ROMANS 1:18-32

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oldhermit

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#1
Would anyone be interested in studying Rom. 1:18-32 with me?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#3
18¶For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24¶Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26¶For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28¶And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them
 

oyster67

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May 24, 2014
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#4
A good theme title might be ALL SHALL BE WITHOUT EXCUSE?
 

oldhermit

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#5
I wonder how ot would influence our perspective of our present society if we were to read these verses as God was making these accusations directly against us and weigh our current state of affairs in this nation against these accusations.

I think the way we need to approach this text is to focus on the disease rather than the symptoms. What I have noticed is that most people who read or teach this segment of chapter one, generally tend to focus on the list of sins mentioned with particular emphasis on the sin of homosexuality. I am certainly not criticizing this approach to these verses, bit I think that focusing our attention on these sins does absolutely nothing to address the heart of the issue. All this does is treat the symptoms and leaves the disease untouched.

All of the sins cataloged in this segment, including the sin of homosexuality are not the problem, they are merely a symptom of a much deeper problem. What I would like to do is attack the disease at its nucleus by generalizing to some of the fundamental principles that created these types of behaviors that led to the four stages of terminal social decline that Paul presents.
 

oyster67

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May 24, 2014
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#6
I wonder how ot would influence our perspective of our present society if we were to read these verses as God was making these accusations directly against us and weigh our current state of affairs in this nation against these accusations.

I think the way we need to approach this text is to focus on the disease rather than the symptoms. What I have noticed is that most people who read or teach this segment of chapter one, generally tend to focus on the list of sins mentioned with particular emphasis on the sin of homosexuality. I am certainly not criticizing this approach to these verses, bit I think that focusing our attention on these sins does absolutely nothing to address the heart of the issue. All this does is treat the symptoms and leaves the disease untouched.

All of the sins cataloged in this segment, including the sin of homosexuality are not the problem, they are merely a symptom of a much deeper problem. What I would like to do is attack the disease at its nucleus by generalizing to some of the fundamental principles that created these types of behaviors that led to the four stages of terminal social decline that Paul presents.
Amen brother! I have heard it put this way; "Is is time to stop swatting at leaves and start laying the axe to the root". At their root, all sins are based upon rebelling against the Lordship and Absolute Truth of God.
 

oldhermit

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#7
I will be using the NKJV.

Beginning with verses 18-23 Paul says,

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.”

In these verses we can generalize first to the fact that the suppression of the human conscience is fundamentally necessary for the reversal of a revealed standard of morality. If you want to separate morality from the minds of people, you must first sear the conscience against all moral standards; and this begins with an assault on revealed standards.

The reduction of human existence to its lowest element suppresses even the most obvious knowledge of what is right and wrong, and it does this through the suppression of the human conscience. Our social conscience has become so badly deteriorated that we are no longer even able to distinguish the difference between male and female in this country. This is one of the most basic and obvious truths of the natural world. Truth does not get much more basic than this.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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#8
I will be using the NKJV.

Beginning with verses 18-23 Paul says,

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.”

In these verses we can generalize first to the fact that the suppression of the human conscience is fundamentally necessary for the reversal of a revealed standard of morality. If you want to separate morality from the minds of people, you must first sear the conscience against all moral standards; and this begins with an assault on revealed standards.

The reduction of human existence to its lowest element suppresses even the most obvious knowledge of what is right and wrong, and it does this through the suppression of the human conscience. Our social conscience has become so badly deteriorated that we are no longer even able to distinguish the difference between male and female in this country. This is one of the most basic and obvious truths of the natural world. Truth does not get much more basic than this.
Amen to what your saying there

I think a key for this would be what he’s saying beforehand and how we’re saved from that state of degradation your speaking truth about

“So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:15-17‬ ‭

and think something like this makes more sense knowing Romans 1

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And

we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

sort of shows what believing the gospel is saving us from the wrath of God that is in the world and also coming upon the world until the end because of mankind’s constant rebellion even as God made us in his image from the beginning we’ve always followed the other guys word .

But Now we have the gospel to believe and be saved and let our minds and hearts be made right in belief so we can get back to our true nature made after the son of God his children ,

bad things happen in the world because of the subject matter your touching on when mans conscience and nature degraded into what it is , mankind had been given dominion over all the earth so the earth was fuller with wickedness and the wickedness of man on the earth brought the wrath

sources in the degradation of the heart and mind of mankind

It’s been the issue since the beginning generations

“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-6, 13‬ ‭

the wrath has always been a direct response to the state of mankind’s consciousness and will culminate in the end the gospel is our Noah’s ark because to hear and believe it changes that inner compass back to the truth so we can be saved
 

oyster67

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#9
His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood
There are more kinds of seeing than just that done by the physical eye.
 

oldhermit

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#10
There are more kinds of seeing than just that done by the physical eye.
Since Paul uses καθορᾶται he his speaking of things that are understood or perceived with the mind. This tells us that a proper representation of the things the natural world are designed to create in us an elevated representation of God and the wisdom and power of God.
 

oldhermit

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#11
Paul presents an epistemology of godlessness and wickedness which is brought about by the rejection of controlled behavior. This is man's refusal to be controlled by the will of God and the word of God.

