God's FREE Gift of {temporary?} ETERNAL Life!

[FreeGrace2]

Sorry, I have been very busy and do not have time to answer everything at least right now. I also found out my adopted son passed away last night

Very sorry to hear that.

Please answer to me how a person can have a dead nonexistant faith (mere belief) and be saved?

Yes. You added a nonexistent word to the mix here, which is dead nonexistent faith.

If there is NO faith, then it is nonexistent. But let me ask you this; when a person dies physically, is their body nonexistent? Or even their soul? Of course not. So your question is irrelevant. It's a non question, really.

A dead faith is a faith in Christ (that that saves) but is not producing fruit. I know you apparently don't believe that.

I gave examples from Scripture showing that believers are supposed to bear fruit. But you haven't shown any verses that say that believers will bear fruit. In fact, the Bible commands us to do that. Proving it isn't automatic or guaranteed.

Paul said we are saved by faith, Not mere belief and he made it clear in eph 2; 10 that saved people will work the works they were crated (saved to do)

OK, let's unpack this verse. First, there is nothing in the Bible about "mere belief" as if that doesn't save. Remember Paul's answer to the jailer's question, "what MUST I DO to be saved?". He said, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." No mention about works.

In fact, Paul denies works are involved in salvation. Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9. I'll let you look them up for your own edification.

Second, Eph 2:10 isn't any kind of guarantee about works.

"For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." There is nothing about WILL DO. Believers were created TO DO good works. It doesn't say everyone will do them.

We also see in hebrews the faith hall of fame. One thing is clear, People who had faith had works

This really doesn't prove anything.

True faith works.

This is a Calvinist talking point only. There is no Scripture that says this, yet there are many verses that command believers to bear fruit.

Don't tell me you have faith in someone, yet NEVER do a word they say That is what James was saying.

No he wasn't. I explained ch 2. Didn't you read any of it?

The people in james 2 were hearers not doers.

Agreed. And believers. All scholars agree that James wrote to saved Jews.

He called these fake believers out as having a dead faith

So now you're adding another unbiblical word, 'fake', huh. No such thing.

Because if they had true saving faith they would not just be hearers, they would also be doers (not perfect. But you would see a change in their life)

Yes, that is a Calvinist talking point. But not biblical.

Anyway just asking Not trying to be argumentative

Hey, this is a forum. It's fine to disagree. The point is to have solid evidence from Scripture with which to disagree with others.

I am prepared to refute the Calvinist talking points. And before anyone concludes that I am Arminian, I believe in eternal security more than the Calvinists. When they see someone considered a believer who gets deep into sin, and then dies, they conclude that he never "really" believed. The Bible doesn't give them the right to that conclusion.

Again, very sorry about your son. I'm happy to continue our discussion when you have some time.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Very sorry to hear that.


Yes. You added a nonexistent word to the mix here, which is dead nonexistent faith.

If there is NO faith, then it is nonexistent. But let me ask you this; when a person dies physically, is their body nonexistent? Or even their soul? Of course not. So your question is irrelevant. It's a non question, really.

A dead faith is a faith in Christ (that that saves) but is not producing fruit. I know you apparently don't believe that.

no I do not believe this, even demons believe and tremble, dead faith is no faith at all, no one has ever been saved by dead faith we are saved by faith, if our faith is real and we are born again, God changes us into new creatures.
once again, if I have faith in someone, I at least do something they ask (works)

also, na,es did not say they had faith, he said they ”claimed” to have faith, you claim I added a word, I just interpreted what a dead faith is, it is a claimed faith only

I gave examples from Scripture showing that believers are supposed to bear fruit. But you haven't shown any verses that say that believers will bear fruit. In fact, the Bible commands us to do that. Proving it isn't automatic or guaranteed.


OK, let's unpack this verse. First, there is nothing in the Bible about "mere belief" as if that doesn't save. Remember Paul's answer to the jailer's question, "what MUST I DO to be saved?". He said, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." No mention about works.

In fact, Paul denies works are involved in salvation. Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9. I'll let you look them up for your own edification.

Second, Eph 2:10 isn't any kind of guarantee about works.

"For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." There is nothing about WILL DO. Believers were created TO DO good works. It doesn't say everyone will do them.


This really doesn't prove anything.


This is a Calvinist talking point only. There is no Scripture that says this, yet there are many verses that command believers to bear fruit.


No he wasn't. I explained ch 2. Didn't you read any of it?


