Baptism of fire

[Pilgrimshope]

Matthew 13:36-43 is the parable of the wheat and tares explained.

Jesus gives us the benefit of explaining in plain language what His parable means. It's there for you to read and understand, but I can't read it for you.

Under absolutely no circumstances is it referring to a refining process by which people increase in levels of purity.

The parable is about individual people who are either righteous or wicked. Holy Spirit baptism for children of the King, fire baptism for children of the devil.

Matthew 13:36-38
36his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us pthe parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of tthe wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; uthe harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I don't know what you felt in the desert, but I assure you it wasn't a fire baptism. Possibly the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

No.

Matthew 3 is not saying that Jesus will give each believer a Holy Spirit baptism and a fire baptism.

John the Baptist is not speaking to an individual in this narrative, but many people.

It's saying that He will give out a Holy Spirit baptism and a fire baptism. That's because only God is capable of deciding those kind of judgments.

Both judgements cannot simultaneously apply to individuals. For example, someone can't be judged to be chaff and thrown into a furnace and then become wheat to be gathered into a barn. This is because it's talking about two different kinds of people.

Read Matthew 13:36-43 and see if it helps you understand better.

I’m sorry I don’t think I’m misunderstanding I think you are .


You are tying everything to the parable of the wheat and tares , John didn’t preach that Jesus did and then explained his parable .

but here let’s just examine it

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:11-

you don’t see the two different references ?

he tells them Christ will baptize them with the Holy Ghost and with fire .

then he says “ and he will purge....”


If he says they are going to be baptized with the Holy Ghost and with fire , your saying what ? you’ll be baptized with the Holy Ghost and sent to hell and belong to the group of non believers in the parable of wheat and tares ?

that to me doesn’t make sense. Again to try to be clear

“he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”

Is that fire reference a reference to this fire ?

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:41-42‬ ‭

orrrrr is it a reference to this fire

“
“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭

anyways though I’m okay with however you want to interpret it , but I honestly don’t think I’m misunderstanding it , and you don’t think you are . I’m okay with that

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You've never sung the song, "Refiners Fire"?

Malachi 3:2 KJV - "But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap . . ."

The Bible is incredibly repetitive in its Core Message. Many times the Bible refers to the same topic, but with different words. Sometimes the Bible will use those same words, but with different topics, or subject matter.

In my opinion, you are conflating two different principles, expecting the terms of the terms to be equivalent when they in fact are not the same.

As for me . . . I'll accept Baptism by Fire in view and scope of the Entire Bible . . . not just one small piece of it. Jesus Baptized me with Fine in the Arizona Desert . . . it was and will always be the most single incredible moment I will ever experience while within God's Creation.

that is exactly my view also two things are being conflated because of the term fire

 

[Runningman]

I’m sorry I don’t think I’m misunderstanding I think you are .


You are tying everything to the parable of the wheat and tares , John didn’t preach that Jesus did and then explained his parable .

but here let’s just examine it

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:11-

you don’t see the two different references ?

he tells them Christ will baptize them with the Holy Ghost and with fire .

then he says “ and he will purge....”


If he says they are going to be baptized with the Holy Ghost and with fire , your saying what ? you’ll be baptized with the Holy Ghost and sent to hell and belong to the group of non believers in the parable of wheat and tares ?

that to me doesn’t make sense. Again to try to be clear

“he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”

Is that fire reference a reference to this fire ?

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:41-42‬ ‭

orrrrr is it a reference to this fire

“
“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭

anyways though I’m okay with however you want to interpret it , but I honestly don’t think I’m misunderstanding it , and you don’t think you are . I’m okay with that

I'm okay with us agreeing to disagree as well.

I mean, I tried to see it your way. I have no preference to the way I understand it as long as it's Biblical.

Thanks for the discussion anyway.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You've never sung the song, "Refiners Fire"?

John the Baptist was not really referring to this.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There is the sanctification work of the Holy Spirit and there is the empowering for ministry work of the Holy Spirit. Is the baptism of fire here that of empowerment for ministry such as the day of Pentecost, or is it the ongoing sanctification process?

I can only tell you what I personally think but I believe it to be the refiners fire of Gods word

for instance the reason I think the term refiners fire is used , is because as we learn the gospel it’s somewhat of a pressure cooker in the heart and mind we don’t believe everything at once because we don’t hear everything at once so please bear with me as I try to explain how I would answer that

the holt spirit is one everything comes from the baptism of the spirit, empowerment , sanctification all we need in every way. But as far as process goes in my thinking this is what I’m saying about how the gospel is like a refiners fire that purifies the mind and heart

we first believe the simple thkngs we hear “ God sent his son so anyone who believes can have eternal
Life “ it’s a seed as many scriptures in the gospel are like that just believe in me , just believe my word . He says that so many times tying it to eternal life so when we grow and begin to hear more of the gospel

we then begin to hear the one we believe in for salvation saying

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭

because our faith is in him this becomes pressure in our faith or it hears up like a fire beginning to touch the silver

and he says many things like this those strong clear warnings about repentance and obedience