With the rejection of revealed truths, man has chosen to embrace his own conscience as an instrument of truth. “Whatever is right for you is right so, let no one judge you for what you do.” This has become the battle cry of the “progressive” mind. This elevation of human reason and knowledge has become the standard by which man determines what he believes is true, what behavior he believes is acceptable. When the human conscience is not held in check by revealed knowledge, then it becomes an epistemology of its own. What this means is that human reason and experience have become our metric for measuring truth.

Paul also says that creation stands as a symbol designed to refer the mind of man back to the reality and power of God, verse 20. Man's observation of the universe is intended to create an awareness of three things.

1. God's invisible qualities
What does our observation of the universe teach us about God's invisible qualities? His Love, tenderness, wisdom, organization, beauty, goodness, etc….

2. His eternal power
What we learn here is more than just the unsearchable power displayed by the mere existence of the universe. We learn that there is an eternal cause that transcends the elements of time and space. The universe exists because of a power outside of itself. (This fact certainly overturns Bower’s five possibilities about law and the universe.)

3. His divine nature
What does the universe have to say to man about the nature of God? That God is transcendent. He stands over, above, and outside of the natural world.

Recognition of the attributes of God is so fundamentally important to man's understanding of his place in the universe that God has revealed this information at the most basic level by placing this evidence within creation itself. The function of the universe then in respect to man is pedagogical. It instructs us about God. Even creation testifies to the reality, power, wisdom, and nature of God, and Paul says this is perceived by the human conscience. That information is discernible by our observation of the universe. Since this is true, we need to be very careful about how we guard the human conscience.

I think this has a lot to say about how parents are to nurture and protect the conscience of their children. The installation of core values is well and good and necessary, but it is no substitute for a trained conscience, because if the conscience does not hold then neither will the core values.
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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#12
The modern translations don't quite capture the meaning of verse 18 .
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
kjv
This is more than ' suppress ' .

The same happens in verse 25 .
 

oldhermit

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#13
We can also generalize here that the suppression of truth creates a terminal condition.

1. “They became futile in their speculations.”
Their way of thinking had become the primary problem, but they perceived it as an advantage because they regarded their thinking as wisdom “professing themselves to be wise” and….

2. “Their foolish heart was darkened.” This is the beginning of the descent into depravity.
Thinking is a God-given capacity. God created us with the capacity for thought and reason, but this can also be turned into a function against God and against revealed truth as this text clearly demonstrates.

Human reason is inherently regarded by man as the means to social progress and advancement. Human reason has been championed as the solution to the human condition, but human reason is no substitute for revealed truths.

These three verses impress upon us how critical it is to allow our thinking to be influenced by the revelation of God. When our thinking is no longer affected by the word of God, this creates a decline of the human condition.

Paul shows that whenever man sets aside the word of God, this will ultimately result in chaos and death. So, this becomes a terminal condition. One fundamental truth stands out. If God is not allowed to impose upon us a revealed standard of behavior, he will most certainly impose his wrath.

In this state of affairs, the human conscience was completely disregarded. The conscience was no longer heeded. It was no longer allowed to judge perverse behavior, and as a result, “their foolish heart was darkened.” They were no longer able to recognize or acknowledge truth. They were no longer able to distinguish between right and wrong, between truth and error, between good and evil.

The very real consequence of this is that human reasoning simply cannot bear the weight of human existence. When our thinking is cut off from the word of God, and we begin to act independently of God, then eventually, realty forces us to the conclusion that human wisdom is simply not strong enough to bear the weight even of our own individual lives. It cannot resolve the stress of situations or circumstances, especially those of an extreme or catastrophic nature; nor can it answer the more profound questions of the human dilemma. What begins to show up then is a collapse of all standards of morality.

When things go wrong and society begins to collapse morally, the problem will always be directly linked back to the human mind that has broken itself off from this unity with God. The impact of this on any society will inevitably be the rise of all manner of injustice, violence, depravity, corruption, lawlessness, and every kind of perverted lusts.

This is the legacy of such a mind and no government policies, or psychology, or misdirected sympathies, or educational programs, nor the judicial system will ever be able to change or reverse this terminal condition. The reason is because the answer is simply beyond man. Why on earth then would the Church seek to embrace the wisdom of the world as a means of resolution, particularly in such areas as conflict resolution.

