Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??

[Nehemiah6]

In many aspects I think Germany is one of the most liberal places in Europe

It was in German seminaries and by German theologians that the attacks on the Bible and Bible doctrine first began in the 18th and 19th centuries. There was a whole string of German critics (who were in fact unbelievers) involved with both Higher and Lower criticism. Then this liberalism spread into other parts of Europe and England, and eventually into almost all American seminaries.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Pentecost was the beginning of the worlwide church. Body of Christ. This was not before Pentecost.
So in this sense Abraham is not a member of the NT church.
And the theme of this thread is not faith.

We have been given a free gift. Not the right to exclude those who came before us.
The Spirit of Elijah and Elisha is the same spirit living in me now.


Hebrews 11
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised,
40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

John 10
16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice,
and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[mustaphadrink]

Women were included in the group that was to wait for the empowered to fulfill the great commission in the gifts of Teaching all nations. Women were specifically pointed out by Peter as being empowered with the SPEAKING gifts of prophecy. The Holy Spirit made sure that Peter pointed out the women. Therefore it is impossible to exclude women from obeying the call to fulfill the Great Commission with the power of the Holy Spirit in speaking gifts, whether it tongues, prophesy, words of knowledge, worlds of wisdom, and all forms of teaching and preaching. And they will do so and they have done so and they will do so until Jesus comes again.

Luke 24
47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48And ye are witnesses of these things. 49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Acts 1
12Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. 13And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room,

14These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus,

Acts 2
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth

And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

God made his will known on the day of Pentecost. Paul never contradicted this.

None of these verses address women as pastors/teachers.

 

[mustaphadrink]

Ladies wot wear hats in church

Forecast for tomorrow: God reigns and the Son shines. You would make a great weather forecaster.

 

[Evmur]

Your claim is (False), Paul wrote specifically to the female gender (Women) and their role in the church below.

Gods Words Are Very Clear On A Womans Role In The Church, And They Aren't Changing Anytime Soon.

Silence, Subjection, Obedience

(It Is A Shame For Women To Speak In The Church)

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

It has always been considered by the church to be bad policy to build a doctrine upon one scripture especially when it seems to be at odds with other scriptures.

..... I wish some men would keep silence in church.

 

[Evmur]

Nympha lead a church in her house and so did Pricilla, and so did others. You are wrong and will need to modify your statement and come up with another reason why you don't want women to preach in your church.

And Paul commanded the brethren to give them all assistance.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

It has always been considered by the church to be bad policy to build a doctrine upon one scripture especially when it seems to be at odds with other scriptures.

..... I wish some men would keep silence in church.

Thank you for being reasonable.

There seems to be a fair amount of fear involved with some chaps. Fear of women usurping authority and spoiling the congregation.

I wish some of these men who want to enforce this legalism would realise that this isn't a matter of women replacing men.

The idea of 'usurping authority' in my mind would entail a woman literally stealing an established leadership or teaching position from a man. That is why it sounds offensive to me when they use that language. Perish the thought!
If I felt I had a teaching to offer, I would expect to be held to the same standards as any man would be.

A number of years ago, I was trying out a new church. After I joined them a few times for Sunday service I was comfortable with them & I began to assist some of the musicians with their set up because it's what I do. One of the worship leaders (a man) began to discuss their mixing desk and PA system with me because I had some professional experience in that area.
He said to me "you know I think The Lord may have sent you."

It wasn't a matter of me barging in & pushing a man out of his position in the church.
It was that they needed someone to do a specific thing and there was no one else suitable except a woman.
I was more than happy to help. I wouldn't have dared to turn up at the church demanding to replace the Pastor's son
with me in the music ministry. It just happened that there was a need to fill. I have also helped with cleaning in the church.

Some of the posters here who work in ministry regularly have tried to express that fact, there is need.
Many groups, especially in bigger towns & cities don't have the luxury of turning people away based on gender.

 

[Aidan1]

What took place with the occasional individual in the Old Testament was a reflection of what was to come, but with the masses instead of only a small Vine. The Day of Pentecost represents the Day of Explosion, where the Body of Christ would Truly begin to multiply.

The Faith is the exact same in the OT as it is in the NT. Jesus can Circumcise a person's Heart in the OT. Jesus can send the Gift of the Holy Spirit to a person in the OT. Jesus can grant a person the ability to Repent (in the OT). Jesus can separate anyone from any Curse or worldly law at any time. Exodus 33:19. God can shed His Grace, Mercy, and Compassion upon anyone He so chooses.

I realize that what I am saying is foreign . . . but it is worth at least considering.