Agreed. And believers. All scholars agree that James wrote to saved Jews.


So now you're adding another unbiblical word, 'fake', huh. No such thing.


Yes, that is a Calvinist talking point. But not biblical.


Hey, this is a forum. It's fine to disagree. The point is to have solid evidence from Scripture with which to disagree with others.

I am prepared to refute the Calvinist talking points. And before anyone concludes that I am Arminian, I believe in eternal security more than the Calvinists. When they see someone considered a believer who gets deep into sin, and then dies, they conclude that he never "really" believed. The Bible doesn't give them the right to that conclusion.

Again, very sorry about your son. I'm happy to continue our discussion when you have some time.

1. I am not calvinist, so you can back that thought out of your mind
2. I showed you 2 passages, what you care to do about them is not on me
3. I gave you a living example of how can you claim to have faith in someone yet not once ever do as they say (James did not say did some works, he said do no works period)
4. I believe in the power of God to save lives, I reject a legalistic works based gospel as well as a licentious belief only gospel. James is speaking to licentious people, paul spoke to legalistic people, that’s why they appear to contradict when they do not
5. yes, paul said believe, you can’t faith someone, the word translated belief I. That passage is the same word translated faith, the demons believe Jesus is who he says he is, they even believe he died on the cross, they tremble, because they even beliefe their fate is sealed, what they never did was have faith in God,

 

[wattie]

Again it's the case of 'the faith's and 'saving faith'

James chapter 2 is the likes of mainly the faith. Sanctification.

Then scriptures like John 3:16 are saving faith.. justification.

Failing in 'the faith'doesnt undo saving faith.

Like a child born into a family.. they dont lose family membership if they are naughty

 

[FreeGrace2]

no I do not believe this, even demons believe and tremble, dead faith is no faith at all

sigh. Even v.19 is woefully misunderstood. James said nothing about the faith of demons, yet it seems everyone says that. v.19 simply notes that the demons believe that God One, or monotheism.

Do you think that all believing is by faith? Or can you accept the fact that a lot of believing comes directly from experience, which is no faith at all. Here's an example.

A mother tells her young son that the stove top is hot. The son doesn't believe his mom and touches the stove top and burns his finger. Now he BELIEVES the stove is hot.

Another family. A mother tells her young son the stove top is hot. The young son BELIEVES his mom and doesn't touch the stove top. Why? He had faith in his mom.

So, James wasn't saying anything about demons having a "dead faith". In fact, they KNEW that God is One because they experienced it before they rebelled. So anyone who mentions "faith of demons" fails to understand anything about v.19.

I explained v.18 to show what James was talking about. If you disagre with what i've explained, please address what you don't believe and explain why you believe what you do.

no one has ever been saved by dead faith we are saved by faith

Since James wasn't talking about saving faith anyway, your comment isn't valid. And the Bible doesn't say that people aren't saved by a dead faith.

In fact, what you are really saying is that if one's faith isn't accompanied by works/deeds, it isn't a saving faith.

I cited Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 to prove that isn't correct.

Again, since you disagree, please explain why you do.

if our faith is real and we are born again, God changes us into new creatures.

Yes, being born again, of having a new birth, we ARE new creatures, per 2 Cor 5:17. But that doesn't mean we WILL change our behavior.

Why are there so many commands and exhortations for holy living IF IF IF saved people WILL live that way??

Why did Paul tell the Ephesian believers (saved people) to "live NO LONGER like the Gentiles" (unbelievers)? Eph 4:17

once again, if I have faith in someone, I at least do something they ask (works)

It's not that simple. I've given you solid evidence for my understanding of Scripture.

also, na,es did not say they had faith, he said they ”claimed” to have faith, you claim I added a word, I just interpreted what a dead faith is, it is a claimed faith only

You're just reading too much into the verse. Again, Paul told the saved Ephesians to live NO LONGER like the Gentiles. Explain that one.

If Paul thought those Ephesians weren't saved, why would he waste time talking about behavior? He would have told them how to be saved, like he did with the jailer.

1. I am not calvinist, so you can back that thought out of your mind

It seems most of evangelicalism misunderstands James 2.

2. I showed you 2 passages, what you care to do about them is not on me
3. I gave you a living example of how can you claim to have faith in someone yet not once ever do as they say (James did not say did some works, he said do no works period)

Your argument is lost to Paul's exhortation to the saved Ephesians in 4:17.

4. I believe in the power of God to save lives, I reject a legalistic works based gospel as well as a licentious belief only gospel.