3. “Professing to be wise, they became fools.”
This represents a progressive change of status; they had not always been fools. At one time, God was acknowledged and revealed truth was recognized. This departure from the word of God destroyed the unity between God and the mind of man. Man has redefined what it means to be wise. This is human wisdom that is now completely unfettered by the word of God. The idea of restriction imposed by the word of God on human behavior is now seen by man as something that retards social progress and development so, we have to get rid of it. The human solution is to simply remove the word of God.

In the mind of the progressive, human wisdom has set us free from all of these so-called antiquated moral ideas of the past and their demands upon our behavior. The truth is however, that fools in their displacement of the word of God are not better off, they are not progressive, they are not free, they just believe they are. Does this sound familiar. It should. This is the mind of America today.

4. Then comes the exchange, 23.
What we see here is the mechanism of idolatry. What we have when we string all of this together is a conscience that is suppressed by human will and emancipated from revealed knowledge. Human reason has become corrupted, and the result was the exchange of “the glory of the incorruptible God... for... the... corruptible.”

The Spirit is telling us here that the futile and darkened thinking of man has taken unto itself the power to decide what is true independently of the knowledge of God. So, the futile mind elevates the natural to the place of God as they begin to worship created things. These are the people who insist that the God of the Bible is dead, that he is a myth, that he is nothing more than the creation of a per-scientific generation that did not know as much as we do, and that God is simply the product of an unsophisticated and superstitious mind that just does not know any better. Now that the reality of God has been dismissed, full idolatry is instituted, and for only one purpose – to control the minds of the people; and to do that, you first have to lock their minds into lies. Here is how this works.

a. First, the conscience must be suppressed and separated from the word of God.

b. Then, thinking must be completely broken away from the reality of God. Thinking is now restricted to natural causation as the ultimate force in the universe. This is evolution.

c. Then, comes the exchange as man becomes the sole arbitrator of what he believes to be true, right, and good.

d. Finally, there is the shift into rationalized idolatry whereby man is locked into a set of false representations about absolute reality. Man's perception of reality is no longer allowed to include the unseen world of God, and even the very notion of God is dismissed as mere foolishness.
 

NotmebutHim

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May 17, 2015
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#14
I think that the second half of Romans 1 hearkens back to Genesis 2, where God told Adam (& Eve and the rest of mankind by extension) that in the day that he eats from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil, he would surely die.

Romans 1 is one part of Scripture that shows us where that knowledge can lead.

The knowledge of good & evil only serves to show us that we don't meet God's standard and that we need a Savior.
 

Pilgrimshope

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#15
Since Paul uses καθορᾶται he his speaking of things that are understood or perceived with the mind. This tells us that a proper representation of the things the natural world are designed to create in us an elevated representation of God and the wisdom and power of God.
Amen
 

oldhermit

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#16
Reduction to the lowest element is the result of the human mind separating itself from God. This reduction then gives birth to the idea of natural causality.

1. Natural causality is a false idea generated by man about God and reality.
In other words, God is no longer perceived as the causative agent of the universe. The universe is considered to be nothing more than the product of a series of natural cause to effect events. This is the big bang, this is the law of natural processes, this is evolutionary natural selection.

Natural causality shuts God out of the universe and out of human affairs as far as man is concerned. Causation is thought of strictly in naturalistic terms.

2. As a line of reasoning, natural causality has been pushed into our minds by the academic and scientific community all of our lives. This is forced into the minds of our children through the educational apparatus from the very moment they begin their formal education, and it follows them to the completion of their higher academic pursuits. It is completely relentless in its goal to control the human mind.

3. Natural causality praises nature above all other things. We know this because, "Corruptible man, birds, four-footed animals, and crawling creatures" are now glorified and deified.

The ultimate end of this line of reasoning is that in the final analysis, man is nothing more than an animal and ultimately, the animal becomes more important than man. If you do not believe that, just try shooting a whooping crane or a spotted owl or get caught abusing a pet. Now, I am not advocating the killing of protected species, nor am I advocating the abuse of any other animal. I simply use these examples to stress the fact that the welfare of an animal has become more important to many people than the welfare of man and of far more value that a human fetus. In evidence of this, these same people have absolutely no aversion whatsoever to murdering an unborn child by ripping it from its mother's womb. This is the product of atheistic reasoning toward the natural world. This is reasoning that is now completely shut off from the word of God.

