No gentile has ever been under Mosaic law
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Do you think Christ was wrong when he asked the disciples if they had anything to eat? (if we are going to ask off topic questions I guess we can ask pretty much ask anything)
OR we can stick to the topic about whether Christ said obeying the law could lead one to eternal life. Christ did say it was possible. He did not say anyone achieved it that way.
OR we can stick to the topic about whether Christ said obeying the law could lead one to eternal life. Christ did say it was possible. He did not say anyone achieved it that way.
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Fallacy of False dilemma.
All the Jews who remain in the covenant of Law, before Christ came, will be placed in Abraham's bosom/Paradise at their deaths.
Note that they did not have to keep the Law perfectly, because no one could. All they were required to do is to offer burnt sacrifices whenever they break the Law.
As far as God is concerned, he will then see them as blameless, in the eyes of the Law (Luke 1:6)
When Christ return for Israel in his 2nd coming, all these Jews, together with those born before Israel was formed, will then receive their salvation (Romans 11:25-27, Hebrews 8:12, Acts 3:19-21).
All the Jews who remain in the covenant of Law, before Christ came, will be placed in Abraham's bosom/Paradise at their deaths.
Note that they did not have to keep the Law perfectly, because no one could. All they were required to do is to offer burnt sacrifices whenever they break the Law.
As far as God is concerned, he will then see them as blameless, in the eyes of the Law (Luke 1:6)
When Christ return for Israel in his 2nd coming, all these Jews, together with those born before Israel was formed, will then receive their salvation (Romans 11:25-27, Hebrews 8:12, Acts 3:19-21).
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But Abraham was not a Jew he was a Hebrew 
and the father of many nations (not only Israel). Do you not think we will all be judged equally before God one day, or are there different standards between people who lived before Christ came and after He came?
and the father of many nations (not only Israel). Do you not think we will all be judged equally before God one day, or are there different standards between people who lived before Christ came and after He came?
The rest of the OT saints are not in the Body of Christ, they have to wait until Christ's 2nd coming to receive their forgiveness of sins. (Romans 11:25-27, Hebrews 8:12, Acts 3:19-21).
David called us blessed because of that difference in Romans 4:6-8.
Somehow, you have decided that these people did not receive Salvation based upon the words, "All these people earned a good reputation because of their faith, yet none of them received all that God had promised."
Did you read verse 33? It says . . .
Hebrews 11:33 NLT - By faith these people overthrew kingdoms, ruled with justice, and received what God had promised them. They shut the mouths of lions . . ."
Why would verse 33 indicate that they did receive all that was promised.
What in the world are you doing?
Before you begin discussing what is and is not false doctrine, be sure that yours is 100% spot-on, lest you be a complete hypocrite.
Did you read verse 33? It says . . .
Hebrews 11:33 NLT - By faith these people overthrew kingdoms, ruled with justice, and received what God had promised them. They shut the mouths of lions . . ."
Why would verse 33 indicate that they did receive all that was promised.
What in the world are you doing?
Before you begin discussing what is and is not false doctrine, be sure that yours is 100% spot-on, lest you be a complete hypocrite.
This is really, really difficult to tolerate. Please stop teaching. Abraham was given the Gospel, for crying out loud.
Galatians 3:8 NKJV - "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, [saying], "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
To say that Abraham was not in the Body of Christ, even though Abraham is the Father of David, who is the Father of Jesus . . . is outrageous. Unbelievable!
Matthew 1:1 NKJV - "The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham . . ."
Jesus is the son of Abraham, yet Abraham is not a part of Christ. Talk about stripping Jesus of His heritage. How can Abraham be our Father of Faith if he was not a part of the Body of Christ?
Come on!
John 8:58 NLT - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I AM!"
Please stop teaching.
Galatians 3:8 NKJV - "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, [saying], "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
To say that Abraham was not in the Body of Christ, even though Abraham is the Father of David, who is the Father of Jesus . . . is outrageous. Unbelievable!
