Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.
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Left Behind came In the 1990s, Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins took the future one man antichrist idea of Hal Lindsey, Scofield, Darby, Irving, Newman, Todd, Maitland, Bellarmine, and Ribera, and turned it into "The most successful Christian-fiction series ever." Hal Lindsey's book, The Late Great Planet Earth, was largely theological, which limited its appeal, while Left Behind is a sequence of highly imaginative novels, "overflowing with suspense, action, and adventure," a "Christian thriller," with a "label its creators could never have predicted: blockbuster success." The much respected television ministries of Jack Van Impe, Peter and Paul Lalonde, and Pastor John Hagee have all worked together to produce LEFT BEHIND: The Movie. The entire project has even caught the attention of the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal, resulting in an interview of LaHaye and Jenkins on Larry King Live. The Left Behind books have been made available on displays at WalMart, Fry's Electronics, and inside countless other stores.
that is a bit of history but if you are honest and look back in history at the origin of these teachings and theories you end up at the futurist scheme, which started about the year 1585 by the Jesuit Ribera; as a scheme, (big lie) to turn aside the Protestants application of the Apocalyptic prophecy from the Church of Rome.
Today the theory is more refined but it is still a big lie. The foundation of the secret rapture is a lie. Research it yourself honestly. the net will tell you exactly what you want if you are not honest.
that is a bit of history but if you are honest and look back in history at the origin of these teachings and theories you end up at the futurist scheme, which started about the year 1585 by the Jesuit Ribera; as a scheme, (big lie) to turn aside the Protestants application of the Apocalyptic prophecy from the Church of Rome.
Today the theory is more refined but it is still a big lie. The foundation of the secret rapture is a lie. Research it yourself honestly. the net will tell you exactly what you want if you are not honest.
Where does postrib doctrine originate??
From men that saw Israel destroyed and the Jews scattered.
That skewed prism was the setting for the postrib rapture creation.
To too it off the Catholics burned pretribbers and their writings.
So when trying to demonize pretribbers you guys get so caught up you fail to see the skewed Foley of your own skewed model
None of you unpack our verses.
Those verses do not interest you in any way.
I have put out several challenges. Nobody goes there.
From men that saw Israel destroyed and the Jews scattered.
That skewed prism was the setting for the postrib rapture creation.
To too it off the Catholics burned pretribbers and their writings.
So when trying to demonize pretribbers you guys get so caught up you fail to see the skewed Foley of your own skewed model
None of you unpack our verses.
Those verses do not interest you in any way.
I have put out several challenges. Nobody goes there.
The idea of a pretrib rapture took place back in Paul's day due to people misunderstanding something he said.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
He shouldn't even have to speak of these things because he would have told them in person when he was with them but for some reason he decides in fact to re-tell them this:
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
This is it. The idea that Christ could come suddenly without any warning before the tribulation and Antichrist etc is what started the Pre-trib concept. This one sentence will be misunderstood and the idea that Christ could come at any time, even before the tribulation happens, is born. The facts are that Christ cannot and will not just suddenly appear because there are major events that have to take place first before he arrives but those who are unsaved and spiritually blind won't know this and so the second coming will surprise them without warning as a thief in the night but not those who are awake and watching for the right signs.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
And this is the part that was missed or ignored. Christ only comes suddenly, without any warning to those who are deceived, in darkness, and are worshiping a false god in the tribulation. Christ's actual appearance will be sudden and shocking to them! But not to us!
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night
So the confusion about Christ appearing suddenly at any moment reached Paul and he wrote a second letter to explain what he meant in the first one!
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
He is saying DO NOT BE WORRIED THAT CHRIST CAN JUST SUDDENLY RETURN AND SURPRISE YOU!
Look at his words:
1. by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
That is the second coming!
2. and by our gathering together unto him
That is the rapture!
3. that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Don't be worried that the second coming and the rapture "is at hand" meaning they could happen at any moment instead of after the tribulation as Christ said in the gospels.
2Th_2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Some people think "at hand" means happened already in the past but that isn't what it means.
