50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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TheDivineWatermark

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One of the fatal flaws of the pre-trib rapture is that Jesus returns, then leaves, returns then leaves sometimes three or four times.
Again, "BIBLICALLY" speaking, the word "RETURN" is used (re: Him) only of His Second Coming to the earth time-slot, from what I see:

--Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 (and parallels) "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]

--Luke 19:12,15,17,19 (and parallels) "RETURN"... when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with, "have thou authority over TEN CITIES"... "be thou likewise over FIVE CITIES"




[those ppl in those passages are "still located on the earth" upon His "RETURN" there, never having lifted off the earth, because "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" does not pertain to ALL saints of ALL time-periods ;) ]
 

cv5

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Okay, then where is the rule that says He cannot come "to the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" (when NO ONE ELSE is IN HIS "PRESENCE" except "US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... v.1) at a distinct time from when "the MANIFESTATION OF His coming/presence/parousia" happens (per v.8b... when ALL who are on the earth will INDEED SEE HIM...

...like 1Tim6:15 says, "which IN HIS TIMES He shall SHEW [OPENLY MANIFEST who is King of kings and Lord of lords"--a phrase ..like 1Tim6:15 says, "which IN HIS TIMES He shall SHEW [OPENLY MANIFEST who is King of kings and Lord of lords"--a phrase found only in Rev19 (and in chpt 17 worded in the reverse order)--one of only TWO TIMES that "KING" (re: Him) is mentioned in ALL OF THE EPISTLES [!]...found only in Rev19 (and in chpt 17 worded in the reverse order)--one of only TWO TIMES that "KING" (re: Him) is mentioned in ALL OF THE EPISTLES [!]...

...but what FOLLOWS "our Rapture" is "the man of sin"... "IN HIS TIME" (the "IN THE NIGHT" / "DARK" / "DARKNESS" time-period [aka 7-yr trib]); and Paul is also in this context telling of the TWO *CONTRASTING* "beliefs" ppl will be coming to, while IN those trib yrs (when the man of sin will DO ALL he is slated to DO in them), [which TWO CONTRASTING "beliefs" they'll be coming to] FOLLOWING "our Rapture". This is what Paul is conveying in this context (of both chpts... 2Th2:10-12 being ONE of these TWO "beliefs" ["GOD SHALL SEND TO THEM GREAT DELUSION, SO THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE THE LIE / THE FALSE / the PSEUDEI" [i.e. during the "TIME-PERIOD" under discussion]).




You are wanting to EQUATE part of v.1 with that of v.8b... and you are wanting to EQUATE part of v.1 with what the false conveyors were purporting in v.2... but these OTHER [related] passages NEGATE what you are saying...

... therefore, I remain UNCONVINCED of your viewpoint.
1 Tim 6:15 etc........yes.
It's post like that that have me feeling I've just struck gold lol.
 

cv5

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Again, "BIBLICALLY" speaking, the word "RETURN" is used (re: Him) only of His Second Coming to the earth time-slot, from what I see:

--Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 (and parallels) "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]

--Luke 19:12,15,17,19 (and parallels) "RETURN"... when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with, "have thou authority over TEN CITIES"... "be thou likewise over FIVE CITIES"




[those ppl in those passages are "still located on the earth" upon His "RETURN" there, never having lifted off the earth, because "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" does not pertain to ALL saints of ALL time-periods ;) ]
Yes. Very clear distinction to be made between "our gathering" and "His return".
 

lamad

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Agreed.

One of the fatal flaws of the pre-trib rapture is that Jesus returns, then leaves, returns then leaves sometimes three or four times. Though not all pre-tribulationists believe in more than two advents, many do.

It's a convenient way to make the pre-trib theology work, but it doesn't stand to Biblical scrutiny. For example, there aren't any clear verses that assert Jesus leaves then came back numerous times after His second advent.

There's also what we're witnessing here right now which is essentially an effort to redefine what 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 states in nearly all Bible versions by changing the definition of Greek words. The reason they care so much about this is because the plain-text interpretation of this verse debunks the pre-trib rapture, but that isn't the end.

