Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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It is nothing short of the root of the issue.
That's self-defeating.

Here's your comment: "If you are in an apostate denomination you will receive only the teachings of apostate teachers. In that case it is wholly fitting that women be ordained as pastors in such affiliations. Most of them will ordain single men without hesitation. This is to their shame for they should know better."

You say that apostate denominations are the root of the problem, but you fail to explain how these denominations came to believe that either women or single men are eligible for ordination in the first place. You have a chicken and egg problem.

Of course, it couldn't possibly be that you reject outright any interpretation but your own, and because of that, your only option is to paint everyone else with the same broad brush.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
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I know what you want the scripture to say but that is not what it says. Pastors are to be married, the husband of one wife, not single men.

1 Cor 7 is addressing divorce which God never ordained. There are more distractions and temptations for single men that for married men.
That is directly contradictory to Paul's own words in 1 Corinthians 7:32-33

But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,

You're flailing, and the incoherence of your position is showing.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
I know what you want the scripture to say but that is not what it says. Pastors are to be married, the husband of one wife, not single men.

1 Cor 7 is addressing divorce which God never ordained. There are more distractions and temptations for single men that for married men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
You have repeatedly dodged the question about whether he MUST have kids. Unless I missed your response.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
That's self-defeating.

Here's your comment: "If you are in an apostate denomination you will receive only the teachings of apostate teachers. In that case it is wholly fitting that women be ordained as pastors in such affiliations. Most of them will ordain single men without hesitation. This is to their shame for they should know better."

You say that apostate denominations are the root of the problem, but you fail to explain how these denominations came to believe that either women or single men are eligible for ordination in the first place. You have a chicken and egg problem.

Of course, it couldn't possibly be that you reject outright any interpretation but your own, and because of that, your only option is to paint everyone else with the same broad brush.
Exactly. He is not exegeting his scriptures to support his suppositions.


I know what you want the scripture to say but that is not what it says. Pastors are to be married, the husband of one wife, not single men.

1 Cor 7 is addressing divorce which God never ordained. There are more distractions and temptations for single men that for married men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
That is directly contradictory to Paul's own words in 1 Corinthians 7:32-33

But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,

You're flailing, and the incoherence of your position is showing.
Roger,

The reason I keep engaging with you is not to provoke you, or to argue with you. I love you and though I do not know you I am assuming that you really believe that your interpretation is the correct one. And if so you should stick to it, howbeit you should be able to give a reason for your interpretations that will convince others that you have interpreted the scriptures correctly.

I was hoping you would bust out with some John MacArthur type of hermeneutics and present your side of the argument.

You don't seem to be in the mood to do that, so I will leave you alone.

Maybe someone else that agrees with you can present their exegesis and take up the other side of the debate. I think I have presented enough for the "If" he is married, (then only to One wife, ) interpretation.


Someone needs to present their reasoning why they think it means that he MUST be married using exegesis not slandering denominations and things that are not a part of exegesis.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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That is directly contradictory to Paul's own words in 1 Corinthians 7:32-33

But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,

You're flailing, and the incoherence of your position is showing.
You are not being honest with yourself. Paul is not speaking of pastors or deacons. He is addressing single men in general who wish to walk in paths of righteousness. It is noted that Paul is speaking in his personal authority not with the authority of Holy Spirit inspiration.

Your continuing resistance to scripture would be astounding but scripture has predicted that it will be that way in the end times.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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Exactly. He is not exegeting his scriptures to support his suppositions.

Someone needs to present their reasoning why they think it means that he MUST be married using exegesis not slandering denominations and things that are not a part of exegesis.
One cannot exegete scripture with persons who do not believe scripture.

It is not slander to expose the anti scriptural teachings of virtually all of the main denominations.

You need not concern yourself with my feelings there is only one that you must honor in your life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
S

Scribe

Guest
One cannot exegete scripture with persons who do not believe scripture.

It is not slander to expose the anti scriptural teachings of virtually all of the main denominations.

You need not concern yourself with my feelings there is only one that you must honor in your life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Try to remember that we are posting for all readers. It is a community effort. That way you can attempt to edify those that you think might believe scriptures. :)
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
13,797
113
You are not being honest with yourself. Paul is not speaking of pastors or deacons. He is addressing single men in general who wish to walk in paths of righteousness. It is noted that Paul is speaking in his personal authority not with the authority of Holy Spirit inspiration.

Your continuing resistance to scripture would be astounding but scripture has predicted that it will be that way in the end times.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
You directly contradict Scripture, and you claim I resist it? That is hypocrisy.

As for your ad hominem comments, they just make you a clanging cymbal.
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
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Have you considered that Jesus Christ himself is the shepherd of all, and the church is his body? Pastors are not the head of the church; they're all one as members in the body of Christ. Hence, you could call a female shepherd of her flock minister:

Notice here (Exodus 2:16) that the seven daughters of their father Jethro tend to his flock. It's what the churches are supposed to do.
Of course I have.

Have you then considered the exact, literal words said in 1 Timothy 3:1-2.............
"This is a true saying, if a MAN desire the office of a bishop, HE desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

Do you think that those words from God are to be ignored because we WANT to have woman as a Pastor?

