Should you resist tyranny or obey - Romans 13 interpretation

[saintrose]

A friend and I have disparate views and I wondered what others thought. I believe in being proactive and when a bad law would come up I would get involved and email legislators. A friend refused to lift a finger when I would try to get her to stand on the issues. Her view is that the world is supposed to get worse as it says in Scripture.

I stumbled upon Pastor Chuck Baldwin's teaching and he makes sense to me. Then I read that they are training CLERGY to urge people to obey the government if martial law was called. If you learn about the plans ahead you'll learn that martial law is indeed planned for America. Your world may seem quite stable and you have a "normalcy bias" - a psychological comfort mechanism whereby you think it will continue on this way.

It' won't.

I urge you to read up on Agenda 21.

What are your views? Do you interpret Romans 13 to mean that we are to obey wicked leaders and never take a stand against tyranny? You may have to make that decision sooner than later because it's coming.

https://newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin773.htm

http://lookintoit.org/Clergy-Response-Teams.html

 

[Roughsoul1991]

A friend and I have disparate views and I wondered what others thought. I believe in being proactive and when a bad law would come up I would get involved and email legislators. A friend refused to lift a finger when I would try to get her to stand on the issues. Her view is that the world is supposed to get worse as it says in Scripture.

I stumbled upon Pastor Chuck Baldwin's teaching and he makes sense to me. Then I read that they are training CLERGY to urge people to obey the government if martial law was called. If you learn about the plans ahead you'll learn that martial law is indeed planned for America. Your world may seem quite stable and you have a "normalcy bias" - a psychological comfort mechanism whereby you think it will continue on this way.

It' won't.

I urge you to read up on Agenda 21.

What are your views? Do you interpret Romans 13 to mean that we are to obey wicked leaders and never take a stand against tyranny? You may have to make that decision sooner than later because it's coming.

https://newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin773.htm

http://lookintoit.org/Clergy-Response-Teams.html

There is a balance. Jesus operated under tyranny. So did His disciples. Most of them killed for standing against the powers of the day. But at the same time rendering to Ceasar what was his.

 

[posthuman]

Do you interpret Romans 13 to mean that we are to obey wicked leaders and never take a stand against tyranny?

Do you realize who was Ceasar when Paul wrote that?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Do you realize who was Ceasar when Paul wrote that?

But most of the disciples died for resisting the commands not to speak about Jesus. While many early Christians also died for choosing not to deny Jesus.

 

[posthuman]

But most of the disciples died for resisting the commands not to speak about Jesus. While many early Christians also died for choosing not to deny Jesus.

Yes I don't remember hearing anything about them trying to get elected to the Roman senate or campaigning for policy changes in the republic or getting involved in politics at all, really. And I remember Paul's advice to believers was to aspire to live a quiet life, working with their hands - not even trying to turn everyone into missionaries but to serve God where they were and live humbly, letting their lives be a witness.

So i am a bit of a 'stay out of it' kind of person, I mean, I vote, and I may talk to people a little about politics but it's not what I want to talk about, I think it is a distraction from our faith, and I am extremely suspicious of a certain political party actively trying to make merchandise of Christians and subtly deceive them into becoming their devoted pawns & spread their propaganda. IMHO they have had a lot of success.

I consider all politics worldly, and many Christians hate and slander me for it. But my stance is that my citizenship is in heaven, and a good soldier doesn't get himself entangled in such affairs.

 

[posthuman]

Not to say I would obey any law that tells me I can't talk about Christ or I can't read my Bible or anything like that. I certainly would obey God rather than man in such a case.
But we don't happen to actually have any laws in my country restricting me from doing so. So.

I mean the OP is pushing a 'agenda 21' conspiracy theory. What does that have to do with my Christian walk? Nothing. It's a carefully contrived snare and a rabbit hole to draw people away from Christ. Our job as believers is not to make the world pretend not to be worldly so that we are not offended by it. My job is not to become obsessed with crazy illuminati stuff. What's the end of that road? I hide in a cave with a bunch of canned food and guns? Is that Christianity? Nope.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Yes I don't remember hearing anything about them trying to get elected to the Roman senate or campaigning for policy changes in the republic or getting involved in politics at all, really. And I remember Paul's advice to believers was to aspire to live a quiet life, working with their hands - not even trying to turn everyone into missionaries but to serve God where they were and live humbly, letting their lives be a witness.

