Its clear that salvation cannot be lost in the church age , but what about the Old testament ? The Old testament would be the period up to the death of Jesus?
Could they lose salvation in the Old testament?
- Thread starter throughfaith
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
In the first place your statement that salvation cannot be lost is untrue. It denies scripture telling us God's message can land on rocky soil and be lost. It denies that the wages of sin in death, changing that to say that it is only true if a person has never, ever, been forgiven of a sin. It denies truths of the Lord.
In the second place, God did not change His being when Christ was crucified. God is the "I am". God is eternal, and His ways are eternal. God did not change His word, God fulfilled His word at the crucifixion.
The only difference between the new and old testament, as man has divided Gods word, is that Christ lived as a shadow of the man who was crucified in the old testament, and Christ lived as a fulfillment of that shadow in the new testament.
That's a little bit unusual to say that's the only difference ?
I've never said Jesus changed into a different being ,so that's strange also?
Saying God is eternal over and over doesn't mean anything. God clearly has dispensed with revelation over time and in different ways to different people and audiences. Over 1500 years through over 40 authors ect . The wages of sin is death. Thats why we need our Spirit to be redeemed . We need the circumcision made without hands ect . That is what is different after the cross/ resurrection/ Acts 2 .
Until you stop equating ' noticing things different in the bible ' with ' This means you want to tear out books of the bible and throw them away " Or even more silly " God hasn't changed his being " . You not going to hear what I'm saying .
If they cannot lose their salvation in the Old Testament then all the Jews would be saved because Israel as a nation was in the truth at one time, and their sins were covered every year by the blood of animals so how did they go astray as a nation and leave the truth and have other nations rule over them which God said would happen if they did not abide by the truth, but if they abide by the truth then no enemy can rule over them.
But God said in the Old Testament that they can go astray and lose their salvation.
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
The New Testament saints can be cut off like the Old Testament saints that do not obey the laws of God which in the New Testament it is moral laws, laws of love, for we no longer go by the physical laws and ordinances.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
Eze 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
Eze 33:15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
The Old Testament could lose their salvation but if they turned back to the truth they could regain their salvation.
I agree with the Ot loss of salvation. But there is a difference with a believer today . Eph 4.30 being one major differences.
And if there was no salvation in the old testament, then there is no Moses for he was old testament.
Rom 11 doesn't say new testament saints can be cut off . Gentiles as a nation yes .
Can a person that confesses Jesus as Lord and Savior leave the truth and reject Jesus as Lord and Savior and still be saved, and is it possible for them to do that for if it is possible then a person can lose salvation.
Jesus said not everyone that calls Him Lord will be saved but the Bible says that a person cannot say Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Ghost so how come they are not saved.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
God warns the saints of the new age movement, and their interpretation of the Bible based on the occult, and evolution, and people are still evolving to be spiritual provided by the New Age Christ, and Jesus is not Lord and Savior, but a good teacher and love, and the Christ conscience came upon him, and he evolved to be an ascended master, and believe in no personal God, but honor the God of forces, or the power of nature as their higher power, the evolutionary process, and the New Age Christ is the final teacher, and they believe the Christ conscience will come upon him, and he will evolve to be greater than Jesus, and share this power with all people who follow him.
These people departed from the faith but how did they do that, and followed a false interpretation of the Bible where Jesus is not Lord and Savior but a good teacher and love but how did they do that.
They went by doctrines of devils, and did not have the love of Christ for their conscience was seared with a hot iron so how did that happen if they were once in the faith if a person cannot lose salvation and we are saved by faith.
That is because charity, love in action, works, is greater than faith, and faith works by love, and these people did not show love like they were supposed to be doing so they lost salvation but how could they lose salvation if a person cannot lose salvation.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
These people were saved because they were enlightened, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, but they fell away and were not saved for it is impossible for them to leave the truth that Jesus is Lord and Savior and then believe again and be saved.
But how did they leave the truth that Jesus is Lord and Savior if they cannot lose salvation, and how did they lose salvation if salvation can never be lost.