What then if you do, do you base that idea on?

Is there a Scripture that allow you to ignore a direct direction from God?
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
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I agree with your exegesis and use of the Greek. What I do not agree with is your total failure to consider the context!!

What is the whole book of 1 Timothy about? It is a private letter from Paul, who mentors Timothy, who is in charge of the church in Ephesus. He is probably referring to specific incidents which are disturbing the church, like the priestesses of Artemis, who loved to be in control, and were probably causing issues, just like Paul encountered with Demetrius and other silver smiths, who were angry that people were converting to Christianity, and cutting into the incomes of those men.

Artemis was not just any goddess, either! Her devotees built Artemis a large temple in Ephesus, which was so beautiful it was one of the 7 wonders of the ancient world. Pilgrims came from everywhere to worship her, and engage in ritual cult sex with the so-called priestesses. Paul was literally overthrowing an entire culture, and he got thrown in jail for it, even though he was released unharmed.

So Paul knew the culture, how wicked Ephesus was, and was offering some specific ways for Timothy in Ephesus to deal with the unruly people. He also did not mention this issue in public letters to the churches in other places. Instead, he deals with specific issues in those churches, like the man in Corinth that Paul points out for sexual immorality which has ended by 2 Corinthians.

He also had strong words for the men in Ephesus. Polygamy was very common in the OT, and certainly in the early part of the 1st century AD. But that was never God's plan. But Paul thought it important enough to bring to Timothy's attention to disqualify men as leaders who had multiple wives!

"husband of one wife" means not having more than one wife. Polyandry is not mentioned, because it was not a popular practice, in the ancient world. There were usually less men in a primitive culture, because of death by war, and because men don't live as long as women, which is statistically correlated today. (When I was a chaplain in LTC, there were 10 elderly, widowed women for every elderly widowed men!)

So, Paul says no to polygamy for men. Which is a rule still being followed today, and not just by leaders.

If you want to use Greek, that is great. But don't post 3 words and them twist them to fit your preconceived ideas about leadership by only men, which contradicts so many other verses.

In actual fact, there really are no verses about the qualifications for a pastor or Shepherd. Paul continues to Eph 3:11 to talk about various offices, and it is loosely translated as "pastor" in many English versions. In fact, it is ποιμένας or poimenas, which means "shepherd" in Greek. Paul only gives qualifications for overseers, or elders in Ephesians. That is because Timothy doesn't need to know the qualification for pastors, because he is the pastor! Which definitely brings out the non-universal aspect of what Paul is saying to Timothy. Paul is giving guidelines to choose people with the right qualifications for the church in 1st century Ephesus.

I attended a church in northern BC, which only allowed men to be elders. There were a lot of other rules, like the man couldn't be divorced, and he had to have his family under tight control. When we needed new elders, the old board met and concluded there was not one man in the church who was qualified to be an elder. When I asked why didn't they find a woman who could do it, and they conceded that they had examined every woman, and none met the qualifications. There was one woman who might have made a good elder, but her husband was unsaved, even though they had a good relationship. Although I think the general rules for behaviour snd being a godly example in 1 Tim 3 are good rules.
My dear......you can disagree with me all you want to. I did not have any input on 1 Timothy where the CONTEXT of 1 Timothy 3:1-2 is .......a MAN!

"This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

The CONTEXT is that A MAN must be a one woman MAN!

Now you can read it in Greek, English, Russian, French, Hebrew......."A MAN" means .....A MAN. A MASCULINE human being!!!

Now I suggest that since you do not like what God said....you take it up with Him when you see him and please remember, I just read what He said and accept it......no more and no less.
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
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Much ado abut nothing I am afraid as it does not say that the leader of the church is a pastor. It says he is an Elder. How many more do you need? But feel free to believe what you want to. No skin off my nose. Having studied the subject for years and years and years and years and written a dissertation for a Ph.D. I think I know what I am talking about.

However I am fully aware that some people cannot stomach serious study and much prefer their opinion than the proven exegesis of a subject by many, many educated and literate theologians who have devoted a lifetime searching the scriptures to show themselves approve to God.
You are not the only person who has done lots of study my friend.

However.....no amount of study changes or explains away what is litrerally said by God in 1 Timothy 3:1-3 .......
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; "

It says what it says and no amount of study or PHD or DR. or any other names can change what God said.

YOU either accept it as it is written.....or you STUDY the ways to make it say what YOU want it to say.

YES..........it is just that simple!
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
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That's called role reversal. It was a woman who washed the feet of Christ, but this is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. And if you support women preachers, you just made the Bible irrelevant. Now each one may do what is right in their own eyes. As in the times of the Judges. And the end result was judgments on Israel.
And that is the absolute bottom line!

Everyone one of us will be held accountable for what we do in this life. If you are comfortable in ignoring the literal directions from God on this subject ......then go right ahead and believe what you WANT to believe!
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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Of course I have.

Have you then considered the exact, literal words said in 1 Timothy 3:1-2.............
"This is a true saying, if a MAN desire the office of a bishop, HE desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

Do you think that those words from God are to be ignored because we WANT to have woman as a Pastor?

