Should you resist tyranny or obey - Romans 13 interpretation

[posthuman]

Not to mention DANIEL who was heavily involved in politics in more than one kingdom.

Well when I'm born into royalty and/or taken as a slave in a kings palace like he was maybe I'll be more active in the affairs of the court.

Like Esther, this wasn't something Daniel sought. This was the circumstance that was foisted on him.

The fact that Daniel was enslaved in the kings palace is not analogous to a Christian devoting all his time to political commentary or obsessing over affairs of civil government.

 

[Live4Him]

Well when I'm born into royalty and/or taken as a slave in a kings palace like he was maybe I'll be more active in the affairs of the court.

Like Esther, this wasn't something Daniel sought. This was the circumstance that was foisted on him.

The fact that Daniel was enslaved in the kings palace is not analogous to a Christian devoting all his time to political commentary or obsessing over affairs of civil government.

The circumstance foisted on them BY WHO?

By God, as with Joseph and Pharaoh.

Genesis chapter 50

[15] And when Joseph's brethren saw that their father was dead, they said, Joseph will peradventure hate us, and will certainly requite us all the evil which we did unto him.
[16] And they sent a messenger unto Joseph, saying, Thy father did command before he died, saying,
[17] So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.
[18] And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.
[19] And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
[20] But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
[21] Now therefore fear ye not: I will nourish you, and your little ones. And he comforted them, and spake kindly unto them.

God has always been interested in giving godly counsel to those in politics.

For example:

Isaiah chapter 19

[11] Surely the princes of Zoan are fools, the counsel of the wise counsellers of Pharaoh is become brutish: how say ye unto Pharaoh, I am the son of the wise, the son of ancient kings?
[12] Where are they? where are thy wise men? and let them tell thee now, and let them know what the LORD of hosts hath purposed upon Egypt.
[13] The princes of Zoan are become fools, the princes of Noph are deceived; they have also seduced Egypt, even they that are the stay of the tribes thereof.

If you read the prophets, then you can easily recognize that God was constantly warning leaders of other nations through them or refuting the "brutish counsel" of others with godly counsel.

Why would he do so unless he was interested in world politics, especially in relation to people submitting themselves to the rightful reign of Christ?

Anyhow, nobody is forcing you to get involved in politics.

As for me, I'll take a stand, if need be.

 

[posthuman]

I've only started one thread here before, and it had to be okayed by the Mods. My answer to his question is rather long, and it will probably require three posts which I would like to make back to back to back. I'm thinking that I'll only be able to post the first part and then have to wait until the Mods approve the thread (assuming that they approve it) before I can add the other two parts.

All new threads are pendung until a mod OKs them, because we sometimes get troll infestation

While it's pending you can add replies to it yourself, so you could put 3 or 4 posts on your new thread easily by the time it gets added to the forum

Just a general FYI

 

[posthuman]

The circumstance foisted on them BY WHO?

By God, as with Joseph and Pharaoh.

Genesis chapter 50

[15] And when Joseph's brethren saw that their father was dead, they said, Joseph will peradventure hate us, and will certainly requite us all the evil which we did unto him.
[16] And they sent a messenger unto Joseph, saying, Thy father did command before he died, saying,
[17] So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.
[18] And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.
[19] And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
[20] But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
[21] Now therefore fear ye not: I will nourish you, and your little ones. And he comforted them, and spake kindly unto them.

God has always been interested in giving godly counsel to those in politics.

For example:

Isaiah chapter 19

[11] Surely the princes of Zoan are fools, the counsel of the wise counsellers of Pharaoh is become brutish: how say ye unto Pharaoh, I am the son of the wise, the son of ancient kings?
[12] Where are they? where are thy wise men? and let them tell thee now, and let them know what the LORD of hosts hath purposed upon Egypt.
[13] The princes of Zoan are become fools, the princes of Noph are deceived; they have also seduced Egypt, even they that are the stay of the tribes thereof.

If you read the prophets, then you can easily recognize that God was constantly warning leaders of other nations through them or refuting the "brutish counsel" of others with godly counsel.

Why would he do so unless he was interested in world politics, especially in relation to people submitting themselves to the rightful reign of Christ?

Anyhow, nobody is forcing you to get involved in politics.

As for me, I'll take a stand, if need be.

Yes, just as in Esthers case, God brought these things about. It wasn't because they had personal ambitions for government.

