What do you say to those trying to justify sin by making the blanket statement that men had to have changed the bible over time?-)

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Jun 18, 2020
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#41
2 Timothy 3:15-17
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Okay??? but what is the "that" when you wrote:

"The Bible is authoritative on that subject so it isn't a claim."
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#42
Okay??? but what is the "that" when you wrote:

"The Bible is authoritative on that subject so it isn't a claim."
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God..."

Meaning that since God is sovereign over creation, He gets to decide what the objective truths are. The Bible is the inspired word of God so it's objective truth.
 
Jun 18, 2020
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#43
Thing is though, there was no Bible at Pentecost. Yes, Peter quoted scripture at his address but they all knew when the Holy Spirit had arrived.
Isn't this our testimony? Those who ask, I point to an exact moment in time when I asked and received the Holy Spirit, it was a significant moment and without it, I'd still be the same person I was.
"Thing is though, there was no Bible at Pentecost. Yes, Peter quoted scripture at his address but they all knew when the Holy Spirit had arrived." There most certainly was scripture being used to verify the claims of many, even Paul was not exempt. (Acts 17:11)

"Isn't this our testimony? Those who ask, I point to an exact moment in time when I asked and received the Holy Spirit, it was a significant moment and without it, I'd still be the same person I was." Testimony is only worth the trust someone puts into the person making it. It is subject to the bias of the speaker and listener. Regardless of if the testimony comes from a Mormon, JV, Muslim, Hindu or any person you may consider Christian, it is still their testimony not the Word of God and should never be elevated beyond simple opinion. You may think your testimony holds more weight then the Mormon down the street but they are both but opinions.
 
Jun 18, 2020
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#44
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God..."

Meaning that since God is sovereign over creation, He gets to decide what the objective truths are. The Bible is the inspired word of God so it's objective truth.
I agree but the question is simply this:

What noun is the pronoun "that" replacing?
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#45
I agree but the question is simply this:

What noun is the pronoun "that" replacing?
Oh, I think I understand what you're asking now. I'll bold what I was referring to when I said "that."

Post #34
"Without the Bible to compare, claims based on the "indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit" have little meaning outside the mind of the claimant."
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#46
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God..."

Meaning that since God is sovereign over creation, He gets to decide what the objective truths are. The Bible is the inspired word of God so it's objective truth.
If the bible is truth, then Easter is not truth, for that word was man's interpretation of the Hebrew word for Passover. I think we need to carefully look at our interpretations of scripture for any time man has added his own thoughts to scripture.

I am alarmed by the many posts trying to find God's way with the Sabbath. One tells us every day is the same, one that the Sabbath was the day Christ rose, another that the Sabbath is the day God created the Sabbath, the seventh day of creation. There were many unchristian posts that Christ told us was not right when we were told how the Lord sees murder. There was little blessing the Lord for giving us a day of rest, saying God didn't mean that, God only meant to rest in Him.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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#47
What do you say to those trying to justify sin by making the blanket statement that men had to have changed the bible over time?-)


Sin, at it's root, is simply rebellion against God and His way. It boils down to...

Matthew
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

A man who loves God will not be seeking for excuses to sin in the first place. The Spirit within will have made Him a New Creature with a desire to be holy and be humble when he stumbles. Seeking excuses and rationalizations for sins is an evident token of perdition. When a man fully surrenders to Christ, a changed life WILL follow.

Someone needs to get their heart right with God.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#48
If the bible is truth, then Easter is not truth, for that word was man's interpretation of the Hebrew word for Passover. I think we need to carefully look at our interpretations of scripture for any time man has added his own thoughts to scripture.

I am alarmed by the many posts trying to find God's way with the Sabbath. One tells us every day is the same, one that the Sabbath was the day Christ rose, another that the Sabbath is the day God created the Sabbath, the seventh day of creation. There were many unchristian posts that Christ told us was not right when we were told how the Lord sees murder. There was little blessing the Lord for giving us a day of rest, saying God didn't mean that, God only meant to rest in Him.
As far as the Sabbath goes for Christians, I would check out what Colossians 2 and what Hebrews 4 says.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#49
As far as the Sabbath goes for Christians, I would check out what Colossians 2 and what Hebrews 4 says.
As far as the Sabbath goes, there are scriptures that is used for every one of the many ways different people think the Lord means it for us.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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#50
The Pharisees changed scripture, giving their interpretation of scripture as scripture. Today's church has changed scripture: One person saying God cancelled the law and another saying God did not cancel His law. One speaks for saved persons to have a will not to sin, another saying that all work is not for the Lord, but work is only trying to be justified by that work. All these people say they are led by the Holy Spirit, yet we know the Holy Spirit never disagrees with God, and Christians are disagreeing for both sides can't be truth.
This is because people take random verses out of context and form their doctrines from them. It is important to read the whole Bible to get a full understanding of what God is saying about His plans and purposes for mankind.

As far as our attitude to God's Law and how it may apply to us, then reading the whole book of Romans instead of plucking random verses out of it will go a long way to understanding where the Law fits into our Christian lives today.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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#51
What do you say to those trying to justify sin by making the blanket statement that men had to have changed the bible over time?-)


Sin, at it's root, is simply rebellion against God and His way. It boils down to...

Matthew
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

A man who loves God will not be seeking for excuses to sin in the first place. The Spirit within will have made Him a New Creature with a desire to be holy and be humble when he stumbles. Seeking excuses and rationalizations for sins is an evident token of perdition. When a man fully surrenders to Christ, a changed life WILL follow.