"at hand" is used elsewhere where the meaning is clearer:
Mat 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Of course that time had not come already in the past. It was near...same in 2 Thess where people thought the second coming was near. They did not think it had already happened. There would literally be no reason to think they missed the second coming given all of the major events that happen that day. No one will be here during the second coming and not realize it had happened due to the absolute change to the world and the changes to the lives of all peoples.
"at hand" means something that is near, not something that had already happened. It is the same when Paul wrote it. The Thess's thought Paul was saying Jesus could come as a thief in the night but he only meant that in regard to the unsaved and blinded...not the Christian watchmen.
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
All the disciples and Apostles did think they were going to live to see the second coming so the idea that the last days were coming soon is no surprise. Here the same Greek word is used but the writer is not saying the end times have already happened but is yet to come but with the implication is is near, as in near your hand or as we would say, "almost within reach". It's the same idea in 2nd Thess. When Paul is comforting them by telling them Christ will not show up as a thief in the night and surprise you. There are signs that will tell you it is very near ie: at hand or almost within reach or close.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
There are major things that happen first which will let the faithful know the return of Christ is soon! That is mainly the Tribulation and Apostasy where essentially the whole world, all religions and even Atheists, will believe in this person who will claim and seem to be God! I believe he will claim to be Jesus Christ leading so many astray.
So Paul has just said don't be worried that the second coming and rapture can happen before the tribulation and the Apostasy led by the Antichrist! IE: a pre-trib rapture is not true, right from the mouth of Paul himself.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
Now he has to remind them...but some will never let go of this "any moment" doctrine that Christ can return suddenly to "rapture the Church away".
The Bible makes it clear that there is no pre-tribulation rapture. The tribulation and the appearance of the Antichrist will come first before any rapture takes place. Scripture speaks of the same order of events elsewhere:
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Context is the second coming!
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Context is the second coming!
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
This is the second coming!
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
So, the proper order of events according to scripture:
1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30
A rapture before the tribulation is impossible according to Mat 24:29-30, and a rapture before the second coming is impossible according to 1Th 4:13-17.
So, the proper order of events according to scripture including Mat_24:29:
1. the great tribulation ends. (Mat_24:29)
2. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16, Mat_24:30)
3. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
4. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
Again we see that certain events must happen first before a rapture takes place!
The rapture refers to the time in the future when Christ will return to the earth and take believers to heaven with Him. Many churches teach that the rapture will happen secretly, referring to it as the “secret rapture.”
Is that your belief?
Some reasons why the rapture is not a secret.
1.. Soon after He was resurrected, Jesus met with a large group of His followers near Jerusalem. This meeting took place out in the open, in plain view of everyone passing by. Suddenly, Jesus’ feet left the ground as He ascended to heaven. As He did, “two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, ‘Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven’ ” (Acts 1:10, 11). The Bible even specifies that “every eye will see Him” (Revelation 1:7). Read also Matthew 24:27!
2.. The apostle Paul was quite specific in his description of the events of the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. The rapture being secret would be like sneaking up on someone while banging on pots and pans!
3.. Paul continued his inspired picture of the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, reporting that “the dead in Christ will rise first.” These believers who have died will break out of their graves simultaneously all around the planet! How many graves would this be? Let’s put it this way: Recently, the BBC published an article titled, “The world is running out of burial space.” Brace yourself for the sound of concrete breaking up all around you!
4.. After Christ breaks believers out of their graves, “We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). That means every believer will rise off the ground and meet Christ in the air together. Among this throng of people, don’t you think there will be shouts of praise and joy? Sounds like it will be hard to miss the sight and sound of it.
5.. Peter added his description of the rapture, saying that “the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat” (2 Peter 3:12). Imagine the ear-splitting spectacle of the entire sky crackling with a roaring fire and the stunning visual image of our planet’s infrastructure melting with extreme heat!
Not a secret, everyone will know when Jesus comes.. If Jesus doesn't come it is not the coming of Jesus, His Angels are constantly coming and going.