The day of Pentecost is not the day of Explosion, its the day of birth of the church.
The people of the OT are saved not because they believed in Jesus, because they did not know Him. They trustet God. So there you cant find a Christian in the OT.
So it is wrong to say that the OT believers had the Holy Spirit like we have Him today.

 

[Aidan1]

You are wrong! There is no "man" or "he" in this passage. There is "husband." Paul left it neutral except for the admonition to husbands not to have more than one wife. I read Greek well. Get yourself an interlinear. The KJV committee translated this according to their own viewpoints, and were not truthful, adding those masculine nouns and pronouns.

So sad people don't trust the original versions, instead of all these mistranslated versions. It leads to false doctrines!

Angela, is husband standing for a he ore a she?

 

[Chef]

He has a split personality, bipolar?

You don't like answerin simple yes or no questions. Why is that? Are you sayin the apostle Paul was a crazy man? It's a yes or no question.

The Chef would like to correct you on one thing. Bipolar polar is a mood disorder. Since you never met Paul and since you ain't no psychiatric professional there ain't no way for you to determine if the Apostle Paul was suffering from Bipolar mania.

Paul was a servant of God Almighty and there ain't no way the Good Lord would choose a crazy to compose 1/2 the New Testament.

 

[cv5]

She is pointed out first because she was the Gifted Teacher and this has been established by many, many scholars throughout church history, even F.F. Bruce and many others. It is not even questioned by serious scholars.

It is also not a question that Nympha was a woman. KJV was wrong. Read up on the discussion. There is not a single serious Greek Scholar and textual manuscript expert anywhere that believes KJV was correct in calling her a male.

That is almost every single English translation but the KJV says her.

Now here is where the intellectual dishonesty occurs. When those scholars who do not believe a woman should pastor concede that Nympha is a woman then they start to give reasons why she was not the pastor (with no evidence) just because she had a church in her house. But if it is a male that is mentioned with a church in his house they will say he was the pastor without any evidence.

She was a woman and she was most likely the spiritual leader of that church in her house as well. And she is not the only one. Read Paynes examples.

Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Moo on 1 Timothy 2 vv 11-15.pdf

Philip B. Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Philip Payne Libertarian Women.PDF

"Greet the brothers in Laodicea, and also Nympha and the church in her house."

I think we better get a grip on reality and understand that there is nothing in the text indicating that Nympha was a female pastor leading that ekklesia. It is only stated that the assembly was being held in that particular house. As Paul is commending her, clearly she is hosting an assembly not leading it.

It is absurd to assume that every female that Paul names in his greetings and farewells is a female pastor. Not once anywhere in Scripture is Paul addressing or commending a woman pastor.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

The day of Pentecost is not the day of Explosion, its the day of birth of the church.
The people of the OT are saved not because they believed in Jesus, because they did not know Him. They trustet God. So there you cant find a Christian in the OT.
So it is wrong to say that the OT believers had the Holy Spirit like we have Him today.

Okie Doke.

 

[cv5]

She is pointed out first because she was the Gifted Teacher and this has been established by many, many scholars throughout church history, even F.F. Bruce and many others. It is not even questioned by serious scholars.

It is also not a question that Nympha was a woman. KJV was wrong. Read up on the discussion. There is not a single serious Greek Scholar and textual manuscript expert anywhere that believes KJV was correct in calling her a male.

That is almost every single English translation but the KJV says her.

Now here is where the intellectual dishonesty occurs. When those scholars who do not believe a woman should pastor concede that Nympha is a woman then they start to give reasons why she was not the pastor (with no evidence) just because she had a church in her house. But if it is a male that is mentioned with a church in his house they will say he was the pastor without any evidence.

She was a woman and she was most likely the spiritual leader of that church in her house as well. And she is not the only one. Read Paynes examples.

Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Moo on 1 Timothy 2 vv 11-15.pdf

Philip B. Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Philip Payne Libertarian Women.PDF

He/she is mentioned once only in one line of text. To start eulogizing this person as a "gifted teacher" is propelling the text in the orbit of the utterly absurd.

I say again there is no documentary evidence to indicate female pastors for well over 2000 years of Church history, including the Bible.

 

[Chef]

The day of Pentecost is not the day of Explosion, its the day of birth of the church.
The people of the OT are saved not because they believed in Jesus, because they did not know Him. They trustet God. So there you cant find a Christian in the OT.
So it is wrong to say that the OT believers had the Holy Spirit like we have Him today.

