, “committed against him.” A comparison of the two passages reveal that the Greek text of Jude has 29 words but the text supplied by R. H. Charles has 36 words.

Therefore, it is inaccurate to conclude that Jude just copied Enoch. It is important to notice that Jude does not quote the first book of Enoch but simply reports that Enoch “prophesied, saying.” That is, Jude is not citing the book of Enoch but the prophet Enoch.

It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying . . . Jude 14 (NASB)​

Book of Jude Is Scripture

Since the book of Jude was written by Jude under the influence of God the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:21), we conclude that the book of Jude is truth. It does not matter if Jude knew about the non-canonical (non-biblical) source.

What is important is that God the Holy Spirit guided Jude to write truth because God is truthful (2 Peter 1:20-21; 2 Timothy 3:16-17; Hebrews 6:18).

Therefore the first book of Enoch is wrong with regard to some facts and Jude can be trusted. Because Jude quoted the prophet Enoch we can know what happened historically.

Book of Enoch Is Not Scripture

The book of Enoch was never referred to by Jesus or any of the New Testament writers as Scripture, and the book was not included in the New Testament by the apostles. It is commonly misunderstood that the content of the Bible evolved over time.

But the New Testament clearly tells us that the apostles were identifying Scripture as it was being written (2 Peter 3:14-16; cf. 1 Timothy 5:18 and Luke 10:7 ). The New Testament books were being distributed by the apostles to the various churches to be read (Galatians 6:11; Colossians 4:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:27; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 3:14). By the time the apostles died, the New Testament had been written and its books were known. The Muratorian Fragment and several of the early fathers have left us a list of books that were identified as belonging to the New Testament. The book of Enoch was never included. Some books were challenged later but never with success.

You asked the question, “Why isn’t this book included in the Bible?”

The answer is that Jesus and the apostles never called it Scripture.

It is important to note that a few early church fathers highly valued the book of Enoch, but they never referred to it as Scripture. Therefore, we cannot view it as authoritative since it is not the Word of God.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Enoch I:9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones to execute judgment upon all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.


Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Enoch XCIII:16 And the first heaven shall depart and pass away, And a new heaven shall appear, And all the powers of the heavens shall give sevenfold light.

There are many more correlations in the book of Enoch with other scriptures throughout the bible.

 

[CS1]

I do not quite follow what it is that you are saying

You say 'snapshot' in time but even Genesis is prerecorded history BEFORE mankind created by God existed. If men were closer to what God made in Genesis, then why did God regret He had made mankind and wished to rid the earth of them?

And you are suggesting that women were outside of the relationship with God? Did I understand you to say that correctly?

anyway, there yah go

the point of "snapshot" is for example Matthew, Mark, and Luke say many of the something yet they are not exactly the same. each has different things they saw or did not see or recorded.

it is known when the word of God says Man also includes women. Genesis is History to use but the Book of Beginnings for man not God

 

[luigi]

Enoch I:6 And the high mountains shall be shaken, and the high hills shall be made low...
Isaiah 2:14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,
Isaiah 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Enoch I:7 And the earth shall be wholly rent asunder, And all that is upon the earth shall perish, and there shall be a judgment upon all (men).
Isaiah 24:19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Enoch I:8 But with the righteous He will make peace, And will protect the elect, And mercy shall be upon them. And they shall all belong to God, And they shall be prospered, And they shall all be blessed. And he will keep them all, And light shall appear unto them, And He will make peace with them.
Isaiah 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Malachi 3:16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

The correlations above are those I found just in the first chapter in the book of Enoch.