Woman can't teach in the congregation

[Dino246]

Paul is not referring to a specific verse but to a general application of what the law says about the behavior of women in the O.T. Gen 3:16 tells the woman,

"Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

This has not changed. This is the same argument Paul uses in 1 Tim 2:11-14 where he discusses the same matter of women remaining silent in the assembly which was addressed to the Church at Ephesus. It is quite clear that this is the principle of law to which Paul is referring in 1 Cor 14.

Genesis 3:16 is NOT a command requiring women to subject themselves or to be silent. It is a statement of certain consequence resulting from her choice to eat the forbidden fruit. If you think that it's a command, then I'm sure you only eat when your brow is sweating (Gen. 3:19)… right?

Of course not. Let's not be utterly ridiculous.

 

[Dino246]

Direct Question?

Do you believe practicing homosexuals should be allowed membership in the church, whatever denomination it may be?

Irrelevant to this thread. Start a new one if you want to. I'm not going to participate in your hijacking attempt.

 

[oldhermit]

Genesis 3:16 is NOT a command requiring women to subject themselves or to be silent. It is a statement of certain consequence resulting from her choice to eat the forbidden fruit. If you think that it's a command, then I'm sure you only eat when your brow is sweating (Gen. 3:19)… right?

Of course not. Let's not be utterly ridiculous.

The point you are missing is that Paul directly refers to this passage and the fact that the man was created first as reasons why the women are to remain silent in the assembly. He ends this discussion in 1 Cor 14 by saying "this is the Lord's command."

 

[Truth7t7]

Irrelevant to this thread. Start a new one if you want to. I'm not going to participate in your hijacking attempt.

It's my opinion that your denial to answer the very simple question below in diversion, is in agreement with the question, its that simple.

Question: Should practicing homosexuals be allowed membership in the church, whatever denomination it maybe?

 

[Truth7t7]

The point you are missing is that Paul directly refers to this passage and the fact that the man was created first as reasons why the women are to remain silent in the assembly. He ends this discussion in 1 Cor 14 by saying "this is the Lord's command."

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

 

[Evmur]

HI,

In my opinion, the bible says clearly that woman can't teach in the congregation. Why almost all of the denominations allow the woman to teach? And I think it's not the problem in the denominations only but in the home meetings as well.

King James version:

1. Tim. 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1. Kor. 14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1. Kor. 14:35
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Ps. I don't belong to any denomination as the bible clearly says that there is only one congregation in every city. There were no names for congregations with early Christians.

If you quote that scripture I will quote the one that says they can prophesy [preach] and pray in the congregation if so they cover their head.


Paul greets women in his epistle to the Romans who were leaders of houses, he urges the brethren to give them all assistance, he calls them co-workers and fellow labourers in the gospel.

 

[Evmur]

Sarah said "Abraham, chuck that slave woman out"
Abraham said "no"
God said "Abraham, do as Sarah has told you"
Sarah said "Abraham are you going to chuck her out?"
Abraham said "yes dear"

 

[PaulChristensen]

Don't forget Joel Osteen and his wife

They don't even preach the gospel. They preach a Jesus who is our friend, benefactor, who makes people feel good, prosperous and guarantees perfect lifelong health. That is why they attract the big crowds that fill stadiums. The road to their version of faith is a very broad one.

The is a Youtube clip about a woman prophet of Osteen's type of faith prophesying over a man, that he would be blessed of God and receive favour from Him. Then the man started encouraging the folk to put their trust in the crucified and resurrected Christ and that only through Him that folk can really obtain eternal life. The woman prophet immediately told him he had a demon and had security forcibly eject him from the meeting. This shows the total hypocrisy of the Osteen type of teaching and prophecy. One minute the man is blessed and favoured of God, the next he has a demon! Why has he a demon? Because he preached the gospel of Christ to the folks!

When godly church leaders see this sort of thing from heretical ministry like this, it is no wonder they don't want women to have any kind of teaching ministry in their churches! In fact, it is one significant way that the devil has worked to discredit women's ministry in our churches, and as a result infects church leaders with a lying spirit that tells them the same will happen to them if they allow women's ministry in their churches.

 

[PaulChristensen]

God and his very clear words are now the big bully and spiritual abuser

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Why don't you read my post about what a serious Bible scholar would do to establish a doctrine? Especially when some base doctrine on one or two verses of the Bible. If you are a church leader and denies women's ministry in your church, then I would advise that women who have a calling of God for ministry up and leave your church and wipe the dust off their shoes against you.

False teaching and culitish sects are formed by taking verses from the Bible out of context. Look up a dictionary and find out what the word "exegesis" means. Merely quoting the verses at me makes no difference to me. I have read good academic post-graduate dissertations that have carefully and extensively studied the background to those verses, based on other New Testament references to women, cultural and historical backgrounds, and have come to the conclusion that either the verses were inserted by a patristic editor, or that Paul was dealing with a specific issue in the Corinthian church where married (not single) women were disrupting services with loud questioning of prophetic words given.

