Not By Works
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attaching that obedience to salvation.
that is lordship salvation, saying that faith must be proven by proper obedience.
obedience is a natural by-product of faith, not a maintainer of faith.
i can speak to this personally.
i grew up in church, believed that God created earth, man, nature, etc,, that Mary had a virgin birth of Jesus, that He died and rose again, the " Christian basics", but it did not mean anything to me, and i did and behaved as i pleased, and God was not a part of my day to day life and thought process.
but, when i accepted Christ at age 26, right and wrong mattered , doing right mattered, confessing sins and asking for forgiveness mattered.
it mattered because i had faith, not to prove or maintain that faith.
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I really like the way you put that, to be clothed in His Righteousness. It is NOT our righteous. I am sure that those who use the term "License to Sin" are into trying to create their righteousness. THEY WILL BE ASHAMED and DISAPPOINTED.
Romans 3:10 (ESV)
10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;"
Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NKJV)
20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.
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If the Bible says a lack of obedience is PROOF that a person doesn't know Jesus, who are you or me to argue with that?
Please open your Bible to 1 John 2:3-4 KJV and read it. It plainly says precisely that which you keep denying: that a person who says they know Jesus but refuses to obey His commandments "is a liar and the truth is not in Him."
Of course obedience isn't the maintainer of faith, but do you know what is? SURRENDER - we must daily choose to surrender our will to God's will AND CHOICE IS NOT WORKS, IT IS THOUGHT. That's why Jesus said we must continually "abide in the Vine" lest we wither as dead branches on the ground and get cast into the fire.
Maybe you should read Hebrews 11 where there is example after example of people who proved their faith by their works. James says faith without works is dead, and also clarifies that claiming to have faith without works is not the way, but showing faith by our works is. That's why OSAS is so appealing: it's a means to obtain by dead faith that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life. Your problem with the necessity of proving faith by our works is not with me, it's with Scripture.
Please open your Bible to 1 John 2:3-4 KJV and read it. It plainly says precisely that which you keep denying: that a person who says they know Jesus but refuses to obey His commandments "is a liar and the truth is not in Him."
Of course obedience isn't the maintainer of faith, but do you know what is? SURRENDER - we must daily choose to surrender our will to God's will AND CHOICE IS NOT WORKS, IT IS THOUGHT. That's why Jesus said we must continually "abide in the Vine" lest we wither as dead branches on the ground and get cast into the fire.
Maybe you should read Hebrews 11 where there is example after example of people who proved their faith by their works. James says faith without works is dead, and also clarifies that claiming to have faith without works is not the way, but showing faith by our works is. That's why OSAS is so appealing: it's a means to obtain by dead faith that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life. Your problem with the necessity of proving faith by our works is not with me, it's with Scripture.
"VCO, post: 4506626:
I really like the way you put that, to be clothed in His Righteousness. It is NOT our righteous. I am sure that those who use the term "License to Sin" are into trying to create their righteousness. THEY WILL BE ASHAMED and DISAPPOINTED.
VCO said:
Romans 3:10 (ESV)
10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;"
Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NKJV)
20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.
Now come on gb9, you are as bad as the ANTI-OSAS believers. Ignorance is not an excuse for telling a LIE about LORDSHIP SALVATION, ask any one who believes in LORDSHIP SALVATION, and WE will tell you the TRUTH about our Beliefs, and it IS NOT THE WAY YOU PUT IT. I respect you too much to get mad; however your statement reeks of Denominationational biggotry.
Here is What LORDSHIP SALVATION, truly means according to Dr. John MacArthur. Yes I was Decipled by him, via his Radio Ministry, and you got it ALL WRONG, just like the Anti-OSAS people do.
Lordship Salvation, is the ONLY true GOSPEL there IS, if you teach it RIGHT. I henges on these verses and on the BIBLICAL MOTIVE FOR OBEDIENCE.
1 Corinthians 12:3 (ESV)
3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!”
and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” {AS a true CONFESSION from your Heart} except in the Holy Spirit.
Romans 10:8-10 (HCSB)
8 On the contrary, what does it say? The message is near you, in your mouth and in your heart.
This is the message of faith that we proclaim:
9 If you confess {not merely PROFESS IT,} with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” {Means you have really surrendered to HIM in your HEART out of AGAPE LOVE, making HIM Master of your LIFE,} and believe in your heart
that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.