Someone needs to get their heart right with God.
John in his first letter clearly says that sin is always with us, and the person who denies that they have sin deceives himself and the truth is not in him. We have people who have said that they have totally overcome sin in their lives and no longer sin. They are deceived, because in this life we will never overcome sin. It remains there as an albatross around our necks. We know that the guilt and punishment for sin has been removed from us through the finished work of Christ on the Cross, but we still need further forgiveness for the sins we go on committing in spite of our best efforts to avoid them. This is why John wrote, "If we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ." He also said that if we do sin and confess it, God is faithful and just to forgive our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. There is a two-fold function here. (1) forgiveness; and (2) ongoing cleansing and development in righteous living.

We will always have a battle between the flesh and the Spirit until the day we die. When we do have our failures, which are our sins, we can come boldly to the throne of grace to find mercy. Running to Christ when we have failed ensures forgiveness and restoration of fellowship with God, and that's what we do when we come boldly to the throne of grace. When we do come to the throne of grace, we will not be turned away, because the Scripture says, "He to comes to Me, I will in no wise cast out."

So we need not be afraid of our failures, because we have Christ as our defence lawyer in heaven. But at the same time, knowing these things is not an excuse to choose to sin, but we all know that temptation from the flesh can be very strong and overpowering at times because of our weakness, but when we are weak, then He is strong in us, and when we do fail as we will surely do many times, we can depend on 1 John 1:9 to keep us in fellowship with God.
 

Lookupnotback

Active member
Sep 26, 2020
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#52
John in his first letter clearly says that sin is always with us, and the person who denies that they have sin deceives himself and the truth is not in him. We have people who have said that they have totally overcome sin in their lives and no longer sin. They are deceived, because in this life we will never overcome sin. It remains there as an albatross around our necks. We know that the guilt and punishment for sin has been removed from us through the finished work of Christ on the Cross, but we still need further forgiveness for the sins we go on committing in spite of our best efforts to avoid them. This is why John wrote, "If we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ." He also said that if we do sin and confess it, God is faithful and just to forgive our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. There is a two-fold function here. (1) forgiveness; and (2) ongoing cleansing and development in righteous living.

We will always have a battle between the flesh and the Spirit until the day we die. When we do have our failures, which are our sins, we can come boldly to the throne of grace to find mercy. Running to Christ when we have failed ensures forgiveness and restoration of fellowship with God, and that's what we do when we come boldly to the throne of grace. When we do come to the throne of grace, we will not be turned away, because the Scripture says, "He to comes to Me, I will in no wise cast out."

So we need not be afraid of our failures, because we have Christ as our defence lawyer in heaven. But at the same time, knowing these things is not an excuse to choose to sin, but we all know that temptation from the flesh can be very strong and overpowering at times because of our weakness, but when we are weak, then He is strong in us, and when we do fail as we will surely do many times, we can depend on 1 John 1:9 to keep us in fellowship with God.
Preach it brother! Preach it!-)
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#53
This is because people take random verses out of context and form their doctrines from them. It is important to read the whole Bible to get a full understanding of what God is saying about His plans and purposes for mankind.

As far as our attitude to God's Law and how it may apply to us, then reading the whole book of Romans instead of plucking random verses out of it will go a long way to understanding where the Law fits into our Christian lives today.
You are so right!

Every verse of scripture is from the one true God, and God does not disagreed with God. Any time we feel that some scriptures disagree, we are to read all scripture pertaining to a subject and look for the agreements in those scriptures. The agreement is there.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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#55
The same as what the New Testament Church believed which did not have the New Testament.
They had the Old Testament. The risen Jesus took the Apostles for a guided tour through Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms to show Himself in them. That was the basis of their teaching to the early church.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#56
They had the Old Testament. The risen Jesus took the Apostles for a guided tour through Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms to show Himself in them. That was the basis of their teaching to the early church.
Scripture tells us God is eternal, God does not change, and that both the new testament and the old testament are breathed by the one true God.

I spent two years of intense study of the Torah (first five books of scripture) using a commentary that related the new testament with the old testament, showing they told of the relationship of the two. It showed that Christ fulfilled all the old testament, Christ did not change it.

The gospels tell us that Christ said this is so.

I found that the old testament gave details and explanations of Christ not told to us in the new testament, such as showing the different sins that we are to ask forgiveness for. A study of the camp that Moses created in the wilderness tells a lot about the kingdom of God. A study of the temple tells a lot about how we became the temple after Christ was crucified.
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#57
The same as what the New Testament Church believed which did not have the New Testament.
2000 years later, Christians can't even agree on what was written and preserved for us. I can only imagine how far off base we would be with out it.
The reason God had his word preserved for us, was so we would have an authorative teaching to keep us knowing his will.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#58
I'd recommend books like Searching for The Original Bible by Randall Price, both for the other person and for yourself. The Bible hasn't changed that much; yes, it has changed, but not enough to effect and critical doctrines.

A person who says such a thing is ignorant and needs educated.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#59
2000 years later, Christians can't even agree on what was written and preserved for us. I can only imagine how far off base we would be with out it.
The reason God had his word preserved for us, was so we would have an authorative teaching to keep us knowing his will.
I believe it takes a study of the old testament that includes how the principles of the Lord is carried out in the new testament to understand God's will.

For years I thought my study of the new testament was sufficient for that is how our world today operates, how it is completed. When someone convinced me that study wasn't sufficient I needed an understanding of the principles of the Lord God at the beginning to understand the end I found I was constantly finding "Oh, THAT is how the world works".
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#60
I believe it takes a study of the old testament that includes how the principles of the Lord is carried out in the new testament to understand God's will.

For years I thought my study of the new testament was sufficient for that is how our world today operates, how it is completed. When someone convinced me that study wasn't sufficient I needed an understanding of the principles of the Lord God at the beginning to understand the end I found I was constantly finding "Oh, THAT is how the world works".
That's part why I like my church. We read the old testament along with the related new testament passage, and a gospel passage every Sunday