If you are not prepared to read the research that others have carefully done on women's ministry in the church, then don't bother with me because I have done the research and have come to my own conclusions. Before I retired, I was a church leader for many years and found that the Holy Spirit spoke through women's ministry just as powerfully as through the men who preached and taught in my church.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Sarah said "Abraham, chuck that slave woman out"
Abraham said "no"
God said "Abraham, do as Sarah has told you"
Sarah said "Abraham are you going to chuck her out?"
Abraham said "yes dear"

I love it. I am the head of my house...whatever my wife says shall be done! Whenever my wife and I have a disagreement, I say, "Yes dear" as well! Things never change, do they?

 

[Magenta]

Yes, he sent her to tell the apostles. He did not send her to proclaim it in the assembly of the temple.

An "assembly" is when two or more are gathered in His name.

Assemblies are not confined to temples or church buildings.

 

[oldhermit]

An "assembly" is when two or more are gathered in His name.

Assemblies are not confined to temples or church buildings.

Paul certainly makes a distinction in verse 23 saying, "if the whole church comes together." This establishes the context for everything that follows concerning the restrictions placed on both the men and the women in the public assembly. Lest we forget, Paul does place some prohibitions on the men as well in this text. I wonder why no one is challenging those restrictions. No one seems to have a problem with them.

 

[Dino246]

The point you are missing is that Paul directly refers to this passage and the fact that the man was created first as reasons why the women are to remain silent in the assembly. He ends this discussion in 1 Cor 14 by saying "this is the Lord's command."

In his first letter to Timothy, Paul refers to the creation order, and to the fact that the woman was deceived. In 1 Corinthians, he makes no reference to these. Your argument is circular... and ridiculous.

 

[Dino246]

Question: Should practicing homosexuals be allowed membership in the church, whatever denomination it maybe?

Why? Are you looking for a new church to call home?

 

[oldhermit]

In his first letter to Timothy, Paul refers to the creation order, and to the fact that the woman was deceived. In 1 Corinthians, he makes no reference to these. Your argument is circular... and ridiculous.

Well, since nothing seems to be getting through to you, I think I am simply going to follow Paul's apostolic directive on this matter in verses 37 and 38.

"If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignored."

That seems like sound advice.

 

[Scribe]

Since we need new material I suggest the following:

Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; (KJV)

Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. (NIV)

Paul is expecting them to teach. And really many in the body are going to teach.
Col 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

Now one may say that this means that they can only teach the younger women but it does not say that. If people will slow down and read it without preconceived interpretations they will notice that it is not restricting women to teach women only. That interpretation is inserted to fit an idea that was not in Paul's mind as far as I can tell.


1You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine. 2Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.

3Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

One thing I notice is the similarity between this and 1 Tim 2:12. It also is similar to 1 Pet 3. When you compare these you see they are all talking about the same thing an attitude of the women to their husbands and not a ban on teaching the bible in the church or leading a church if necessary in some situation that might arise and a woman elder be found to be the one most capable for the task.

A woman elder leading a church could model this behavior of being subject to her husband for the younger to follow at the same time while serving as an elder.

 

[Truth7t7]

A woman elder leading a church could model this behavior of being subject to her husband for the younger to follow at the same time while serving as an elder.

There is no such thing as a woman Elder Leading The Church found in my KJV Holy Bible

There are (Bishops/Deacons) Leading The Church, and both are to be Married Men that rule their houses well.

Has the Assembly Of God held another conference with a (secret vote) as in (Divorce/Remarriage) in 2001, to change rules/laws in the denomination concerning female (Bishops/Deacons) or was this earlier?

 

[Scribe]

There is no such thing as a woman Elder Leading The Church found in my KJV Holy Bible

There are (Bishops/Deacons) Leading The Church, and both are to be Married Men that rule their houses well.

Has the Assembly Of God held another conference with a (secret vote) as in (Divorce/Remarriage) in 2001, to change rules/laws in the denomination concerning female (Bishops/Deacons) or was this earlier?

The AOG has been ordaining women since their beginning in 1914. Where have you been? Did you not know this?

 

[Scribe]

There is no such thing as a woman Elder Leading The Church found in my KJV Holy Bible

There are (Bishops/Deacons) Leading The Church, and both are to be Married Men that rule their houses well.

Has the Assembly Of God held another conference with a (secret vote) as in (Divorce/Remarriage) in 2001, to change rules/laws in the denomination concerning female (Bishops/Deacons) or was this earlier?

If you really want to learn about both sides of this topic, take the time to digest both of these articles.

I think you will find that the first one by Moo in compatible with your views and you would be much more effective in presenting your case for interpretation if you were able to retain all the information in this article and present it as he has here.

The second one is an answer to Moo and even if you still feel that Moo makes a better argument there are many details that Payne covers that you will find you agree with as well as not everything he says is something that Moo would disagree with.

The discussion on specific women in leadership mentioned in the KJV you might find exceptionally informative and enlightening.

Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Moo on 1 Timothy 2 vv 11-15.pdf

Philip B. Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Philip Payne Libertarian Women.PDF

 

[tribesman]

Unfortunately, some have pushed the alphabet agenda within the Church. However, it is unreasonable to assume that everyone who advocates for equality of gender regarding ministry roles would also advocate for gay rights. That is a fallacy of guilt by association, and holds no weight except for the unthinking.

Some do, some don't. That's fair. However those that do usually (if not always) use the rhetoric of those who are propagating "ordaining women to clergy" and take it that step further as they go about. And that was my very point.