I wouldn't deny that God brings some people into government for His purpose or that He even gives some people a talent and desire for it. Of course not.
But what I am trying to say is that it's not an aspect of our faith that the general believer ought to be actively involved in secular politics. It's not part of our calling and it's not part of our faith that we are supposed to take over governments and rule nations and impose our morality on the world.
God certainly does and will use people to carry out His will among the nations, but Jesus never told us to go become senators and devote our time to getting our Caesar-of-choice power and wealth. The epistles don't tell us to spend our days criticizing rulers of our people or to go knocking on doors spreading dissent. It's the gospel we're supposed to be spreading, not a politicians campaign material, and Christ we are supposed to be talking about, not a list of political talking points.

 

[oyster67]

A friend and I have disparate views and I wondered what others thought. I believe in being proactive and when a bad law would come up I would get involved and email legislators. A friend refused to lift a finger when I would try to get her to stand on the issues. Her view is that the world is supposed to get worse as it says in Scripture.

I stumbled upon Pastor Chuck Baldwin's teaching and he makes sense to me. Then I read that they are training CLERGY to urge people to obey the government if martial law was called. If you learn about the plans ahead you'll learn that martial law is indeed planned for America. Your world may seem quite stable and you have a "normalcy bias" - a psychological comfort mechanism whereby you think it will continue on this way.

It' won't.

I urge you to read up on Agenda 21.

What are your views? Do you interpret Romans 13 to mean that we are to obey wicked leaders and never take a stand against tyranny? You may have to make that decision sooner than later because it's coming.

https://newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin773.htm

http://lookintoit.org/Clergy-Response-Teams.html

I understand your frustration about how we seem to be losing freedoms and I understand about how you don't want to be accused of being silent, but remember the example of Jesus...
Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

We also have to see things from the Father's perspective. He wants to take care of matters Himself and does not want us to get in the way...
Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

The old adage "God helps them who helps themselves" is not Biblical. It was coined 250 years ago by a dirty old man who was trying to rationalize his whoremongering lifestyle.

 

[saintrose]

There is a balance. Jesus operated under tyranny. So did His disciples. Most of them killed for standing against the powers of the day. But at the same time rendering to Ceasar what was his.

How would you make the determination though?

 

[saintrose]

Do you realize who was Ceasar when Paul wrote that?

Yes I know who he was.

 

[saintrose]

Yes I don't remember hearing anything about them trying to get elected to the Roman senate or campaigning for policy changes in the republic or getting involved in politics at all, really. And I remember Paul's advice to believers was to aspire to live a quiet life, working with their hands - not even trying to turn everyone into missionaries but to serve God where they were and live humbly, letting their lives be a witness.

So i am a bit of a 'stay out of it' kind of person, I mean, I vote, and I may talk to people a little about politics but it's not what I want to talk about, I think it is a distraction from our faith, and I am extremely suspicious of a certain political party actively trying to make merchandise of Christians and subtly deceive them into becoming their devoted pawns & spread their propaganda. IMHO they have had a lot of success.

I consider all politics worldly, and many Christians hate and slander me for it. But my stance is that my citizenship is in heaven, and a good soldier doesn't get himself entangled in such affairs.

Yes but there does come a time when we are to obey God rather than man. Some people do seem to brag about a kind of piousness that they don't get involved in politics - Chuck Baldwin talks of that. I'm wrestling with whether that's what God really wants. We are to strive to live a quiet life but Christ did turn over the tables of the moneychangers.

I think it's really hard.

But remember something: SILENCE IS INTERPRETED AS ASSENT.

 

[saintrose]

Not to say I would obey any law that tells me I can't talk about Christ or I can't read my Bible or anything like that. I certainly would obey God rather than man in such a case.
But we don't happen to actually have any laws in my country restricting me from doing so. So.

I mean the OP is pushing a 'agenda 21' conspiracy theory. What does that have to do with my Christian walk? Nothing. It's a carefully contrived snare and a rabbit hole to draw people away from Christ. Our job as believers is not to make the world pretend not to be worldly so that we are not offended by it. My job is not to become obsessed with crazy illuminati stuff. What's the end of that road? I hide in a cave with a bunch of canned food and guns? Is that Christianity? Nope.

No one is 'pushing' anything. You'd better read up on Agenda 21. It will affect everyones ability to worship as they see fit. You won't own a cave to hide in either. You won't be allowed to have a family, a car, or your own property and you'll have to ask permission from your masters to have a child. If that's the life you want then by all means stick your head in the sand...