There is no such thing as either kind of faith. Or the Bible (not you or someone else) would have said so plainly. Your words betray your claim to biblicalism by "belief only gospel". That sound like you require works to be included to be saved. Well, both Eph 2:8,9 and Rom 4:4,5 refute that idea.

James is speaking to licentious people, paul spoke to legalistic people, that’s why they appear to contradict when they do not

Where do you get the notion that James was writing to licentious people?? Actually, Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles and they were hardly legalistic. The Ephesians were Gentiles.

5. yes, paul said believe, you can’t faith someone, the word translated belief I. That passage is the same word translated faith, the demons believe Jesus is who he says he is, they even believe he died on the cross, they tremble, because they even beliefe their fate is sealed, what they never did was have faith in God,

This is a bit of a word game.

Believe is a verb, faith is a noun. To believe in someone is to trust in someone. That's what "having faith" means.

Let's take an inanimate object to illustrate.

When you are driving on a trip and come to a bridge over a very high gorge, do you stop and check everything out to make sure the bridge will hold you and your car up? Or do you simply trust that the bridge will hold you both up?

The only reason you drive over the bridge is because you trust the bridge. Or "have faith" in the bridge.

You are conflating trusting in the work of Christ with your own work, which is works/deeds.

The NT is very clear that believers are commanded to to holy and blameless. It is not automatic.

Have you considered the implications of grieving the Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19)?

How can any believer bear fruit when doing either of those things? And Paul told his saved audiences to NOT do those things.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again it's the case of 'the faith's and 'saving faith'

James chapter 2 is the likes of mainly the faith. Sanctification.

Then scriptures like John 3:16 are saving faith.. justification.

Failing in 'the faith'doesnt undo saving faith.

Like a child born into a family.. they dont lose family membership if they are naughty

Well said! Seems many conflate the 2.

 

[Guojing]

Sure. But let's examine the actual context for that verse. The context is the 7 year Tribulation. So "the end" refers to the end of the 7 years of Tribulation.

Therefore, that verse applies ONLY to those who will be going through it. So it cannot be a verse about final salvation. It's about deliverance from danger, and living through the Trib.


Could you explain to me how John 10:28, which is as clear as can be for eternal security, is a "cherry-picked" verse?

What Arminians don't have is any clearly stated verse about losing salvation. So they have to take verses out of context, and mis-interpret them to get to their opinions.

For Israel, eternal life is only given to them, in the future, when Jesus returns for them. So its a future promise.

You thus cannot use that to say they have eternal security now, Peter mentioned this in 1 Peter 4:17-18.

The point is, John 10:28 is only clear "in your head" because you are interpreting that as Jesus is giving them eternal life NOW, which is not stated in the context.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
"Could you explain to me how John 10:28, which is as clear as can be for eternal security, is a "cherry-picked" verse?

What Arminians don't have is any clearly stated verse about losing salvation. So they have to take verses out of context, and mis-interpret them to get to their opinions."

For Israel, eternal life is only given to them, in the future, when Jesus returns for them. So its a future promise.

Nope. Jesus was very clear about who gets eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

The word "whoever" isn't defined by "Israel only". And John 3:16 is just as clear. "For God so loved the WORLD. Jesus didn't say "world of the Jew".

Further, the tense for believe and "has eternal life" are present tense. Meaning, of course, that WHEN a person believes, at that MOMENT they possess eternal life. That means anyone and everyone.

You thus cannot use that to say they have eternal security now

I sure can. Those given eternal life, which is when a person believes, receives eternal life at that MOMENT.

Peter mentioned this in 1 Peter 4:17-18.

Well, let's just see what Peter wrote:
17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
18 And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”

I cannot imagine how you understand this verse. But it doesn't support your comments.

The point is, John 10:28 is only clear "in your head" because you are interpreting that as Jesus is giving them eternal life NOW, which is not stated in the context.

John 3:16 and 5:24 PROVES that Jesus gives believers eternal life WHEN they believe. So the Bible refutes your opinion.

Now, please provide the verse or verses that clearly indicate that Jesus only gives eternal life to Jews. I don't believe you.

 

[Guojing]

Well, let's just see what Peter wrote:
17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
18 And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”

I cannot imagine how you understand this verse. But it doesn't support your comments.

If you are saved right now, your sins are already judged at the cross, so why would Peter say to Israel

Judgement would begin for them?
Why would it be hard for the righteous to be saved?

