Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

[Guojing]

Most reliable commentators, including the church fathers quoted 1 Corinthians 13 as what will happen at the second coming of Christ, and that the perfect was not the Christian Scriptures at all. I cannot see that Ephesians 4 has anything to do with the cessation of Spiritual gifts.


Not true. The early church fathers reported continued healing, tongues, prophecy and casting out of demons, well into the 4th Century. Augustine initially promoted cessationism, but because of the overwhelming evidence of the miraculous in his region, he changed his mind and acknowledged that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit were still evident.


They are rare, not because God has taken them away, but because of the unbelieving church that is limiting the power of the Holy Spirit in the same way that the unbelief of those in Jesus' home town prevented Him from doing many miracles, and He only able to heal a few people.


There are many testimonies all over the world that does show that the Biblical signs and wonders are still happening. This is especially evident in the third world where people believe in the supernatural far more than our "enlightened" western society which is influenced by science, while third world countries are not so influenced.

So you can only speak for yourself when you give your opinions, and not for everyone else.

So you are a continualist.

Alright then, you are then very consistent to believe there is always only one gospel for all times, as I have stated here

https://christianchat.com/threads/c...es-it-make-any-difference.198471/post-4534123

I can respect your consistency in your doctrine.

 

[presidente]

What I find most interesting is that there are people who insist that the gospel of the kingdom is the same as the gospel of the grace of God, that there is always only ONE gospel.

Yet, they also believe that the signs and wonders of the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 10:7-8), are no longer for today.

If the gospel of the kingdom has never gone away, why are the signs gone?

If signs are supposed to be gone, why do they still happen at times?

 

[Guojing]

If signs are supposed to be gone, why do they still happen at times?

Those are called miracles, not signs.

All signs are miracles but not all miracles are signs.

 

[presidente]

Those are called miracles, not signs.

All signs are miracles but not all miracles are signs.

Translators will translate the same Greek word either way.

 

[Guojing]

Translators will translate the same Greek word either way.

I explained to you, but of course, you are free to decide whether or not you want to accept it.

 

[Nehemiah6]

All signs are miracles but not all miracles are signs.

Yes and no. As applied to Christ and the apostles all miracles were signs and wonders to confirm that (1) Christ was indeed the Messiah of Israel and (2) the apostles were indeed preaching the true Gospel given by God to men. Scriptures will back this up.

At the same time, God is performing countless miracles daily, but they are not signs. The days of signs, wonders, and miracles are over. Now the just shall live by faith, and we walk by faith and not by sight. The preaching of the Gospel is designed to generate saving faith, since unbelievers will not believe the Law and the Prophets (or the Gospel) even though one rose from the dead.

 

[throughfaith]

Using what Jesus said about the Jews always seeking a sign is out of place when referring to the signs following the Apostles' preaching of the Gospel. He was referring to the specific signs the Jews were expecting to show that the Messiah had come. But when Jesus came, the signs they were expecting weren't there. He did not come as a powerful conqueror to kick the Romans out and restore sovereignty to Israel. It is important to consider the context when referring to something that Jesus said during His earthly ministry to the Jews.

The signs following the preaching of the Gospel were healing of the sick and setting pagans free from demonic influence (ie; casting out of demons). When the pagans saw the power of the Holy Spirit in operation through miracles of healing and deliverance, they realized that Jesus Christ had more power than their pagan gods. Paul came to the Corinthians with the demonstration of the Spirit and of power. It was what the Corinthians saw of the miracles in Paul's ministry that caused them to come to Christ.

There was Gregory the Wonderworker who had to spend the night in a pagan temple. The next morning, the pagan priest went in to do his thing. But because the demon in the god statue had been cast out, the priest couldn't do his supernatural ministry. He wrote a letter to Gregory pleading to allow the demon back into the statue. Gregory complied, but it was too late. The pagans saw that the power of Jesus Christ was greater than the demon in the statue and multitudes of them turned to Christ. It is the recorded that the pagan priest himself became the Christian bishop of the region. These were the type of signs that followed the preaching of the Gospel, not the signs that the Jews were looking for as evidence of the coming of their Messiah.