Jesus is God and like God Jesus always was and always will be. So it would follow that all fine folks had Christ and the Holy Spirit. The Christ was not ever dormant. There are tales long before the Lord Jesus come out of Mary's womb to be our Lord and savior.

We see the pictures of Jesus and folks be complainin that he look like a White man and not some Middle Eastern Jew. The depiction of Jesus what we see in European art is Christus Serapis a Christ that predate Jesus of Nazareth. Like Jesus, Serapis was born of a virgin, was crucified and arose for the dead.

There are many sculptures of Serapis Christus walkin around with a flower pot his head. And there were many Christs who came before Serapis. cc

If we were to take the notion of John Calvin and predestination we would know that we were chosen to salvation even before the world was made. Since God is all knowin, and he wouldn't be God if he wasn't, then we were saved or condemned before the beginnin of time and there's nothin we can do about it. This is supported by the holy scripture.

God determines from the beginning who is going to heaven.

God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13

And who is going to hell for all eternity.

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation. Jude 4

 

[Aidan1]

We have been given a free gift. Not the right to exclude those who came before us.
The Spirit of Elijah and Elisha is the same spirit living in me now.


Hebrews 11
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised,
40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

John 10
16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice,
and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Yes, we got a free gift, but this means not that the conditions from the OT and NT believer are the same. Would you ask Abraham ore Moses to put there faith in Jesus Christ, they must say : we dont know him.

Of course at the end the OT believer is in eternity like the NT believer. But to say that the OT believer had the Holy Spirit as the NT believer has ir, is not correct.

 

[Dino246]

He has a split personality, bipolar?

"Split personality" is an archaic term, and is not used except in bad TV scripts. The correct term is "multiple personality disorder" and is usually caused by horrific trauma in childhood. "Bipolar disorder" is completely different, and is characterized by alternating phases of depression and mania.

Instead of repeating yourself ad nauseam, how about you do some homework before posting.

 

[Magenta]

Would you ask Abraham ore Moses to put there faith in Jesus Christ, they must say : we dont know him.

"Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see My day. He saw it and was glad.” John 8:56

 

[Aidan1]

Jesus is God and like God Jesus always was and always will be. So it would follow that all fine folks had Christ and the Holy Spirit. The Christ was not ever dormant. There are tales long before the Lord Jesus come out of Mary's womb to be our Lord and savior.

We see the pictures of Jesus and folks be complainin that he look like a White man and not some Middle Eastern Jew. The depiction of Jesus what we see in European art is Christus Serapis a Christ that predate Jesus of Nazareth. Like Jesus, Serapis was born of a virgin, was crucified and arose for the dead.

There are many sculptures of Serapis Christus walkin around with a flower pot his head. And there were many Christs who came before Serapis. cc

If we were to take the notion of John Calvin and predestination we would know that we were chosen to salvation even before the world was made. Since God is all knowin, and he wouldn't be God if he wasn't, then we were saved or condemned before the beginnin of time and there's nothin we can do about it. This is supported by the holy scripture.

God determines from the beginning who is going to heaven.

God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13

And who is going to hell for all eternity.

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation. Jude 4

Come on you are not realy believe that Serapis has anything to do with our Lord Jesus.

 

[Major]

You are wrong! There is no "man" or "he" in this passage. There is "husband." Paul left it neutral except for the admonition to husbands not to have more than one wife. I read Greek well. Get yourself an interlinear. The KJV committee translated this according to their own viewpoints, and were not truthful, adding those masculine nouns and pronouns.

So sad people don't trust the original versions, instead of all these mistranslated versions. It leads to false doctrines!

Thanks for the post.

May I say to you with all due respect, I am very pleased that You know the Greek.

Since you do then you know that the Greek used in verse #1 in the KJV for "MAN"....is the word ...".τις "which = "some" and is an indeferent pronoun.

`Then.....in the same verse, the next word id "HE" which in the Greek is the word..."ορεγεται".
As used in verse #1 it is the 3rd person single form of the verb and as an "ANTICEDANT" it points to the subject of verse #1 which goes back to the "MAN". Its tense is present (which indicates that the action is in the now).

Verse #2 then in the Greek Linear says.....
"δεω tov επισκοπον ειμι εις γυναικος ανδρα σωφρονα κοσμιο φιλοξενο διδακτικον
(gender is Masculine)

Literally then in English it says......
"it must be therefore the unimpeachable (gender is masculine.) to be of one of woman, man, having sound verbal discipline, world-orderly, stranger-loving, having the didactive knack".

Or as read and translated in the Kings English.........
"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach'

 

[Major]

He isnt in, but if then he would

Where then is his body???