Matthew 1:1 NKJV - "The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham . . ."
Jesus is the son of Abraham, yet Abraham is not a part of Christ. Talk about stripping Jesus of His heritage. How can Abraham be our Father of Faith if he was not a part of the Body of Christ?
Come on!
John 8:58 NLT - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I AM!"
Please stop teaching.
Whew. No. The Law acted like a temporary guardian. Why is that? The Law came after Abraham and ended with Christ, hence Matthew 1:1, which shows that Jesus is the Son of David and David is the Son of Abraham. Why is Abraham our Father of Faith?
Galatians 3:24-25 NLT - "Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian."
Jesus put an end to the Law when He lifts the Sin Nature from the Human Heart.
Colossians 2:11-15 KJV - "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."
Galatians 3:24-25 NLT - "Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian."
Jesus put an end to the Law when He lifts the Sin Nature from the Human Heart.
Colossians 2:11-15 KJV - "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."
What? Now we've got to cover the issue of "Who is Israel?" Do you know who these people are? Just because a person says they're an Israelite, doesn't mean they Truly are. And since this is the case, why should we concern ourselves with the difference between the body of Christ and Israel?
Have you actually read the Bible in a chronological, timeline format over and over again? Do you understand the actual story of the Bible?
Have you actually read the Bible in a chronological, timeline format over and over again? Do you understand the actual story of the Bible?
Here are my notes on king David and his being Indwelt (led) by the Spirit (they are raw notes and not ready for printing).
David was Indwelt by the Holy Spirit 1 Sam 16:12,13 (from that day on the Spirit of the Lord came upon David in power. Matt 22:43 and Psalm 51:11.
"The Lord is with him" 1 Sam 16:18. This description does not indicate that the Spirit is coming and going, but that the Spirit is consistent with him, David. - "Saul was afraid of David because the Lord was with David but had left Saul 1 Sam 18:12, 14, 28. - More of: "The Lord was with David 1 Sam 18:? & 2 Sam 05:10.
David states that it was God that brought him out of his mother's womb. It was God that made him trust Him, even as a baby! In fact, from birth, God had been cast upon David. Even further still, David claims that He was his God even while in the womb of his mother, like that of Jesus and John the Baptist as infants in their mother's womb Psa 022:09,10. - Psa 073 Verse one shows that God is good to those who are Pure in heart. How can anyone be pure in heart if their Sinful Nature has not been removed? How can David even think about "purity of heart" if he has the Sinful Nature, for they apparently couldn't even conceive of this? Vs 2 David states that he almost slipped, that he had nearly lost his foothold. Vs 13 David says that he has "kept my heart pure." Prov 15:26 shows that Righteousness is the same as Purity. How could David ever suggest that his heart was pure if he possessed the Sinful Nature, a Nature that is disabling? The answer is in Vs 23,24: David tells us that God holds him by the "right hand." "You guide me with your counsel and afterward you will take me into glory." God guides and directs even though at times we think we are about to slip and fall. Consider also: [Psa 116:8 NLT] "He has saved me from death, my eyes from tears, my feet from stumbling." [Psa 94:18 NLT] "I cried out, "I am slipping!" but your unfailing love, O LORD, supported me." Vs 26 boldly states that God is the "strength of my heart." How can God be the "strength of my heart" if David possesses the evil Sinful Nature? - David led his flock with a heart of integrity Psa 078:72. How can a heart that is supposed to be "stony" because of the Sinful Nature, how can a stony heart have integrity? Anyone with the Sinful Nature has a "stony heart", and that person is dead in their sins (Sinful Nature). - Again, the "Lord was with" David 1 Chron 11:09.