So i am a bit of a 'stay out of it' kind of person, I mean, I vote, and I may talk to people a little about politics but it's not what I want to talk about, I think it is a distraction from our faith, and I am extremely suspicious of a certain political party actively trying to make merchandise of Christians and subtly deceive them into becoming their devoted pawns & spread their propaganda. IMHO they have had a lot of success.

I consider all politics worldly, and many Christians hate and slander me for it. But my stance is that my citizenship is in heaven, and a good soldier doesn't get himself entangled in such affairs.

Yes I don't remember hearing anything about them trying to get elected to the Roman senate or campaigning for policy changes in the republic or getting involved in politics at all, really.

I see it differently as Paul did in fact use his Roman citizen rights and family status to infiltrate the Roman government for the purpose of spreading the gospel in Acts 25.

Getting involved with government is actually what got John the Baptist killed.

We also have the story of Esther who was brought to the King and she did everything necessary to win his heart while hiding her background. She used her status to save her people.

And I remember Paul's advice to believers was to aspire to live a quiet life, working with their hands - not even trying to turn everyone into missionaries but to serve God where they were and live humbly, letting their lives be a witness.

A quiet life? Paul died doing thd opposite. Working with their hand? May have to define that. Everyone who has hands, works with their hands. The great commission is the call for missionaries, baptism, discipleship, and teaching. Very hands on commands.

So i am a bit of a 'stay out of it' kind of person, I mean, I vote, and I may talk to people a little about politics but it's not what I want to talk about, I think it is a distraction from our faith,

Politics (from Greek: Πολιτικά, politiká, 'affairs of the cities') is the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations between individuals, such as the distribution of resources or status.

The Bible speaks into relations between people and the morals within a civilization. You see politics all within scripture.

Not a distraction but a obligation. To be the salt and light we must preserve the culture, while giving more time for the light to reach as many as possible before judgement.

and I am extremely suspicious of a certain political party actively trying to make merchandise of Christians and subtly deceive them into becoming their devoted pawns & spread their propaganda. IMHO they have had a lot of success.

Examples?

I consider all politics worldly, and many Christians hate and slander me for it. But my stance is that my citizenship is in heaven, and a good soldier doesn't get himself entangled in such affairs.

I do not hate you and do not take this as slander but edification. You are right a soldier only worries about hid mission but our mission does in fact still involve what we do with our time given on Earth.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Should you resist tyranny or obey - Romans 13 interpretation

A proper reading and interpretation of this passage is required. God is warning Christians not to be lawless, or suffer the consequences. The underlying presumption is that the government is maintaining law and order.

However, when the government itself becomes lawless and discards the rule of law, then those in government become criminals subject to the existing laws. Had Obama, Clinton, Biden, and all those lawless officials under his administration been subjected to the laws of the land, they all would be behind bars right now. Which means that tyranny would not have made its appearance.

But the COVID tyranny is just as bad and must be resisted. The day that tyrannical governors demanded that churches adhere to their restrictions was the day that all churches should have joined together to reject and ignore those restrictions, The various governments could not possibly have jailed millions of Christians, particularly when the Constitutions were still valid.

 

[posthuman]

i love you @Roughsoul1991

I see it differently as Paul did in fact use his Roman citizen rights and family status to infiltrate the Roman government for the purpose of spreading the gospel in Acts 25.

i'd say that was Paul using his citizenship to not be immediately executed. it was God who used that ((& caused it)) as to bring about Paul testifying before powerful men of the gospel of Christ.