All these indicate that Israel don't have the present salvation that we have in the Body of Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, let's just see what Peter wrote:
17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
18 And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”

I cannot imagine how you understand this verse. But it doesn't support your comments.

If you are saved right now, your sins are already judged at the cross, so why would Peter say to Israel

Judgement would begin for them?

Apparently you are confused about how to understand the NT. Peter was writing to SAVED people. Not "Jewish people". Whether they were ethnic Jews or not is totally irrelevant to what Peter and ALL the NT writers wrote.

They ALL wrote to believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is the principle:
Gal 3-
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

So, every believer is "one in Christ". And "Abraham's offspring".

Why would it be hard for the righteous to be saved?

This is from a commentary on the phrase "time for judgment to begin" -

"This may be an allusion to Mal. 3:1-6 where judgment starts with the Messiah coming suddenly and surprisingly to His own people (to whom much is given, much is required, cf. Jer. 25:29). If there are willfully unrepentant sinners among God's people (and there are) they will be judged first. Their only hope is the unchanging character of YHWH (cf. Mal. 1:6).
This phrase may also be a Jewish idiom of the nearness of the Second Coming of Christ as Judge. The OT Jews (and the NT Apostles) envisioned a catastrophic conclusion to human history, often called "the birth pains of the new age," which is clearly stated by Jesus Himself in Mark 13:8."

"the household of God" There are two building metaphors in 1 Peter that relate to the church:

1. the church as a temple built from living stones (cf. 1 Pet. 2:4-10)
2. the church as the household of God (corporate metaphor of people or large family home, cf. 1 Pet. 4:17; 1 Tim. 3:15; Heb. 3:6)

And regarding "if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved"

This is an allusion to Pro. 11:31 in the Septuagint ( "if the righteous is scarcely saved, where will the impious and sinner appear?"

All these indicate that Israel don't have the present salvation that we have in the Body of Christ.

The failure to understand what Paul wrote in Gal 3:28,29 drives your misunderstanding of other verses.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

sigh. Even v.19 is woefully misunderstood. James said nothing about the faith of demons, yet it seems everyone says that. v.19 simply notes that the demons believe that God One, or monotheism.

Do you think that all believing is by faith? Or can you accept the fact that a lot of believing comes directly from experience, which is no faith at all. Here's an example.

A mother tells her young son that the stove top is hot. The son doesn't believe his mom and touches the stove top and burns his finger. Now he BELIEVES the stove is hot.

Another family. A mother tells her young son the stove top is hot. The young son BELIEVES his mom and doesn't touch the stove top. Why? He had faith in his mom.

So, James wasn't saying anything about demons having a "dead faith". In fact, they KNEW that God is One because they experienced it before they rebelled. So anyone who mentions "faith of demons" fails to understand anything about v.19.[/quote]

Sigh? Please my friend. Humble up.. I am just as frustrated. but we are trying to discuss this issue

Again I disagree, and I in my view your examples do not fit.

Again, I do believe one can believe and not have faith

We need a better example than the one you used. An example i have used numerous times to explain what James is trying to say here (the difference between living faith and dead faith or mere belief)

A man pulls a tightrope over the Niagra Falls

He then fills a wheelbarrow with about 170 lbs and pushes it across to the other side and back again.

He then asks the group of people who gathered around to see what he was doing if they believe he could push a human across and back again, They all raise their hand stating they BELIEVE he can push a human to the other side.

He then asks for volunteers. No one raised their hand.. why? Although they BELIEVED he could do it. They did not have FAITH he would succeed. Due to lack of faith, there was no action.

as i have stated numerous times. Faith produces action. Not everyone who claims to have faith has true saving faith.

I am really concerned you think people who are hearers of the word but not doers have been saved just because they claim to have faith. Just because a person claims it, does not mean they have it.

That why he used the example of demons, I disagree with your argument there. He was stating a fact. Demons believe also. Yet how does it profit them? Just mere belief has never saved anyone.

I am going to split this response up. It is getting so long it is hard to follow

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Since James wasn't talking about saving faith anyway, your comment isn't valid. And the Bible doesn't say that people aren't saved by a dead faith.

In fact, what you are really saying is that if one's faith isn't accompanied by works/deeds, it isn't a saving faith.

I cited Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 to prove that isn't correct.

Again, since you disagree, please explain why you do.

Jamed 2: 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Can you please explain, since James ask the specific question, if that "claimed faith" could save that person. why you think he is not talking about salvation?