You see it is NOT that act of professing HIM as LORD, that Equals Salvation; it IS WHY WE WANT TO DO IT, and IF it is not purely because of AGAPE LOVE FOR HIM, it is only FITHY RAGS, and not evidence that we WERE SAVED, PAST TENSE.
It is WHY WE WANT TO CONFESS what has HAPPENED in our HEART, strictly because the Holy Spirit is in our HEART bringing us to SAVING FAITH in our HEARTS.
Every single bit of genuine SALVATION is of the HOLY SPIRIT, and we do not get to pat ourselves on the back, it is WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT does in our Hearts or Human Spirits.
HE even goes a bit further with the analogy:
1 John 3:14 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers.
The one who does not agape love remains in death.
That is what Dr. John MacArthur means by Lordship Salvation.
I really like the way you put that, to be clothed in His Righteousness. It is NOT our righteous. I am sure that those who use the term "License to Sin" are into trying to create their righteousness. THEY WILL BE ASHAMED and DISAPPOINTED.
VCO said:
Romans 3:10 (ESV)
10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;"
Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NKJV)
20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.
Now come on gb9, you are as bad as the ANTI-OSAS believers. Ignorance is not an excuse for telling a LIE about LORDSHIP SALVATION, ask any one who believes in LORDSHIP SALVATION, and WE will tell you the TRUTH about our Beliefs, and it IS NOT THE WAY YOU PUT IT. I respect you too much to get mad; however your statement reeks of Denominationational biggotry.
Here is What LORDSHIP SALVATION, truly means according to Dr. John MacArthur. Yes I was Decipled by him, via his Radio Ministry, and you got it ALL WRONG, just like the Anti-OSAS people do.
Lordship Salvation, is the ONLY true GOSPEL there IS, if you teach it RIGHT. I henges on these verses and on the BIBLICAL MOTIVE FOR OBEDIENCE.
1 Corinthians 12:3 (ESV)
3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!”
and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” {AS a true CONFESSION from your Heart} except in the Holy Spirit.
Romans 10:8-10 (HCSB)
8 On the contrary, what does it say? The message is near you, in your mouth and in your heart.
This is the message of faith that we proclaim:
9 If you confess {not merely PROFESS IT,} with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” {Means you have really surrendered to HIM in your HEART out of AGAPE LOVE, making HIM Master of your LIFE,} and believe in your heart
that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.
You see it is NOT that act of professing HIM as LORD, that Equals Salvation; it IS WHY WE WANT TO DO IT, and IF it is not purely because of AGAPE LOVE FOR HIM, it is only FITHY RAGS, and not evidence that we WERE SAVED, PAST TENSE.
It is WHY WE WANT TO CONFESS what has HAPPENED in our HEART, strictly because the Holy Spirit is in our HEART bringing us to SAVING FAITH in our HEARTS.
Every single bit of genuine SALVATION is of the HOLY SPIRIT, and we do not get to pat ourselves on the back, it is WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT does in our Hearts or Human Spirits.
HE even goes a bit further with the analogy:
1 John 3:14 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers.
The one who does not agape love remains in death.
That is what Dr. John MacArthur means by Lordship Salvation.
how many times must i say this- i am NOT osas. please stop making false accusations.
and, here is a question none of you will works salvationists will answer- what is the exact percentage of sin will cause salvation to be lost?
oh, and i have read the Bible all the way through about 20 times, i know it very well.
and the commands that John spoke of in his 1st letter were " believe in the name of the Son and love one another." so, to believe is to obey.
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WOW, you got that analogy BACKWARDS.
WHAT PERCENTAGE OF YOUR SIN WAS TOTALLY FORGIVEN AND PAID FOR ON THE CROSS?
100%
John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever!
No one will snatch them out of My hand.
THAT is called GRACE!
John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
That above Post with Double John 10:27-28, was a mistake on my part, sorry, as I was not finished with the Post.
2 Timothy 2:19 (HCSB)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, having this inscription: The Lord knows those who are His, and Everyone who names the name of the Lord must turn away from unrighteousness.
Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
Romans 3:28 (GWT)
28 We conclude that a person has God's approval by faith, not by his own efforts.
Romans 8:28-30 (HCSB)
28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God: those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.
THEREFORE, He NEVER CALLED THOSE HE DID NOT FOREKNEW as TRUE CHRISTIANS. Those of the ONEs that FALL AWAY.
1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.