Which the new age movement is a good example of people that departed from the faith and believed that Jesus is not Lord and Savior but a good teacher and love and lost their salvation for they cannot be saved again.
But if a person never confessed Jesus as Lord and Savior but followed the new age movement they can be saved for they did not depart from the truth.
Hello Throughfaith!
============================================================
But if the wicked man turns from all the sins he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22None of the transgressions he has committed will be held against him. Because of the righteousness he has practiced, he will live. 23Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Wouldn’t I prefer that he turn from his ways and live?
24But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, committing the same abominations as the wicked, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness and sin he has committed, he will die.
25Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’
Hear now, O house of Israel: Is it My way that is unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
26If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, he will die for this. He will die because of the iniquity he has committed.
27But if a wicked man turns from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28Because he considered and turned from all the transgressions he had committed, he will surely live; he will not die. (Ezekiel 18:21-28)
===========================================================
Also, salvation for those in Christ is dependent upon continuing in faith. If a believer turns from his faith (apostasy) and dies in that state, then that person will die in their sins.
We are saved by God's grace through faith and not by a one time confession of Christ, but by taking up our crosses daily. Therefore, if a believer turns back into the world and goes back to willfully lives according to the sinful nature, in that state he is accumulating sin and is on his way to condemnation, unless of course he repents and turns back. I gave you all of those scriptures, but here is another example:
"But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
The above is an example of those who would stop having faith and no longer watching for the Lord and turning back to living according to the sinful nature, which is represented by (And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.)
If we were just saved no matter what we did after we received Christ, what would be the purpose of all of the warnings throughout scripture, as well as the letters to the seven churches in Revelation? In those letters there are promises to those who overcome and eternal consequences for those who don't. And we can't say that they are not believers, because the letters are addressed to the church and the individuals within it.
Once saved, always saved, is true if one continues in faith to the end of their life or until the Lord comes to gather His church.
Once saved, always saved, is not true if one turns away from his faith and goes back into following the world and willfully living according to the sinful nature.
So your view is that taking up the cross daily is necessary for one to maintain his salvation?
"Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me."
Taking up your cross and following Christ, means being prepared to endure persecution and even death for ones faith in Christ.
Its interesting that my previous interaction with you, indicated to me that you do subscribe to the Pre-Tribulation rapture of the Body of Christ, which seems to indicate that you are a Pauline dispensationalist.
But now, you also believed that Jesus was speaking to us gentiles in that scriptural verse, even though Paul told us in Ephesians 2:11-12 that, at that time, we were separated from Christ?
I do subscribe to those titles such as being a Pauline dispensationalist. Whatever Paul taught is the word of the God. There is no difference between the teachings of Jesus and Paul.
What does Eph.2:11-12 have to do with the pre-tribulation gathering of the church? We (Gentiles) were once separated from God (unbelievers) and have now been brought near through faith in Christ.
I am saying, based on Ephesians 2:11-12, Jesus's words about the necessity of carrying to cross for salvation were directed to only the nation Israel.
Jesus was preaching the gospel of the kingdom to Israel then, and that gospel requires both faith and works.
The Old Testament saints were JUSTIFIED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Since God is the Justifier, should it not be perfectly clear that not a single saint could lose his or her salvation?
HEBREWS 11: SALVATION IS BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
21By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
29By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
It would be a false assumption to believe that only Israel is required to bear their crosses for salvation. For both Jew or Gentile believers, we are are all required to bear our crosses, i.e. keep our testimony for Jesus regardless of what opposes us.
Salvation is by grace through faith alone for both Jew and Gentile. We do good works as a result of our faith and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Anyone who depends on works for their salvation, will be among those who will not enter into the kingdom of God. We will surely be rewarded for those good works, but we do not obtain salvation by them.
Whether Jew or Gentile, both are saved by the following:
"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. "
There is not one plan of salvation for Israel and another for the church. It is through faith in Christ that both will be saved.