Is that your belief?
Some reasons why the rapture is not a secret.
1.. Soon after He was resurrected, Jesus met with a large group of His followers near Jerusalem. This meeting took place out in the open, in plain view of everyone passing by. Suddenly, Jesus’ feet left the ground as He ascended to heaven. As He did, “two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, ‘Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven’ ” (Acts 1:10, 11). The Bible even specifies that “every eye will see Him” (Revelation 1:7). Read also Matthew 24:27!
2.. The apostle Paul was quite specific in his description of the events of the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. The rapture being secret would be like sneaking up on someone while banging on pots and pans!
3.. Paul continued his inspired picture of the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, reporting that “the dead in Christ will rise first.” These believers who have died will break out of their graves simultaneously all around the planet! How many graves would this be? Let’s put it this way: Recently, the BBC published an article titled, “The world is running out of burial space.” Brace yourself for the sound of concrete breaking up all around you!
4.. After Christ breaks believers out of their graves, “We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). That means every believer will rise off the ground and meet Christ in the air together. Among this throng of people, don’t you think there will be shouts of praise and joy? Sounds like it will be hard to miss the sight and sound of it.
5.. Peter added his description of the rapture, saying that “the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat” (2 Peter 3:12). Imagine the ear-splitting spectacle of the entire sky crackling with a roaring fire and the stunning visual image of our planet’s infrastructure melting with extreme heat!
Not a secret, everyone will know when Jesus comes.. If Jesus doesn't come it is not the coming of Jesus, His Angels are constantly coming and going.
I agree that the second coming will come as a surprise to those that are not watching and are unprepared.
the deceived people will be so busy chasing their own desires and caring for their own lives that it will not be known to them.
As in Noahs day.
When God sent His plagues on Egypt, were they ready? No. they didn't think it would happen, even after many plagues they still refused to acknowledge God. The death of the first born sons was a shock to the Egyptians but Gods people were preparing to leave Egypt.
the deceived people will be so busy chasing their own desires and caring for their own lives that it will not be known to them.
As in Noahs day.
When God sent His plagues on Egypt, were they ready? No. they didn't think it would happen, even after many plagues they still refused to acknowledge God. The death of the first born sons was a shock to the Egyptians but Gods people were preparing to leave Egypt.
All the churches I have attended, lean towards a pre-trib rapture, millenial kingdom.
Baptist & Calvary Chapels are heavy on the "Zionist" stance of things.
It was the scripture highlighted below in bold red, that canceled the teaching of a pre-trib rapture, that teaches the Church is "Present On Earth" to witness the Antichrist revealed in 2 Thess 2:1-4 below
At this point I studied independently on the subject, and Gods word clearly teaches the Church will go through the 3.5 year tribulation, and be eye witnesses of the second coming, as Luke 21:25-28 below clearly teaches.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4KJV
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Baptist & Calvary Chapels are heavy on the "Zionist" stance of things.
It was the scripture highlighted below in bold red, that canceled the teaching of a pre-trib rapture, that teaches the Church is "Present On Earth" to witness the Antichrist revealed in 2 Thess 2:1-4 below
At this point I studied independently on the subject, and Gods word clearly teaches the Church will go through the 3.5 year tribulation, and be eye witnesses of the second coming, as Luke 21:25-28 below clearly teaches.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4KJV
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
New heavens and Earth are created after the Wicked are resurrected, sentenced, and then cast into the Lake of Fire, which is 1,000 years after the Saints are resurrected at the Second Coming:
Jeremiah:
4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light.
4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
4:25 I beheld, and, lo, [there was] no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place [was] a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, [and] by his fierce anger.
25:30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread [the grapes], against all the inhabitants of the earth.
25:31 A noise shall come [even] to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them [that are] wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
25:32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.
"..."the rest of the dead (the wicked) lived not again until the 1,000 years were finished. This (the previously mentioned resurrection of the saints) is the first resurrection."
Please open your Bible before opening your mouth Jeremiah:
4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light.