It is an odd thing to suggest that David was not led by the Spirit in light of 1 Chron 16:23 where he sings of proclaiming God's Salvation. He lives Righteously and Holy, yet is not Led by the Spirit, yet further still he promotes Salvation? Impossible. - Psa 002:07,8 God decreed that David would be His Son (capital S) and is granting David's inheritance. (If David is God’s Son, and if Jesus is the Son of David, then David must be in the “order of Melchizedek, which is that of an indestructible Vine.) David, at this point, was decreed a Son to God. David was justified at this moment. - When Ethan wrote of David in Psa 089, he was quoting God by saying, "I will establish your line forever and make your throne firm through all generations", is this not a man that is Led by the Holy Spirit? Of course, it is. David was Led by the Divine Nature and not the Sinful Nature, for the "way" of a man is the nature of a man. All of David's core behavior is in alignment with the Divine Nature, the Mind of Christ. - Psa 089 holds the context of the last verse, which is that David is the "anointed one." David even speaks about being mocked by men for doing God's good and Holy Work. These are the actions of a man who has been lifted of the Adam and Eve Curse, for David is not compelled to sin, but he is compelled to obey. God will even cause David (the House of David) to call out, "You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior." [Rom 8:15 NKJV] "For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." Psa 089:27 is interesting as it states that God will appoint David as His Firstborn, the most exalted of the Kings of the [earth]. I presume this means earthly Kings and not the Heavenly King, which is Christ. (Note: This is why the Jews mocked Jesus as "King of the Jews", for they were waiting for a different kind of King, not an Eternal King that calls Himself "God", a mere "man" in their eyes. - David will lead a "Blameless life." An odd thing to say for someone with the Sinful Nature that forces one to disobey Psa 101:02-6. - David is the "anointed one" Psa 132. - David even prophesied that Priests will be clothed with Salvation Psa 132:16.
David personally feels as though God looks upon him as the most "exalted of men." Quite an amazing thing to say if he were not being led by God's Spirit 1 Chron 17:17
David sinned with Bathsheba, but his sin has been taken away, and consequently, he will not die. But sin causes death, so how is it that David, who most say [is not] indwelt by the Holy Spirit, will live and not die? This is because the Sinful Nature has been removed from him 2 Sam 12:13. - Why would David ever be grateful to God for Salvation if he, David, had not fully met the requirements of God? Psa 013:05,6. - David claims that the Lord is a fortress of Salvation for his anointed one, which would be himself. Why would he be discussing the Salvation inherited by Christ? Jesus is his own Salvation? No, David was saved and cleansed by Christ on the day of His death, burial, and subsequent resurrection. - It's a silly thing to say that David wasn't Led by the Spirit of God when he writes this of himself, "I have been blameless before him and have kept myself from sin." 2 Sam 22:24. Yes, we could say that this is a prophecy of Jesus, and that would change the perspective for sure, but even still, what are those sins of David that make him so terrible? He even states that it is God that makes his ways perfect 2 Sam 22:33.
David sings much about his Salvation in Psa 116 and 118. Psa 118 sings of Salvation . . . The entire body of it. How could this be if he were not filled by the Holy Spirit? - David wrote about his redemption Psa 071:23. - Psa 119, like nearly all of the Psalms in David's later years, is packed with Salvation. Read it all, but what is amazing is that David claims that God has set his heart free. Is that not Salvation? Psa 119:32. - Solomon said of his father that he was Righteous and Upright in heart 1 Kings 03:06. - Acts 04:25 shows that the Holy Spirit was speaking through David, the Father of Jesus: NLT - ". . . you spoke long ago by the Holy Spirit through our ancestor David, your servant, saying, 'Why were the nations so angry? Why did they waste their time with futile plans?"
David was Indwelt by the Holy Spirit 1 Sam 16:12,13 (from that day on the Spirit of the Lord came upon David in power. Matt 22:43 and Psalm 51:11.
"The Lord is with him" 1 Sam 16:18. This description does not indicate that the Spirit is coming and going, but that the Spirit is consistent with him, David. - "Saul was afraid of David because the Lord was with David but had left Saul 1 Sam 18:12, 14, 28. - More of: "The Lord was with David 1 Sam 18:? & 2 Sam 05:10.