That's not the signs . The signs Jesus gave are here also .
Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
Luke 7 .22

And to his disciples.
Mark 16
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

[throughfaith]

Using what Jesus said about the Jews always seeking a sign is out of place when referring to the signs following the Apostles' preaching of the Gospel. He was referring to the specific signs the Jews were expecting to show that the Messiah had come. But when Jesus came, the signs they were expecting weren't there. He did not come as a powerful conqueror to kick the Romans out and restore sovereignty to Israel. It is important to consider the context when referring to something that Jesus said during His earthly ministry to the Jews.

The signs following the preaching of the Gospel were healing of the sick and setting pagans free from demonic influence (ie; casting out of demons). When the pagans saw the power of the Holy Spirit in operation through miracles of healing and deliverance, they realized that Jesus Christ had more power than their pagan gods. Paul came to the Corinthians with the demonstration of the Spirit and of power. It was what the Corinthians saw of the miracles in Paul's ministry that caused them to come to Christ.

There was Gregory the Wonderworker who had to spend the night in a pagan temple. The next morning, the pagan priest went in to do his thing. But because the demon in the god statue had been cast out, the priest couldn't do his supernatural ministry. He wrote a letter to Gregory pleading to allow the demon back into the statue. Gregory complied, but it was too late. The pagans saw that the power of Jesus Christ was greater than the demon in the statue and multitudes of them turned to Christ. It is the recorded that the pagan priest himself became the Christian bishop of the region. These were the type of signs that followed the preaching of the Gospel, not the signs that the Jews were looking for as evidence of the coming of their Messiah.

" Gregory the Wonderworker " ??

 

[Angela53510]

....or more succinctly, the Holy Spirit come to live within, not poured out upon.

Beg to differ! Those verses distinctly talk about the Holy Spirit being "poured out!"

"But 'when the kindness of God our Savior and his love for mankind appeared, 5 he saved us not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom HE POURED OUT in full measure through Jesus Christ our Savior. 7 And so, since we have been justified by his grace, we become heirs with the confident expectation of eternal life.'" Titus 3:4-7

I agree the Holy Spirit lives within us, but he was properly speaking of the above verses which do say what he said.

 

[Guojing]

Yes and no. As applied to Christ and the apostles all miracles were signs and wonders to confirm that (1) Christ was indeed the Messiah of Israel and (2) the apostles were indeed preaching the true Gospel given by God to men. Scriptures will back this up.

At the same time, God is performing countless miracles daily, but they are not signs. The days of signs, wonders, and miracles are over. Now the just shall live by faith, and we walk by faith and not by sight. The preaching of the Gospel is designed to generate saving faith, since unbelievers will not believe the Law and the Prophets (or the Gospel) even though one rose from the dead.

You are elaborating on what I said, which part is your no?

 

[PaulChristensen]

That's not the signs . The signs Jesus gave are here also .
Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
Luke 7 .22

And to his disciples.
Mark 16
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

The type of signs you are correctly quoting here, are not the signs that Jesus referred when He spoke to the ungodly Pharisees.

 

[PaulChristensen]

" Gregory the Wonderworker " ??

Look it up in Church History.

 

[PaulChristensen]

The type of signs you are correctly quoting here, are not the signs that Jesus referred when He spoke to the ungodly Pharisees.

It wasn't Jesus. It was Paul, explaining why ungodly Jews found the preaching of the Gospel an offence and the Greeks looked at it as foolishness. The context is not the same as the Scriptures you quoted. The sense of "signs" that Paul was talking about were signs from heaven, and not the signs that Jesus told to John's disciples that showed that He was the Messiah.

 

[PaulChristensen]

" Gregory the Wonderworker " ??

