50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Runningman]

Good point.
it’s not simply a disagreement over timing, but the introduction of a falsehood about a second prior event.

Instead of encouraging the body to look forward, focussed on the visible return of our King in vindication & glory, pretrib is a
self-centred doctrine seeking escape & distracting the church from it's function during the tribulation period.

Well said.

And pre-trib is the exact opposite of what Jesus told us which is how to ensure hardships, persecution, and to wait for his return that occurs "immediately after the tribulation of those days."

 

[Absolutely]

Jesus said His coming will be like the flood in the days of Noah in Matthew 24. The Rider on the White Horse is a description of Jesus coming on the clouds with His angels. He'll gather His elect and kill the wicked.

You should also try to suspend the assumption that Revelation is entirely sequential. It teaches the same concept using different terminology sometimes. This is partly why Revelation is a difficult book to understand. Just when you think you got it there's a plot twist.

Numerous things happen simultaneously at the return of Christ after the Great tribulation: the rapture, the resurrection of the dead, the harvest of the earth, defeat of the anti-Christ and false prophet, binding of Satan, the Earth destroyed, New Heavens and Earth.

Suspend the assumption that Jesus keeps leaving and coming back. If the Bible says just returns after the Tribulation then you need to recognize that that is when the rapture happens.

then Rev 14 harvest DURING THE GT is a real problem to you.
( psst ...you got the living PRECEDEING the dead)
...since all that you just said is cast in stone.

I will continue to let the word of God say what it says.

It is one of many components that you can not reconcile.

You gloss over it.

Rev 14 is the second coming on horses correct?

 

[Absolutely]

Good point.
it’s not simply a disagreement over timing, but the introduction of a falsehood about a second prior event.

Instead of encouraging the body to look forward, focussed on the visible return of our King in vindication & glory, pretrib is a
self-centred doctrine seeking escape & distracting the church from it's function during the tribulation period.

rev 14 with Jesus sitting on a cloud is the second coming at the end of the gt..correct?

 

[Absolutely]

Well said.

And pre-trib is the exact opposite of what Jesus told us which is how to ensure hardships, persecution, and to wait for his return that occurs "immediately after the tribulation of those days."

So jesus sitting on a cloud during the gt with thousands of Jews preceeding that coming is also Jesus coming on horses with millions of saints blackening the sky??? is the exact same thing???

Help me put those 2 together.

No deflecting. Make those into one.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There is only scriptural support for a singular return of Christ.

Pre-tribbers [such as myself (...I'm not sure about Abs' view)] also believe Jesus will only "RETURN" ONCE. [Acts 3:21]

When He will "RETURN," it is to the earth.

[Lk12:36 etc]


I forget (my apologies), do you believe that when Jesus will "RETURN," that He will be coming to the earth?

 

[Absolutely]

i need help.

can any postrib rapturist help me see mat 25. 10 virgin parable as jesus coming in power to kill as a warrior the exact same thing as the virgins harvest?

 

[Absolutely]

Well said.

And pre-trib is the exact opposite of what Jesus told us which is how to ensure hardships, persecution, and to wait for his return that occurs "immediately after the tribulation of those days."

Uh no
We both believe that very thing.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[Acts 3:21]

"whom heaven must receive UNTIL the timeS of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of all the holy prophets from the age." Act 3:21

 

[Absolutely]

"""Suspend the assumption that Jesus keeps leaving and coming back"""

Reconcile the verses that he does just that.

You say....so it is?

Just once give it try.
Reconcile the verses.

 

[Absolutely]

"""Suspend the assumption that Jesus keeps leaving and coming back"""

Reconcile the verses that he does just that.

You say....so it is?

Just once give it try.
Reconcile the verses.

Ain't ever gonna happen

Never

They will always deflect.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Acts 15 -

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world [/that have been known for ages].



--what is this "After this" ?? After what?

 

[Runningman]

So jesus sitting on a cloud during the gt with thousands of Jews preceeding that coming is also Jesus coming on horses with millions of saints blackening the sky??? is the exact same thing???

Help me put those 2 together.

No deflecting. Make those into one.

You're thinking there are two separate comings because the rider on the white horse is described with vastly different imagery than Jesus on a cloud with a sickle. It's figurative language to describe what's occuring.

Will Jesus actually be sitting on a cloud in midair swinging a sickle? Maybe. But the point is that the Earth (wheat and tares) will be harvested.