David states that it was God that brought him out of his mother's womb. It was God that made him trust Him, even as a baby! In fact, from birth, God had been cast upon David. Even further still, David claims that He was his God even while in the womb of his mother, like that of Jesus and John the Baptist as infants in their mother's womb Psa 022:09,10. - Psa 073 Verse one shows that God is good to those who are Pure in heart. How can anyone be pure in heart if their Sinful Nature has not been removed? How can David even think about "purity of heart" if he has the Sinful Nature, for they apparently couldn't even conceive of this? Vs 2 David states that he almost slipped, that he had nearly lost his foothold. Vs 13 David says that he has "kept my heart pure." Prov 15:26 shows that Righteousness is the same as Purity. How could David ever suggest that his heart was pure if he possessed the Sinful Nature, a Nature that is disabling? The answer is in Vs 23,24: David tells us that God holds him by the "right hand." "You guide me with your counsel and afterward you will take me into glory." God guides and directs even though at times we think we are about to slip and fall. Consider also: [Psa 116:8 NLT] "He has saved me from death, my eyes from tears, my feet from stumbling." [Psa 94:18 NLT] "I cried out, "I am slipping!" but your unfailing love, O LORD, supported me." Vs 26 boldly states that God is the "strength of my heart." How can God be the "strength of my heart" if David possesses the evil Sinful Nature? - David led his flock with a heart of integrity Psa 078:72. How can a heart that is supposed to be "stony" because of the Sinful Nature, how can a stony heart have integrity? Anyone with the Sinful Nature has a "stony heart", and that person is dead in their sins (Sinful Nature). - Again, the "Lord was with" David 1 Chron 11:09.
It is an odd thing to suggest that David was not led by the Spirit in light of 1 Chron 16:23 where he sings of proclaiming God's Salvation. He lives Righteously and Holy, yet is not Led by the Spirit, yet further still he promotes Salvation? Impossible. - Psa 002:07,8 God decreed that David would be His Son (capital S) and is granting David's inheritance. (If David is God’s Son, and if Jesus is the Son of David, then David must be in the “order of Melchizedek, which is that of an indestructible Vine.) David, at this point, was decreed a Son to God. David was justified at this moment. - When Ethan wrote of David in Psa 089, he was quoting God by saying, "I will establish your line forever and make your throne firm through all generations", is this not a man that is Led by the Holy Spirit? Of course, it is. David was Led by the Divine Nature and not the Sinful Nature, for the "way" of a man is the nature of a man. All of David's core behavior is in alignment with the Divine Nature, the Mind of Christ. - Psa 089 holds the context of the last verse, which is that David is the "anointed one." David even speaks about being mocked by men for doing God's good and Holy Work. These are the actions of a man who has been lifted of the Adam and Eve Curse, for David is not compelled to sin, but he is compelled to obey. God will even cause David (the House of David) to call out, "You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior." [Rom 8:15 NKJV] "For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." Psa 089:27 is interesting as it states that God will appoint David as His Firstborn, the most exalted of the Kings of the [earth]. I presume this means earthly Kings and not the Heavenly King, which is Christ. (Note: This is why the Jews mocked Jesus as "King of the Jews", for they were waiting for a different kind of King, not an Eternal King that calls Himself "God", a mere "man" in their eyes. - David will lead a "Blameless life." An odd thing to say for someone with the Sinful Nature that forces one to disobey Psa 101:02-6. - David is the "anointed one" Psa 132. - David even prophesied that Priests will be clothed with Salvation Psa 132:16.