 

[saintrose]

These ladies disobeyed and lied to the government. Note how the Lord was happy with them. So, no, Romans 13 must be used with discernment:

Exodus 1:15-20
New King James Version
15 Then the king of Egypt spoke to the (A)Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of one wasShiphrah and the name of the other Puah; 16 and he said, “When you do the duties of a midwife for the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstools, if it is a (B)son, then you shall kill him; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live.” 17 But the midwives (C)feared God, and did not do (D)as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive. 18 So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, and saved the male children alive?”
19 And (E)the midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they [a]are lively and give birth before the midwives come to them.”
20 (F)Therefore God dealt well with the midwives, and the people multiplied and [b]grew very mighty.

That's a good example!

I'm wondering if we're going to be faced with hard choices soon.

 

[saintrose]

I agree

Countries and Earth itself are all subject to the law of Entropy
Everything, Every perspective, All that this system has to offer is transitory and disposable
However
What we must do is keep from division- and draw close to God in every way so when its time to flee
We are ready,
Currently the number of Christian martyrs is on the increase
The next generation is being taught to hate us
The time of Christian peace is over
We are joining history
Throughout history real Christianity came at a cost
Now its time to count the cost

Flee to where?

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

A friend and I have disparate views and I wondered what others thought. I believe in being proactive and when a bad law would come up I would get involved and email legislators. A friend refused to lift a finger when I would try to get her to stand on the issues. Her view is that the world is supposed to get worse as it says in Scripture.

You are free to exercise your rights as an American. Her view of making an assumptions on the future is error. But she also has freedom to refrain from exercising her rights to redress greievences and vote...

What we should be careful not to do though is to join the church with the government or nationalize christianity. The church is of the spiritual realm and government is of the earthly realm.

 

[saintrose]

I've only started one thread here before, and it had to be okayed by the Mods. My answer to his question is rather long, and it will probably require three posts which I would like to make back to back to back. I'm thinking that I'll only be able to post the first part and then have to wait until the Mods approve the thread (assuming that they approve it) before I can add the other two parts.

You know how things work around here. The dissenters and naysayers will inevitably chime in, and our conversation will more than likely be compromised. Like I said, assuming the Mods even approve it. Seeing how I'm beyond convinced from both scripture and history that the Papacy/the Vatican is the first beast of Revelation chapter 13, are we allowed to post on something like that here? I've been on other "Christian" forums where negative comments about the Papacy/the Vatican weren't allowed. That is why I am asking.

I have read that it's believed the papacy is one of the beasts.

 

[saintrose]

These are important questions. I have lived during the time Hitler asked people to murder others, and they obeyed. Wikipedia lists 24 genocides since 1940.

I was so impressed with the book War and Peace by Tolstoy. The book points out that dictators evolve from the beliefs of the common man in any nation. A study of history confirms this. Scripture confirms this, as we study the destruction of Sodom. God would preserve Sodom if he found a small number of people in the town who accepted Him as their God.

It is true that scripture asks us to accept the government we find ourselves in, but we are also to do the best we can to make that government a Godly one.

It's hard though. I tried for years to get our local dictator...I mean Congressman...to take action and it didn't work. If enough people - such as my friend - had spoken up we could have effected positive changes.

Silence is interpreted as assent.

 

[saintrose]

At the point where they impose upon us that which is antithetical to the command of the Lord, we must follow God not man.
So we will have to decide how is best to serve our neighbors when that time comes. However in the mean while we can return to God's plan for our families by with drawing from babylon. We can stop funding our enemies by paying our debts off as soon as possible. We can sell our suburbans home for which we owe tremendous debt and buy out further where our money we can have a few acres to grow gardens, and have some self sustainability. We can sell the new cars that we owe debt on, and buy cash cars that are less luxury and modern, we can withdraw our children from their indoctrination camps, both public school and colleges. We can bring our children home for education or to Christian schools, and send our youth to Christian colleges for educations. Mom can stay home and raise the kiddos and dad can go work in the public sector to pay the bills. We can learn to farm and garden and repair our own stuff that breaks. We can with draw so that when such mandates are made they hardly affect us. We can alleviate the suffering of our neighbors in such ways. Because we can grow more than we need. We can produce and share. I am now working on my homestead trying to make it into a small farm.
Another thing we can do is stop funding those who hate us. Don't use target, or coke a cola or starbucks, those are just examples. Get out of debt as soon as possible, so we don't pay interest to corporations that support politics that are anti Christian.
Turn off sports, cable tv, and such. Kick facebook and twitter, and all those social media outlets that promote anti Christian values and use you as a means to profit.
We don't have to create communes and with draw completely, but reduce; step by step just don't need them any more. Become a community independent of govco and it's cronies. That is what the Christians of ancient times did.