So within our faith we have the fire of his word in whom we believe as we hear

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

his teachings like this work to purify the things in our mind and heart that have us convinced of other false beliefs like sin isn’t a big deal now , or repentance isn’t the gospel , or I’m already saved no
Matter what I do ...:. The reason we sin as believers in Christ is because we’re not believing his word and receiving it into our understanding about God , ourselves , Satan , salvation all these powerful truths in the gospel of we believe those thkngs our hearts and minds can become purified because of faith

if we really believe in Jesus and hear his words even if we are stubborn in our sins there is going to be a fire kindled within of the belief is true and his words will not allow us to continue on in sin through endurance and perseverance we can be free through belief

baptism of fire in my own thinking , just my own thoughts , is to hear and abide in his words I believe this becomes a refining fire in our heart of faith that is able to save us from the impurities

simply I think the fire baptism is the word to receive and believe even when it’s not pleasant and explains we need to change things in Christ and his word certainly teaches us gently , but over time we are meant to begin having resoonsability in him and to grow and move out of the sins that keep us bound

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I'm okay with us agreeing to disagree as well.

I mean, I tried to see it your way. I have no preference to the way I understand it as long as it's Biblical.

Thanks for the discussion anyway.

I feel the same way bro God bless and keep us both hopefully!!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

John the Baptist was not really referring to this.

“
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:

and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:”


“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1-2, 4‬ ‭


“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬



“the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:”

 

[throughfaith]

baptism of fire is not the same as being cast into the fire brother

consider that John didn’t baptize with the spirit but with water for remission and he’s saying Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost and fire

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what that reference actually is brother is a reference to the refiners fire of the gospel

John the Baptist and Jesus in a prophecy

“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:

and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭

to hear the gospel and believe becomes a refiners fire and fullers soap it works to purify the heart and mind in Christ which purifies the actions . The fire in that reference is the truth of the word of God through Christ

When a believer faces the gospel that Jesus preached and taught it becomes a fire that destroys the strongholds in our hearts that lead us to sin . His word is able to burn up the problem that leads us to obey sin

this is where his fire works in us

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so we need this in our heart of faith to correct that issue

“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to believe Jesus word becomes a fire that refines our heart and mind in Christ

The word is like double edged sword yes , it cuts . Not burns .

 

[CS1]

I have heard numerous people over the years say they have received the "baptism of fire." The Bible describes what the baptism of fire is and it is not the same thing as the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit baptism is the one we want. The baptism of fire is a reference to hellfire and we do not want that.

Verses often cited for what the baptism of fire is reveal a context that describes useless dead trees and chaff thrown into an unquenchable fire.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is for 'wheat' which is just figurative language used to describe those who are saved. Jesus will gather His wheat into His barn.

Those who receive the baptism of fire is not what people sometimes think it is; again, it is a reference to hellfire.

(Underlines added by me)
Matthew 3:10-12 (KJV)
10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

purity

 

[Runningman]

“
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:

and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:”


“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1-2, 4‬ ‭


“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬



“the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:”

Is being sent to hell a literal baptism of fire? If yes then God is the one who will judge people. That means He baptises with fire.

Through faith in Christ are we baptized into the Holy Spirit? God is the one who puts us into the Holy Spirit. That means He also baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

God baptizes with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

that is exactly my view also two things are being conflated because of the term fire

100% - Hard to understand, isn't it? It's just too simple.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

just an addition it occurs we may not know what a fuller , or refiners fire really does

a refiners fire is what supperheated the ore and lead to produce pure silver from the impure metals . And secondly purified the silver itself the worker when it was properly heated would blow oxygen over the heated metals and after the refiners work was done there was pure silver and all of the impurities of the ore and lead were cut away from the pure silver

a fuller was a cleaner of cloth mostly wool , the oils and dirt and impurities were removed with the harsh and powerful soap . After much scrubbing and work by the fuller , the wool was left clean and white and ready to wear . Not resembling the oily dirty wool beforehand now it’s fit to wear to a wedding banquet if one chose

thought that may help

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

John the Baptist was not really referring to this.

That's cool. I am, though.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Is being sent to hell a literal baptism of fire? If yes then God is the one who will judge people. That means He baptises with fire.

Through faith in Christ are we baptized into the Holy Spirit? God is the one who puts us into the Holy Spirit. That means He also baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

God baptizes with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

yes I understand your opinion bro and respect it just don’t see it that way no issues though it’s all good

I don’t think baptism of fire is a reference to being sent to hell . But that’s just how I personally see it , respect your view and right to hold it also

 

[CS1]

Is being sent to hell a literal baptism of fire? If yes then God is the one who will judge people. That means He baptises with fire.