4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
4:25 I beheld, and, lo, [there was] no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place [was] a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, [and] by his fierce anger.
25:30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread [the grapes], against all the inhabitants of the earth.
25:31 A noise shall come [even] to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them [that are] wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
25:32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.
No need to create gigantic wording in bold red, its of no value.
Nothing comes to life, believers are amongst the "Living" and they reign presently now, physically dead or living as I write.
Before your eyes "Lived and Reigned"
Not "Came To Life" as the amplified children's bible claims.
Revelation 20:4KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Before your eyes "Lived and Reigned"
Not "Came To Life" as the amplified children's bible claims.
Revelation 20:4KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
I would love to believe that the Lord is going to rapture the church before the tribulation. That would be so wonderful, but the Bible will not permit me to believe that. It's a very convenient doctrine and it's a dangerous doctrine, because some people are not preparing their faith - they're not fortifying themselves for the trial ahead. That's why Peter says do not be amazed or surprised by the fiery trials that will try you as though some strange thing has happened. Like 'this wasn't suppose to happen!'
1Pe_4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
When you look at the examples in the Bible about how God works, Did the Lord save Noah from the flood or through the flood?
Saved through the trials, God didn't separate us from the trials...
Did God save the children of Israel from the Egypt plagues or were they in the world during the plagues?
Did the Lord save Joseph from his trials or did He deliver him through his trials?
Were Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego saved from the furnace or through it?
Was Daniel in the lion's den, saved from it or through it?
Christ says in Matthew 24 you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake, but he that endures to the middle? to the beginning? or to the end?
He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved. Consistently all the way through the Bible, it's telling us that there's going to be a time of trouble.
1Pe_4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
When you look at the examples in the Bible about how God works, Did the Lord save Noah from the flood or through the flood?
Saved through the trials, God didn't separate us from the trials...
Did God save the children of Israel from the Egypt plagues or were they in the world during the plagues?
Did the Lord save Joseph from his trials or did He deliver him through his trials?
Were Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego saved from the furnace or through it?
Was Daniel in the lion's den, saved from it or through it?
Christ says in Matthew 24 you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake, but he that endures to the middle? to the beginning? or to the end?
He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved. Consistently all the way through the Bible, it's telling us that there's going to be a time of trouble.
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The post trib & mid trib models originated after the pre trib industry took flight.
Before the church was permeated with the institutional bias of the new pretrib doctrine
there was no need to use these any of these terms.
Christians only had to speak of the second coming before pretribulation rapture teachers started to divide scripture,
confuse believers and institute their massive business for itching ears.
Before the church was permeated with the institutional bias of the new pretrib doctrine
there was no need to use these any of these terms.
Christians only had to speak of the second coming before pretribulation rapture teachers started to divide scripture,
confuse believers and institute their massive business for itching ears.
A massive business. For a single doctrine.
They must be desperate to keep the cash flowing as they know the younger generation is abandoning this liberal, big-church lie.
"The Pre-Trib Research Center (PTRC) is committed to the study, proclamation, teaching, and defense of the pre-tribulation rapture (pre-70th"
https://www.pre-trib.org/
They must be desperate to keep the cash flowing as they know the younger generation is abandoning this liberal, big-church lie.
"The Pre-Trib Research Center (PTRC) is committed to the study, proclamation, teaching, and defense of the pre-tribulation rapture (pre-70th"
https://www.pre-trib.org/
FreeGrace2 said:
Listen, EVERY believer's soul remains alive, even after physical death. You don't believe in soul sleep, do you? Paul was clear about physical death. "Absent from the body, face to face with the Lord". 2 Cor 5:6,8
Can you explain it or not?
If you think this answers my question, it doesn't come close.
please define how you mean "dead" here.
Listen, EVERY believer's soul remains alive, even after physical death. You don't believe in soul sleep, do you? Paul was clear about physical death. "Absent from the body, face to face with the Lord". 2 Cor 5:6,8
Can you explain it or not?
If you think this answers my question, it doesn't come close.
please define how you mean "dead" here.