Getting involved with government is actually what got John the Baptist killed.

i disagree -- criticizing the head of the government is what got John killed. not trying to become a part of secular government; John in fact didn't even make himself a part of secular society at all. so he wasn't 'involved in government' he just told the truth about it. John wasn't trying to become a governor and he wasn't even trying to have a different governor put in place. Herod was doing something wrong and John simply said, this is a wrong thing. it was not John's testimony -- it was not John's primary vocation to criticize Herod. John was heralding the Messiah; he was out baptizing every day not out digging up dirt on Herod and urging people to support whatever person wanted to replace Herod.

We also have the story of Esther who was brought to the King and she did everything necessary to win his heart while hiding her background. She used her status to save her people.

but we don't have this being Esther's will. we have this being the thing Esther's life became, not the thing she tried to turn her life into. Esther 2:8 -- she was taken to the king, because of circumstances that came to being after Vashti did something completely independent of Esther's control. Esther 2:10, Mordecai commanded her not to reveal that she was a Jewess, so she was not voicing her position as the LORD brought her to to her station. Esther 2:12 & 15, she didn't even give her own opinion about what might endear her to the king when she was to be brought before him. none of this was up to her. none of this was according to her effort or desire or will.

A quiet life? Paul died doing thd opposite. Working with their hand? May have to define that. Everyone who has hands, works with their hands. The great commission is the call for missionaries, baptism, discipleship, and teaching. Very hands on commands.

this is what i was referring to:

But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more; that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you, that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.​

(1 Thessalonians 4:9-11)​

​

Politics (from Greek: Πολιτικά, politiká, 'affairs of the cities') is the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations between individuals, such as the distribution of resources or status.

The Bible speaks into relations between people and the morals within a civilization. You see politics all within scripture.

Not a distraction but a obligation. To be the salt and light we must preserve the culture, while giving more time for the light to reach as many as possible before judgement.

i might agree but: we are not of the world.
so my fellowship, the 'groups' -- the citizenship -- (Greek: πολίτευμα, politeuma, 'citizenship, community, conversation.
From politeuomai; a community, i.e. (abstractly) citizenship (figuratively) -- conversation') -- is not with the world. it is with the body of Christ. ((re: Philippians 3:20))

Examples?

lol visit the news & conspiracy sections of the forum, ever . . ?

do not hate you and do not take this as slander but edification. You are right a soldier only worries about hid mission but our mission does in fact still involve what we do with our time given on Earth.

♥

i know. i know you don't -- and i think you also know it's true that not a few do

 

[posthuman]

A proper reading and interpretation of this passage is required. God is warning Christians not to be lawless, or suffer the consequences. The underlying presumption is that the government is maintaining law and order.

Paul wrote Romans while Nero was Ceaser.

just FYI.

you wanna complain? compare your situation with being used as a living human candle for the POTUS's dinner parties for no other reason but because you confess Jesus. ok? when's the last time a tiger tore your body into pieces and ate it in front of a cheering crowd of thousands? that's the gov't Paul said to respect because it was put in place by God. the martyrs did not fight back. they were glad to die for His name, and went to the slaughter meek & lowly, like sheep, like our Lord did.

 

[posthuman]

Examples?

darn i should have had the foresight to just say, examples will soon enough be attracted to this thread and make themselves evident. see post #8 for example. examine it objectively, keeping in mind that this is the Bible Discussion Forum.

 

[Blade]

Israel ..why is it still on the map? Whats written is only what we need. Every problem they had is not all written. Faught or didn't.. not all there.

This is not so simple. There are time we as believers need to fight.. yet there are others where we must KNOW is the sweet Spirit of God saying "do nothing" or "do something". We really need to think. Take Angels.. they had the armor the swords frist. They are right now fighting. Sorry lol they can but we can't? That word of God a sword ...do we KNOW it works? Or all you will get from that demon is "I know Jesus.. I know Paul but you.. I don't know".

Again.. so much of what they did didn't do is not written. God put just what we needed in His word. You pray you seek you ask Him..what He would have you do.

 

[Evmur]

A friend and I have disparate views and I wondered what others thought. I believe in being proactive and when a bad law would come up I would get involved and email legislators. A friend refused to lift a finger when I would try to get her to stand on the issues. Her view is that the world is supposed to get worse as it says in Scripture.