Will Jesus be on a literal horse riding through the sky? Maybe. But the point is He's taking vengeance on the wicked.

These verses say He comes for the wicked and those who believe.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[Absolutely]

The " one coming"
That is what got em

Like it is said...all false doctrine has a companion " the impossibility."

Postrib rapture theory has many harvested BEFORE the dead in christ.

Saying it another way, the dead in christ at the erroneous post trib rapture THEORY, FOLLOW the harvest of the living....DURING THE GT!!!

I THINK either 1 thes 4 has to go 0r rev 14.
Hey its only one page.

Oh but mat 25 needs to go also.

Oh wait..acts 1 will need to go.

Or maybe rev 19 can go and we can pretend noah and lot get delivered post flood/ judgement.??

There is a way to make a postrib rapture fit!!!

 

[Runningman]

The " one coming"
That is what got em

Like it is said...all false doctrine has a companion " the impossibility."

Postrib rapture theory has many harvested BEFORE the dead in christ.

Saying it another way, the dead in christ at the erroneous post trib rapture THEORY, FOLLOW the harvest of the living....DURING THE GT!!!

I THINK either 1 thes 4 has to go 0r rev 14.
Hey its only one page.

Oh but mat 25 needs to go also.

Oh wait..acts 1 will need to go.

Or maybe rev 19 can go and we can pretend noah and lot get delivered post flood/ judgement.??

There is a way to make a postrib rapture fit!!!

Everything is heresy unless you understand it or agree with it. Got it.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

You're thinking there are two separate comings because the rider on the white horse is described with vastly different imagery than Jesus on a cloud with a sickle. It's figurative language to describe what's occuring.

Will Jesus actually be sitting on a cloud in midair swinging a sickle? Maybe. But the point is that the Earth (wheat and tares) will be harvested.

Will Jesus be on a literal horse riding through the sky? Maybe. But the point is He's taking vengeance on the wicked.

These verses say He comes for the wicked and those who believe.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Psalm 68

1 God arises. His enemies scatter,
and those who hate him flee from his presence.
2 As smoke is blown away,
so you blow them away.
As wax melts before the fire,
so the wicked are destroyed before God.
3 But the righteous are glad;
they rejoice before God and celebrate with joy.
4 Sing to God! Sing praises to his name.
Exalt him who rides on the clouds—
his name is the Lord—and celebrate before him.

 

[Runningman]

Pre-tribbers [such as myself (...I'm not sure about Abs' view)] also believe Jesus will only "RETURN" ONCE. [Acts 3:21]

When He will "RETURN," it is to the earth.

[Lk12:36 etc]


I forget (my apologies), do you believe that when Jesus will "RETURN," that He will be coming to the earth?

At one point I thought that, but Revelation 14:1-5 is what I was looking to come to that conclusion.

However, after more study, I think that portion of the scripture is a vision about the New Heaven and New Earth. There's a cross reference to in Hebrews 12:22-23

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

But the point is that the Earth (wheat and tares) will be harvested.

However, "the Church which is His body" [that's us] is neither the "wheat" nor the "tares".

 

[Runningman]

However, "the Church which is His body" [that's us] is neither the "wheat" nor the "tares".

Wheat is the church - children of the kingdom.

Tares are unbelievers - children of the devil

Matthew 13:38
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

 

[Runningman]

Psalm 68

1 God arises. His enemies scatter,
and those who hate him flee from his presence.
2 As smoke is blown away,
so you blow them away.
As wax melts before the fire,
so the wicked are destroyed before God.
3 But the righteous are glad;
they rejoice before God and celebrate with joy.
4 Sing to God! Sing praises to his name.
Exalt him who rides on the clouds—
his name is the Lord—and celebrate before him.

Wow one of my new favorite Psalms.

I wasn't aware of how many parallels this contains to end times eschatology

 

[cv5]

Pre-tribbers [such as myself (...I'm not sure about Abs' view)] also believe Jesus will only "RETURN" ONCE. [Acts 3:21]

When He will "RETURN," it is to the earth.

[Lk12:36 etc]


I forget (my apologies), do you believe that when Jesus will "RETURN," that He will be coming to the earth?

Totally agree. There is no pre-trib rapture verse that indicates that He will set His feet upon the earth. We are transformed and meet him in the AIR. The scripture is clear as a bell.