This does not even adress the times James uses the word justified. again, a salvation term.

Yes, being born again, of having a new birth, we ARE new creatures, per 2 Cor 5:17. But that doesn't mean we WILL change our behavior.

Why are there so many commands and exhortations for holy living IF IF IF saved people WILL live that way??

Why did Paul tell the Ephesian believers (saved people) to "live NO LONGER like the Gentiles" (unbelievers)? Eph 4:17

So you believe a person can be saved, yet not change in even 1 Area?

The scriptures you gave talk about specific things, Not every area in a persons life.

The exortations are there because not everyone changes everything all at once. I am still growing after 40 years.. But if I still lived as I did before I got saved. Well according to john. I am still a habitual sinner and have never seen God.

It's not that simple. I've given you solid evidence for my understanding of Scripture.

And I have given you counter points. What you call SOLID, is weak. Again, I ask you to be humble and try to not use these types of words.. In my view, I have given you solid scriptures and evidence. But if we just keep telling each other we have solid this and that we will get no where.

again going to break this up...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're just reading too much into the verse. Again, Paul told the saved Ephesians to live NO LONGER like the Gentiles. Explain that one.

I think your reading to much into that passage and trying to use it to support that people can be licentious hearers but not doers believers and be saved.

Now if a person got saved now and died shortly the after. yeah I can see it. But the people james spoke about were going to the churches. So these are not new claimed believers.

Considering the fact paul said this

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:

That he was questioning them, Just like James questioned those in chapter 2. So I think he was doing exactly that, Not everyone in a church is saved, There are many "make believers" when you or paul or james or anyone esle talks. You talk to everyone and do not assume everyone is saved.

It seems most of evangelicalism misunderstands James 2.

I do not follow "Most"

and it seems you misunderstand it yourself. But again, Thats a mute argument or what many call a strawman, Lets stick to facts of discussion not accusations.

Your argument is lost to Paul's exhortation to the saved Ephesians in 4:17.

1. You did not repond to my two points, you just made a strawman,

2. Already refuted this argument. Lets try to stick to james 2 in context ok? You said that james said he was not talking to salvation. I proved he was. Can we go back to this please?

There is no such thing as either kind of faith. Or the Bible (not you or someone else) would have said so plainly. Your words betray your claim to biblicalism by "belief only gospel". That sound like you require works to be included to be saved. Well, both Eph 2:8,9 and Rom 4:4,5 refute that idea.

I agree, They are not faith at all

A legalist believes in faith plus works. Which is what paul was refuting in Romans 4 when he said abraham believed God and God accredited to him as righteousness. Hence why PAUL said we are justified by faith alone

James on the other hand, Is directing his argument to people who CLAIM to have faith but HAS NO WORKS, Ie hearers of the word not doers. ie, what Jude calls people who turn the grace of God to licentiousness. They have no faith whatsoever, James called their faith Dead. That why James said in his argument abraham was not just justifed by faith but by works (an appearant contradiction to paul. unless put in the right context) and called their faith dead.

Where do you get the notion that James was writing to licentious people?? Actually, Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles and they were hardly legalistic.

lol. Paul was arguing against legalism in most of his passages. Galations is an argument against legalism, Romans 4 was an argument against legalism. Many of pauls discussion of faith alone apart from works was against hose who wanted to try to preach the true gospel was faith not works.

I assumed you understood this, Forgive me for assuming

again going to split his quote up

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is a bit of a word game.

Believe is a verb, faith is a noun. To believe in someone is to trust in someone. That's what "having faith" means.

Let's take an inanimate object to illustrate.

When you are driving on a trip and come to a bridge over a very high gorge, do you stop and check everything out to make sure the bridge will hold you and your car up? Or do you simply trust that the bridge will hold you both up?

The only reason you drive over the bridge is because you trust the bridge. Or "have faith" in the bridge.

You are conflating trusting in the work of Christ with your own work, which is works/deeds.

The NT is very clear that believers are commanded to to holy and blameless. It is not automatic.

Have you considered the implications of grieving the Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19)?

How can any believer bear fruit when doing either of those things? And Paul told his saved audiences to NOT do those things.

Once again answered in my example in the first post.

Even legalistic people believe in God. yes. the jews who wanted to add circumcision to the gospel believed in Jesus, But Paul said they were damned because they were under a different gospel.

They believed in Jesus, but their FAITH was in their works.