I stumbled upon Pastor Chuck Baldwin's teaching and he makes sense to me. Then I read that they are training CLERGY to urge people to obey the government if martial law was called. If you learn about the plans ahead you'll learn that martial law is indeed planned for America. Your world may seem quite stable and you have a "normalcy bias" - a psychological comfort mechanism whereby you think it will continue on this way.

It' won't.

I urge you to read up on Agenda 21.

What are your views? Do you interpret Romans 13 to mean that we are to obey wicked leaders and never take a stand against tyranny? You may have to make that decision sooner than later because it's coming.

https://newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin773.htm

http://lookintoit.org/Clergy-Response-Teams.html

The world was under martial law in the gospels and acts, we are to render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's and to God that which is God's. Preach the gospel.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

i love you @Roughsoul1991




i'd say that was Paul using his citizenship to not be immediately executed. it was God who used that ((& caused it)) as to bring about Paul testifying before powerful men of the gospel of Christ.




i disagree -- criticizing the head of the government is what got John killed. not trying to become a part of secular government; John in fact didn't even make himself a part of secular society at all. so he wasn't 'involved in government' he just told the truth about it. John wasn't trying to become a governor and he wasn't even trying to have a different governor put in place. Herod was doing something wrong and John simply said, this is a wrong thing. it was not John's testimony -- it was not John's primary vocation to criticize Herod. John was heralding the Messiah; he was out baptizing every day not out digging up dirt on Herod and urging people to support whatever person wanted to replace Herod.




but we don't have this being Esther's will. we have this being the thing Esther's life became, not the thing she tried to turn her life into. Esther 2:8 -- she was taken to the king, because of circumstances that came to being after Vashti did something completely independent of Esther's control. Esther 2:10, Mordecai commanded her not to reveal that she was a Jewess, so she was not voicing her position as the LORD brought her to to her station. Esther 2:12 & 15, she didn't even give her own opinion about what might endear her to the king when she was to be brought before him. none of this was up to her. none of this was according to her effort or desire or will.



this is what i was referring to:

But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more; that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you, that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.​

(1 Thessalonians 4:9-11)​

​

i might agree but: we are not of the world.
so my fellowship, the 'groups' -- the citizenship -- (Greek: πολίτευμα, politeuma, 'citizenship, community, conversation.
From politeuomai; a community, i.e. (abstractly) citizenship (figuratively) -- conversation') -- is not with the world. it is with the body of Christ. ((re: Philippians 3:20))


lol visit the news & conspiracy sections of the forum, ever . . ?




♥

i know. i know you don't -- and i think you also know it's true that not a few do

i'd say that was Paul using his citizenship to not be immediately executed. it was God who used that ((& caused it)) as to bring about Paul testifying before powerful men of the gospel of Christ.

Paul wanted to go Rome and God provided the way. Preaching in Rome would of spread around the known world. Powerful men indeed who were involved in politics.

Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Deborah, King David all we're involved in politics.

but we don't have this being Esther's will

Where does it say she wasn't willing? She used her position in power to save her people. She didn't have to do that but freely put her life on the line to ask the king.

toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more; that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you, that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.

Paul was speaking to the brethren in Macedonia. Was this directed at the general individual, church, or body of Christ?

i might agree but: we are not of the world.

spiritually we are not but physically we still are and physically we must go therefore make disciples, promote truth and justice.

lol visit the news & conspiracy sections of the forum, ever . . ?

conspiracy isn't just within one party. And a conspiracy must be defined as even truth today can be called a conspiracy.

 

[Live4Him]

A friend and I have disparate views and I wondered what others thought. I believe in being proactive and when a bad law would come up I would get involved and email legislators. A friend refused to lift a finger when I would try to get her to stand on the issues. Her view is that the world is supposed to get worse as it says in Scripture.