Great ideas!!!

 

[saintrose]

The circumstance foisted on them BY WHO?

By God, as with Joseph and Pharaoh.

Genesis chapter 50

[15] And when Joseph's brethren saw that their father was dead, they said, Joseph will peradventure hate us, and will certainly requite us all the evil which we did unto him.
[16] And they sent a messenger unto Joseph, saying, Thy father did command before he died, saying,
[17] So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.
[18] And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.
[19] And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
[20] But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
[21] Now therefore fear ye not: I will nourish you, and your little ones. And he comforted them, and spake kindly unto them.

God has always been interested in giving godly counsel to those in politics.

For example:

Isaiah chapter 19

[11] Surely the princes of Zoan are fools, the counsel of the wise counsellers of Pharaoh is become brutish: how say ye unto Pharaoh, I am the son of the wise, the son of ancient kings?
[12] Where are they? where are thy wise men? and let them tell thee now, and let them know what the LORD of hosts hath purposed upon Egypt.
[13] The princes of Zoan are become fools, the princes of Noph are deceived; they have also seduced Egypt, even they that are the stay of the tribes thereof.

If you read the prophets, then you can easily recognize that God was constantly warning leaders of other nations through them or refuting the "brutish counsel" of others with godly counsel.

Why would he do so unless he was interested in world politics, especially in relation to people submitting themselves to the rightful reign of Christ?

Anyhow, nobody is forcing you to get involved in politics.

As for me, I'll take a stand, if need be.

You've raised some good points. I tend to think that we're supposed to be involved at least somewhat. A guy who had been imprisoned during Nazi Germany said if you think all is necessary to sit back and vote you're mistaken.

I read today that God's judgment is going to fall on America. I wonder if part of that judgement is for our laxity in watching over the affairs which affect us.

 

[Aidan1]

A friend and I have disparate views and I wondered what others thought. I believe in being proactive and when a bad law would come up I would get involved and email legislators. A friend refused to lift a finger when I would try to get her to stand on the issues. Her view is that the world is supposed to get worse as it says in Scripture.

I stumbled upon Pastor Chuck Baldwin's teaching and he makes sense to me. Then I read that they are training CLERGY to urge people to obey the government if martial law was called. If you learn about the plans ahead you'll learn that martial law is indeed planned for America. Your world may seem quite stable and you have a "normalcy bias" - a psychological comfort mechanism whereby you think it will continue on this way.

It' won't.

I urge you to read up on Agenda 21.

What are your views? Do you interpret Romans 13 to mean that we are to obey wicked leaders and never take a stand against tyranny? You may have to make that decision sooner than later because it's coming.

https://newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin773.htm

http://lookintoit.org/Clergy-Response-Teams.html

Who ruled in Rom while Paul wrote his Letter to the Roman believers?

 

[posthuman]

I'm wrestling with whether that's what God really wants. We are to strive to live a quiet life but Christ did turn over the tables of the moneychangers.

but that had to do with the house of God, not of Parliament. Christ didn't speak against Caesar; He spoke against the Pharisees and teachers of the Torah.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

I have read that it's believed the papacy is one of the beasts.

I have seen it for myself in revelation that the papacy was the 2nd beast of revelation when it worked in tandem with the imperial state. Church (2nd beast) and Imperial State (1st beast) worked together and served each other. But the Imperial State is gone now and the 2nd beast operates by itself and thus cannot serve as beast without the 1st beast. So it is now the False Prophet. The era of the 1st beast and 2nd beast was about 1260 years. This era is gone now and We are now in the era of Whore of Babylon where the beast (1st beast that is) once was, now is not, and is yet to come.

This is what I have seen on my own.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

How would you make the determination though?

It is largely an act of the Holy Spirit. Look at what the many martyrs of the Christian faith chose to stand for. Then look at the atmosphere of the time. Or look at any historical Christian like Martin Luther who was almost killed for his faith. Sometimes the atmosphere that God has set in place had Christians in bondage or forced to operate in tyranny while other atmospheres allowed Christians to defeat evil through events like the Revolution, Civil War, WW1, or WW2. God allowed these circumstances. So it is really all related to what God is doing. Who is God judging or bringing judgment on? God used Israel to bring Judgement or used foreign armies to bring judgment on them. A few times we had great awakenings that kept the peace at least for a while.