Through faith in Christ are we baptized into the Holy Spirit? God is the one who puts us into the Holy Spirit. That means He also baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

God baptizes with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

No, "sent to hell" has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit or baptism of fire. Hell is the reward of angels and the devil and for those who rejected Christ.

The Holy Spirit's work is not to judge but to convict and lead and guide the saint.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

just an addition it occurs we may not know what a fuller or refiners fire really does

a refiner's fire is what superheated the ore and lead to produce pure silver from the impure metals. And secondly purified the silver itself the worker when it was properly heated would blow oxygen over the heated metals and after the refiner's work was done there was pure silver and all of the impurities of the ore and lead were cut away from the pure silver

a fuller was a cleaner of cloth mostly wool, the oils and dirt and impurities were removed with the harsh and powerful soap. After much scrubbing and work by the fuller, the wool was left clean and white and ready to wear. Not resembling the oily dirty wool beforehand now it’s fit to wear to a wedding banquet if one chose

thought that may help

Doing an Old Testament study on the word "Dross" will put a person on the right track. Below are the results of a KJV word search:

Psalm 119:119 KJV - 119 Thou puttest away all the wicked of the earth [like] dross: therefore I love thy testimonies.

Proverbs 25:4 KJV - 4 Take away the dross from the silver, and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer.

Isaiah 1:25 KJV - 25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

Ezekiel 22:18-19 KJV - 18 Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they [are] brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are [even] the dross of silver. 19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.

The Holy Purpose of Jesus is to refine the Vine of Christ. To Refine is to attend to the Holy Remnant of Christ, which is neither Jew nor Gentile, male or female, slave or free. The Purpose of Jesus, in His Refining Fire, is to Purify. How does Jesus Purify? Colossians 2:9-15 tells us plainly (below). Note that within the NLT translation, it states that we are whole and complete in Christ (verse 10), and the remaining verses explain why. This [IS] the Refiners Fire. The day that a person realizes that Colossians 2:9-15 is what the Entire Bible is about . . . the Bible will finally begin to make sense instead of being so intellectually elusive.

Colossians 2:9-15 NLT - 9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.

Memorize Colossians 2:9-15. These are vastly more important than John 3:16.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

100% - Hard to understand, isn't it? It's just too simple.

I personally think the prophecy about John and Jesus to
Come with the New Testament in Malachi Settles it from me

especially knowing all the doctrinal references about having our garments made white , having our hearts sanctified through faith by the gospel .

it seems to You and I to make good sense , but others maybe not so much which really is okay I think the lord will correct us if we’re on the wrong track in any understanding as long as we continue being teachable for him

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Doing an Old Testament study on the word "Dross" will put a person on the right track. Below are the results of a KJV word search:

Psalm 119:119 KJV - 119 Thou puttest away all the wicked of the earth [like] dross: therefore I love thy testimonies.

Proverbs 25:4 KJV - 4 Take away the dross from the silver, and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer.

Isaiah 1:25 KJV - 25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

Ezekiel 22:18-19 KJV - 18 Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they [are] brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are [even] the dross of silver. 19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.

The Holy Purpose of Jesus is to refine the Vine of Christ. To Refine is to attend to the Holy Remnant of Christ, which is neither Jew nor Gentile, male or female, slave or free. The Purpose of Jesus, in His Refining Fire, is to Purify. How does Jesus Purify? Colossians 2:9-15 tells us plainly (below). Note that within the NLT translation, it states that we are whole and complete in Christ (verse 10), and the remaining verses explain why. This [IS] the Refiners Fire. The day that a person realizes that Colossians 2:9-15 is what the Entire Bible is about . . . the Bible will finally begin to make sense instead of being so intellectually elusive.

Colossians 2:9-15 NLT - 9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.

Memorize Colossians 2:9-15. These are vastly more important than John 3:16.

Yea no I’m not sure Colossians 2 changes what all the rest has to say or is the center of the Bible at all. And I think the most important part is that “God sent his only begotten into the world that whoever believes in him shall be saved “

I think the entire Bible revolves around that truth but find good value in a lot of what you had to say there for sure

I think my conclusion about the most important part is all of it is very important and we shouldn’t make one aspect everything because he had a lot to say .

I do find grate value in Colossians though and really honestly see a lot of agreement on your post

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

it seems to You and I to make good sense, but others maybe not so much which really is okay

Mmmmm . . . I don't think so (in my opinion). It is never ok to be wrong about the Word of God, which is why Paul taught that it is best that not many of us be teachers, for we will be held accountable for leading others astray . . . hence Jeroboam. We don't want to be like Jeroboam!

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Yea no I’m not sure Colossians 2 changes what all the rest has to say or is the center of the Bible at all. And I think the most important part is that “God sent his only begotten into the world that whoever believes in him shall be saved “

Okie Doke, but I sure wouldn't have that view. Col 2:9-15 tells us HOW to be saved. If we don't understand HOW to be saved, we're probably not saved at all. I'd memorize those 7 verses and ponder them for a year or two.