I stumbled upon Pastor Chuck Baldwin's teaching and he makes sense to me. Then I read that they are training CLERGY to urge people to obey the government if martial law was called. If you learn about the plans ahead you'll learn that martial law is indeed planned for America. Your world may seem quite stable and you have a "normalcy bias" - a psychological comfort mechanism whereby you think it will continue on this way.

It' won't.

I urge you to read up on Agenda 21.

What are your views? Do you interpret Romans 13 to mean that we are to obey wicked leaders and never take a stand against tyranny? You may have to make that decision sooner than later because it's coming.

https://newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin773.htm

http://lookintoit.org/Clergy-Response-Teams.html

Romans chapter 13

[1] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
[2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
[3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
[4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
[5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
[6] For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
[7] Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Paul wasn't speaking about "wicked leaders" here.

Instead, he was speaking about those who "are NOT a terror to good works, but to the evil" or those who "execute wrath upon him that does evil".

In other words, these are GOOD LEADERS, and "wicked leaders" do the polar opposite of what Paul was actually talking about.

 

[Live4Him]

Powerful men indeed who were involved in politics.

Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Deborah, King David all we're involved in politics.

Not to mention DANIEL who was heavily involved in politics in more than one kingdom.

 

[iamsoandso]

Romans chapter 13

[1] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
[2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
[3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
[4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
[5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
[6] For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
[7] Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Paul wasn't speaking about "wicked leaders" here.

Instead, he was speaking about those who "are NOT a terror to good works, but to the evil" or those who "execute wrath upon him that does evil".

In other words, these are GOOD LEADERS, and "wicked leaders" do the polar opposite of what Paul was actually talking about.

Not that I'm arguing with what you said I agree with it. As an observation though Romans is believed to be written sometime around ad55-58 and so Nero would have been the ruler at that time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero Paul says to obey our masters in other Scriptures also. Peter in 1 Peter 2:18 says to obey both the reasonable and unreasonable https://biblehub.com/1_peter/2-18.htm ,,,Anyway though from the point of view of the beast(Rev.13) it doesn't seem as if they(the Apostles) considered Nero to be the beast of Rev.13 because in Romans 13:7 Paul says to render dues/tribute unto him(Nero).

 

[tribesman]

Here's a take on it:

 

[Live4Him]

Not that I'm arguing with what you said I agree with it. As an observation though Romans is believed to be written sometime around ad55-58 and so Nero would have been the ruler at that time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero Paul says to obey our masters in other Scriptures also. Peter in 1 Peter 2:18 says to obey both the reasonable and unreasonable https://biblehub.com/1_peter/2-18.htm ,,,Anyway though from the point of view of the beast(Rev.13) it doesn't seem as if they(the Apostles) considered Nero to be the beast of Rev.13 because in Romans 13:7 Paul says to render dues/tribute unto him(Nero).

Again, Romans 13 says absolutely nothing about obeying "wicked leaders".

As far as "masters" are concerned, those passages deal with slave "masters", so I don't see how they're relevant to the topic of government.

Regarding I Peter, here is what he says about government officials:

I Peter chapter 2

[13] Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
[14] Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

As with Paul in Romans chapter 13, Peter was NOT talking about "wicked leaders", but rather about "them that are sent by him", God, "for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well". Again, "wicked leaders" do the exact opposite.

 

[iamsoandso]

Again, Romans 13 says absolutely nothing about obeying "wicked leaders".

As far as "masters" are concerned, those passages deal with slave "masters", so I don't see how they're relevant to the topic of government.

Regarding I Peter, here is what he says about government officials:

I Peter chapter 2

[13] Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
[14] Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

As with Paul in Romans chapter 13, Peter was NOT talking about "wicked leaders", but rather about "them that are sent by him", God, "for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well". Again, "wicked leaders" do the exact opposite.

I agree. I'm pointing out something else with the same Scriptures. That is that "(if) Nero was the beast of Rev. 13:17 " that we are told to avoid buying and selling with his money https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 13:17-18&version=KJV then Paul would be endorsing Christians to use the money/mark to pay tribute/dues with. He would not if it was the mark at that time.