There is a history called "Christianizing the Roman Empire" written by a secular historian. The positive about this history is that it doesn't have any theological bias, because the author was not a Christian theologian, and I am not sure that he was even a Christian. So, he wrote his history without erasing facts that the Cessationist historians would want to suppress.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

that is fine, however, your experience doesn't null n void the word of God as shown in 1cor 12-14. And again the pentecostal you talk to, there is only 3 million of them in my denomination and if you don't know it we have a point memo and positional letters on this kind of thing, yet there are those who do not adhere as there are in all churches. The baptist and many others have done equally foolish yet the Southern Baptist have long standing of doctrinal positions against what some did in that denomination.

I do not hold all baptist to Eddie long, Jessie Jackson, Rick Warren, and many others who have made Millions and compromised the word of God.

You know there are many big name Baptists, and you can believe the are the epitome of baptist teaching. Ed young, Albert Muller. Why don't you point me to a Pentecostal big timer that is a real exemplary so I see something different. If you post a video I wl watch it.

 

[throughfaith]

Look it up in Church History.

I try stick to the bible . Thanks.

 

[presidente]

Yes and no. As applied to Christ and the apostles all miracles were signs and wonders to confirm that (1) Christ was indeed the Messiah of Israel and (2) the apostles were indeed preaching the true Gospel given by God to men. Scriptures will back this up.

At the same time, God is performing countless miracles daily, but they are not signs. The days of signs, wonders, and miracles are over.

Show us where the Bible teaches anything remotely similar to this idea.

Now the just shall live by faith, and we walk by faith and not by sight.

This is a strange false dichotomy, since having faith is intertwined with miracles. Jesus cast out a demon of a woman who had faith. Peter asked Jesus to bid him come to Him on the water. Jesus did, until he doubted, then he sank, and the Lord Jesus rescued him.

 

[presidente]

I explained to you, but of course, you are free to decide whether or not you want to accept it.

Why should I care about definitions you make up and do not explain.

The same Greek word is translated 'sign' in one place and 'miracle' in another. I do not see where the Bible makes the distinction you are making. If you can show me some scripture, please do so.

 

[Guojing]

Why should I care about definitions you make up and do not explain.

The same Greek word is translated 'sign' in one place and 'miracle' in another. I do not see where the Bible makes the distinction you are making. If you can show me some scripture, please do so.

I think Nehemiah6 also explained the same point as me.

Sozo can be translated as salvation from sins in one place and healing from diseases in another. It does not follow that both English terms are therefore equivalent.

The same Greek word can have different English meanings.

 

[Lookupnotback]

Beg to differ! Those verses distinctly talk about the Holy Spirit being "poured out!"

"But 'when the kindness of God our Savior and his love for mankind appeared, 5 he saved us not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom HE POURED OUT in full measure through Jesus Christ our Savior. 7 And so, since we have been justified by his grace, we become heirs with the confident expectation of eternal life.'" Titus 3:4-7

I agree the Holy Spirit lives within us, but he was properly speaking of the above verses which do say what he said.

It is all the things God pours out on us like grace, peace, long suffering, joy despite the circumstance, understanding of his word....there is so much more and practical gifts the Holy Spirit brings into us. The charismatics always get caught up in supernatural fireworks things to try and build up their lack of self-esteem and suckered by their emotions by the deceivers lies, always needing emotional trip’n fresh jolts of some perceived pouring out upon them of magic that is especially for the chosen few, but is that ever honestly addressed? No. They get lost in their specialness and do not see their actions to varying degrees are no different than those getting waisted in a bar singing and dancing to loud music and under the influence of drugs n’ alcohol, degrading themselves into sex on the floor. All the time thinking they are using gifts that were primarily meant for a judgement against the Jews and their pride in their laws and “real” or genuine gifts, not the enthusiasms the charismatics works themselves into.....i have been amongst You guys and seen your empty lives, the church's are nothing more than emotional trip’n worship centres be it swinging from the rafters or quietly holding hand in a circle mumbling away like a turkey, the movement is blinded by fake emotionalism’s.