4. So, what does this say about natural causality as a human solution?
When our first response to situations, circumstances, and temptation is to employ human reasoning to provide a solution, and when the power of God is treated as nothing more than a distant historical phenomenon to which we no longer have access, and when we become concerned with being 'rationalistic', 'pragmatic', and 'practical' as the world uses these terms, then you can rest assured that natural causality has overtaken our reasoning.

By way of definition, natural causality is nothing more than a shift of focus and dependency from the eternal to the natural. It is an appeal to the natural world rather than the mind of God to define truth. This is what precipitated the social collapse of those in chapter one. The doctrine of natural causality is not a new phenomenon. This is seen operating as a pattern of human reasoning in the minds of many biblical characters.

a. You see it all through the book numbers. You see it when Israel shut God out at Kadesh-barnea when the spies returned with what the text calls “an evil report.”

b. You see it when Saul fell prey to it at Gilgal in 1 Samuel 13 when all confidence in God had been displaced and Israel fled from the presence of the Philistine armies.

c. You see it in Genesis 12 when Abraham chose to go to Egypt in fear of the famine rather than remaining in Canaan and trusting the Lord to provide. Or when he and Sarah chose the Hagar option as a way to fill the gap in the logical sequence of human reproduction.

5. But how does natural causality factor into social decline?
The embrace of natural causality is a necessary condition for reducing the mind to the lowest element of human behavior. It cannot be done without it. If you want to change the behavior of a society, you must first change the way people think. To change the way people think you must first change the foundation by which men determine what is true.

This is precisely what we do when we preach the gospel. We establish the word of God as the foundation of truth. This then changes the mind of the hearer which in turn changes his behavior. This is the process of conversion. But as our text demonstrates, it also works the other way around.

Scripture reveals that the Lord has spoken to the human conscience both through nature and through the instrument of scripture, but in order to affect the decline, the conscience must first become calloused against all communication from the Lord. This is what happened to those of chapter one, and that is precisely what is happening in our nation today.

The fact that the wrath of God is poured out upon man for this kind of willful ignorance should make it very clear to us that the Lord will not allow this to go unchallenged. God will NOT be ignored or overruled, not by the world, not by you and me, not by time or history, not by nature, and not by the Church. Paul shows us that it was the embrace of natural causality that began this collapse of society. But this was just the beginning.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#17
I think that the second half of Romans 1 hearkens back to Genesis 2, where God told Adam (& Eve and the rest of mankind by extension) that in the day that he eats from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil, he would surely die.

Romans 1 is one part of Scripture that shows us where that knowledge can lead.

The knowledge of good & evil only serves to show us that we don't meet God's standard and that we need a Savior.
“ This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But

if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬


the knowledge of Good And evil created this conflict in our consciousness that was not Gods design for us . We are t supposed to struggle with good and evil , that’s what it was forbidden only through our transgression did we become conflicted and become. Restful of redemption from sin and death

“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:3, 21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there is a conflict in us because of good and evil we hear Satans temptations as clearly as Gods word it created this conflict



Our
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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#18
Would anyone be interested in studying Rom. 1:18-32 with me?
Sure. Let's take verse 18.

THE WRATH OF GOD PRESENTED BEFORE THE GOOD NEWS OF THE GOSPEL
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

1. When and how was the wrath of God revealed from Heaven between creation and the cross? We read about the universal Flood at the time of Noah in the Bible. But it is also recorded in the annals of pagans. Thus the wrath of God was revealed to humanity. But again we see the wrath of God recorded in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and many of the Canaanite cities. Then we see the wrath of God against Pharaoh and Egypt, which was published throughout that region. Later we see the wrath of God against the wicked and idolatrous kingdoms of Israel and Judah. No doubt these incidents were know and broadcast in the ancient world, so that all men had heard about this things. In other word, the ancients were not ignorant about the wrath of God against all the ungodliness and unrighteousness of men.

2. How do the ungodly hold the truth in unrighteousness? Even though men knew about the existence and just demands of a holy and righteousness God, they persisted in choosing sin and idolatry over and over again. We see this in the history of Israel, as well as in all the pagan nations. We also see this in the histories of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. All idolatry had its roots in Babel (Babylonia) and spread to every nation and continent. And that is what Paul addresses next.
 

Blik

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Dec 6, 2016
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#19
As I read the text I see it as a simple warning to read all scripture as inspired by the true God, not one that we imagine in our minds.

We need a true picture of God as especially Psalms tells us about His attributes, and need to know all scripture is inspired by that God.
 

Journeyman

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Jan 10, 2019
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#20
I think the way we need to approach this text is to focus on the disease rather than the symptoms. .
The disease is unbelief, forgetting about God. Even from vs.18, Pauls clear teaching that Gods wrath is revealed against those who hold back the truth has been distorted by the heretical belief that Gods wrath was revealed against his Son. who never held back the truth.