Thats also why many went back to the law. They BELIEVED, but their faith was in the law.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sigh? Please my friend. Humble up.. I am just as frustrated. but we are trying to discuss this issue

Again I disagree, and I in my view your examples do not fit.

They actually do fit the issue of the difference between believing and having faith.

Again, I do believe one can believe and not have faith

Then why don't you understand James 2:19 then?

We need a better example than the one you used.

If you don't like my example, can you explain why?

An example i have used numerous times to explain what James is trying to say here (the difference between living faith and dead faith or mere belief)

I'll stop here. With your erroneouos "mere belief" comment. It is obvious to me that you are too biased to grasp the truth.

A man pulls a tightrope over the Niagra Falls

He then fills a wheelbarrow with about 170 lbs and pushes it across to the other side and back again.

He then asks the group of people who gathered around to see what he was doing if they believe he could push a human across and back again, They all raise their hand stating they BELIEVE he can push a human to the other side.

He then asks for volunteers. No one raised their hand.. why? Although they BELIEVED he could do it. They did not have FAITH he would succeed. Due to lack of faith, there was no action.

So?

as i have stated numerous times. Faith produces action.

No, you still miss James' point. Faith NEEDS to produce action in order to demonstrate that faith to others.

Not everyone who claims to have faith has true saving faith.

The Bible doesn't teach that.

I am really concerned you think people who are hearers of the word but not doers have been saved just because they claim to have faith. Just because a person claims it, does not mean they have it.

First, I'm saying anything about what is claimed. I'm talking about what is believed, not "claimed" to believe. Of course people can lie, etc in order to get something.

That why he used the example of demons, I disagree with your argument there.

Then explain what was in error with what I posted. Demons believe because they have EXPERIENCED the fact that God is One. That's why they know it. They don't have faith that God is One, but they sure do believe it.

In order to "have faith", they would have to have taken someone's word for it.

That's the difference that you seem to miss.

He was stating a fact. Demons believe also. Yet how does it profit them? Just mere belief has never saved anyone.

Maybeyou should go tell the apostle Paul that his answer to the jailer was in error then.

 

[FreeGrace2]

again going to break this up...

Uh, you're breaking me up. lol

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think your reading to much into that passage and trying to use it to support that people can be licentious hearers but not doers believers and be saved.

There's your problem. Worried that immoral people will still get into heaven. As if they don't deserve it. Well, neither you or I deserve it either.

Are you not aware of what Paul told the Corinthian congregation?
2 Cor 12-
20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.
21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

And nothing about not being saved.

Now if a person got saved now and died shortly the after. yeah I can see it. But the people james spoke about were going to the churches. So these are not new claimed believers.

Irrelevant to the discussion of salvation. All you are trying to do is insert works into the way to get saved. I'll have none of it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

They believed in Jesus, but their FAITH was in their works.

Here's the deal. The phrase "believed in Jesus" is vague. You need to explain exactly what is believed about Jesus.

1. That He was just a good man.
2. That He was a Jew.
3. That He was from Galille.
4. That He influenced a lot of people.

Do any of these beliefs save anyone? No.

This is what saves people.

Believing that Jesus is the Son of God, who died on the cross for the sins of everyone, and gives eternal life to everyone who trusts in Him for it. That's what saves.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They actually do fit the issue of the difference between believing and having faith.

In your view. But whatever

Then why don't you understand James 2:19 then?

I understand it completely. But it is evident you are closed minded and all you can do is mock and attack me because I disagree with you

If you don't like my example, can you explain why?

I did. But it is obvious you can not grasp anything I say

I'll stop here. With your erroneouos "mere belief" comment. It is obvious to me that you are too biased to grasp the truth.

Yeah, You best stop. Because you have nothing to offer me. It is obvious you think you are right. and nothing anyone will say will convince you. So now you have resorted to attacks. because you could not convince me with what you had.

I will let you go. I am finished, You can not discuss with people who are unable to discuss with and who think they have the truth and everyone else is wrong.

If you ever get to the point you think you are ready to humble yourself and actually discuss this. Come see me

Until then. Good day

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There's your problem. Worried that immoral people will still get into heaven. .

Stop trying to figure out what you think I see or what my problem is. And for once in your life, try to sit and understand what people are saying.

Until then. Your closed mind and pride will not allow you to see anything

What you just said here is completely off base and not even close to being true. But I know I know. You dont believe it, so it must not be true.

Again, Good day.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why is it that far to many followers of Christ are incapable of having a normal discussion with people?

It no wonder very few people last on char sites for a long time. It gets old.