What then if you do, do you base that idea on?

Is there a Scripture that allow you to ignore a direct direction from God?
Yes you either believe the bible is the word of God or you believe it contains the word of God.

If the bible is the word of God then our obligation is to receive it and obey it.

If the bible contains the word of God then we need only pick and choose that which suits us.

Unbelief makes for carnal Christians.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
885
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Exactly. He is not exegeting his scriptures to support his suppositions.





Roger,

The reason I keep engaging with you is not to provoke you, or to argue with you. I love you and though I do not know you I am assuming that you really believe that your interpretation is the correct one. And if so you should stick to it, howbeit you should be able to give a reason for your interpretations that will convince others that you have interpreted the scriptures correctly.

I was hoping you would bust out with some John MacArthur type of hermeneutics and present your side of the argument.

You don't seem to be in the mood to do that, so I will leave you alone.

Maybe someone else that agrees with you can present their exegesis and take up the other side of the debate. I think I have presented enough for the "If" he is married, (then only to One wife, ) interpretation.


Someone needs to present their reasoning why they think it means that he MUST be married using exegesis not slandering denominations and things that are not a part of exegesis.
Personally, I find it very difficult for anyone to read 1 Timothy 3:1-2.............
"This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach"...........

to then argue that what is printed right in front of your eyes means something other that what it literally says.

Hermeneutics are not needed.
Context is not needed.
Exegesis is not needed.

The only thing needed is the ability to READ!

"This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach".

That either mean ONE of TWO things.

1. God said it and I accept it as such.
2. God said it and I DO NOT ACCEPT it as such and I want it to mean what I want it to mean.

YES. It is just that simple my friend!
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
885
183
43
Yes you either believe the bible is the word of God or you believe it contains the word of God.

If the bible is the word of God then our obligation is to receive it and obey it.

If the bible contains the word of God then we need only pick and choose that which suits us.

Unbelief makes for carnal Christians.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
That IS and always has been the case Roger.

All this back and forth is actually a smoke screen from liberal believers who simply do not want to accept the written Word of God as the Written Word of God.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
Personally, I find it very difficult for anyone to read 1 Timothy 3:1-2.............
"This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach"...........

to then argue that what is printed right in front of your eyes means something other that what it literally says.

Hermeneutics are not needed.
Context is not needed.
Exegesis is not needed.

The only thing needed is the ability to READ!

"This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach".

That either mean ONE of TWO things.

1. God said it and I accept it as such.
2. God said it and I DO NOT ACCEPT it as such and I want it to mean what I want it to mean.

YES. It is just that simple my friend!
You are correct. It clearly says "the husband of one wife," It does not say he must be married. The first time I read it I understood it. He cannot have more than one wife if he is married. I get it. Being a polygamist would bot be being blameless.

What is strange to me is why someone would think it means he MUST be married. That is not what it says so it is IMPOSSIBLE to read those words. IMPOSSIBLE. Just read it.

And of course I know from what Paul said in 1 Cor 7 that he would not contradict him self and say that any Christian MUST be married leader or otherwise.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
Of course I have.

Have you then considered the exact, literal words said in 1 Timothy 3:1-2.............
"This is a true saying, if a MAN desire the office of a bishop, HE desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

Do you think that those words from God are to be ignored because we WANT to have woman as a Pastor?

What then if you do, do you base that idea on?

Is there a Scripture that allow you to ignore a direct direction from God?
Did you also read what he said ...One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;?

Will you be consistent with your method of interpretation and insist that he MUST have children also?

Or will you also dodge that question because it ruins your logic about "Must be married?"
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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You are correct. It clearly says "the husband of one wife," It does not say he must be married. The first time I read it I understood it. He cannot have more than one wife if he is married. I get it. Being a polygamist would bot be being blameless.

What is strange to me is why someone would think it means he MUST be married. That is not what it says so it is IMPOSSIBLE to read those words. IMPOSSIBLE. Just read it.

And of course I know from what Paul said in 1 Cor 7 that he would not contradict him self and say that any Christian MUST be married leader or otherwise.
You create a contradiction because you will not receive the word of God as it is written.

1 Cor 7 and 1 Tim 3 are on different subjects. 1 Tim is speaking of those who desire to pastor a church. 1 Cor 7 is addressing a very carnal group of believers.

If God is calling someone to pastor a church God will send them the appropriate wife to support them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
Did you also read what he said ...One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;?

Will you be consistent with your method of interpretation and insist that he MUST have children also?

Or will you also dodge that question because it ruins your logic about "Must be married?"
Well I do not know all the pastors in the world but the ones I do know have children. Children are an evidence of a healthy marriage.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
S

Scribe

Guest
You create a contradiction because you will not receive the word of God as it is written.

1 Cor 7 and 1 Tim 3 are on different subjects. 1 Tim is speaking of those who desire to pastor a church. 1 Cor 7 is addressing a very carnal group of believers.

If God is calling someone to pastor a church God will send them the appropriate wife to support them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Sorry, that is not going to convince anyone.