David personally feels as though God looks upon him as the most "exalted of men." Quite an amazing thing to say if he were not being led by God's Spirit 1 Chron 17:17
David sinned with Bathsheba, but his sin has been taken away, and consequently, he will not die. But sin causes death, so how is it that David, who most say [is not] indwelt by the Holy Spirit, will live and not die? This is because the Sinful Nature has been removed from him 2 Sam 12:13. - Why would David ever be grateful to God for Salvation if he, David, had not fully met the requirements of God? Psa 013:05,6. - David claims that the Lord is a fortress of Salvation for his anointed one, which would be himself. Why would he be discussing the Salvation inherited by Christ? Jesus is his own Salvation? No, David was saved and cleansed by Christ on the day of His death, burial, and subsequent resurrection. - It's a silly thing to say that David wasn't Led by the Spirit of God when he writes this of himself, "I have been blameless before him and have kept myself from sin." 2 Sam 22:24. Yes, we could say that this is a prophecy of Jesus, and that would change the perspective for sure, but even still, what are those sins of David that make him so terrible? He even states that it is God that makes his ways perfect 2 Sam 22:33.
David sings much about his Salvation in Psa 116 and 118. Psa 118 sings of Salvation . . . The entire body of it. How could this be if he were not filled by the Holy Spirit? - David wrote about his redemption Psa 071:23. - Psa 119, like nearly all of the Psalms in David's later years, is packed with Salvation. Read it all, but what is amazing is that David claims that God has set his heart free. Is that not Salvation? Psa 119:32. - Solomon said of his father that he was Righteous and Upright in heart 1 Kings 03:06. - Acts 04:25 shows that the Holy Spirit was speaking through David, the Father of Jesus: NLT - ". . . you spoke long ago by the Holy Spirit through our ancestor David, your servant, saying, 'Why were the nations so angry? Why did they waste their time with futile plans?"
So you are inferring a present salvation from all those passages? If you want to squeeze that out from those passages, no one can stop you.
Hebrews 8:8-12 is clear on when Israel will receive their forgiveness of sins, its in the future.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hebrews 8:8-12 is clear on when Israel will receive their forgiveness of sins, its in the future.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Of course! How can anyone serve God if they are Cursed? They cannot . . . it is impossible.
Learn the below scriptures . . . they apply to all humans, from Cain to Abel.
Romans 8:6-9 NLT - 6 So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. 7 For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will. 8 That's why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God. 9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)
Guojing . . . you and I seem to have two completely different Bibles and it has become clear that neither of us is going to change our positions. There is NO WAY that I will revert back to old doctrine and believe, again, what you are teaching. I've been there, believing and teaching what you teach . . . but I was totally wrong.
Learn the below scriptures . . . they apply to all humans, from Cain to Abel.
Romans 8:6-9 NLT - 6 So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. 7 For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will. 8 That's why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God. 9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)
Guojing . . . you and I seem to have two completely different Bibles and it has become clear that neither of us is going to change our positions. There is NO WAY that I will revert back to old doctrine and believe, again, what you are teaching. I've been there, believing and teaching what you teach . . . but I was totally wrong.
I have already stated this to you elsewhere https://christianchat.com/threads/jesus-and-paul-two-different-gospels.197390/post-4502359
Once you participate in such discussions long enough, you will realize this, people rarely change their minds here.
And that is perfectly understandable, once one is able to care enough for a doctrine to be able to type them out in words, they have formed that over many years of reflection.
So it is highly unlikely for people to change their minds just because a stranger over the Internet says something different, at least not until the long run.
Once you participate in such discussions long enough, you will realize this, people rarely change their minds here.
And that is perfectly understandable, once one is able to care enough for a doctrine to be able to type them out in words, they have formed that over many years of reflection.
So it is highly unlikely for people to change their minds just because a stranger over the Internet says something different, at least not until the long run.
That's odd. I will change my mind when I see the Truth . . . instantly. What I believe has nothing to do with any period of time. To be any other way is to be dogmatic.
Let the ENTIRE Bible interpret the ENTIRE Bible.
If you and I were to sit down together, and if I asked you to give me a two-minute rendition of the entire Bible . . . could you do it? Do you know the Old Testament well enough to give me the rundown on the entire "thing?"
Let the ENTIRE Bible interpret the ENTIRE Bible.
If you and I were to sit down together, and if I asked you to give me a two-minute rendition of the entire Bible . . . could you do it? Do you know the Old Testament well enough to give me the rundown on the entire "thing?"