As you have correctly pointed out, there's a major resurrection problem pre-tribbers must contend with. The first resurrection has to include tribulation saints, meaning that it's impossible to prop up a pre-trib rapture doctrine.

If all of that wasn't enough, they usually reject Matthew 24:29-31 which bluntly says that Jesus returns after the great tribulation to gather His elect. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This is mostly personal opinion not proven with scripture. I get it that it makes you feel good writing it.

The truth is, there are and forever will be only two titled resurrections: one for the righteous, one for the unrighteous. All the righteous over time will be in the resurrection for the righteous, and all of the unrighteous will be in the "second death" resurrection. John shows us these two and ONLY these two.

It is easily proven that the righteous are resurrected at different times: Jesus first, the church next, the 144,000 next, then the beheaded plus the two witnesses plus the Old Testament saints, each in their time.

Posttribbers have been trying to prove for many years that the gathering in Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture. None have succeeded.

Most people that join in writing or preaching about the timing of the rapture cannot point to Revelation and pinpoint the real time of the rapture OR the real time of the "tribulation" or the 70th week. Most readers don't recognize the great crowd too large to number is the just raptured church - but it is. And they are in heaven in chapter 7, not in chapter 19.
 

Truth7t7

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1 Thes 5:2
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

Coming as a thief? Code words for the 7yr tribulation. Clearly. And we won't be there. Obviously.
The Thief In The Night Will Come To Dissolve The Heaven And Earth By His Fire :)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
 

Truth7t7

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The post-trib crowd says that there is not one single verse indicating the fact of the Rapture.

There is no doubt that this is a false claim on their part. For here it is for everyone to behold....

Rev 3:10
“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial (peirasmos) which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Pull A Verse Out Of Context, In Desperate Attempts To Create A Pre-Trib Rapture :)

1. How is the synagogue of Satan going to worship at the churches feet if they are gone?

2. Jesus Will Keep The Church Present On Earth During The Tribulation From The Final Hour Of Temptation


As Seen In Isaiah 26:20-21 below, the Church is instructed to enter their dwellings and shut the door, just like the passover in Egypt?

3. The Lord states Behold I Come Quickly, and mentions the (Crown) of rewards, received at the final judgement?

4. To Him That (Overcomes) how does this Overcoming take place, if the Church is raptured away from Overcoming?


Teaching That Revelation 3:10 Shows A Pre-Trib Rapture Is Pinocchio's Nose Is Growing Again :giggle:

Revelation 3:9-13KJV

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
 

cv5

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Pull A Verse Out Of Context, In Desperate Attempts To Create A Pre-Trib Rapture :)

1. How is the synagogue of Satan going to worship at the churches feet if they are gone?

2. Jesus Will Keep The Church Present On Earth During The Tribulation From The Final Hour Of Temptation

As Seen In Isaiah 26:20-21 below, the Church is instructed to enter their dwellings and shut the door, just like the passover in Egypt?

3. The Lord states Behold I Come Quickly, and mentions the (Crown) of rewards, received at the final judgement?

4. To Him That (Overcomes) how does this Overcoming take place, if the Church is raptured away from Overcoming?

Teaching That Revelation 3:10 Shows A Pre-Trib Rapture Is Pinocchio's Nose Is Growing Again :giggle:

Revelation 3:9-13KJV
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Go ahead and disprove my claim.....if indeed you are able......
 
Mar 4, 2020
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If this is Paul's intended meaning, you will have to answer a question: If the day of the rapture had arrived and was present there is no explanation as to why they were troubled and wrote to Paul. They should have been jumping up and down for excitement since they believed the day of the rapture was here. Why then were they troubled?
You correctly found the reason they were troubled. It was because they thought they had missed the gathering at the day of Christ. How they precisely were attempting to deceive the Thessalonian church into thinking this is a matter of debate.

There is a second problem: it does not agree with Paul's first letter. There he explains how the rapture will set off or be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. Paul shows them as back to back events: rapture/Day of the Lord.
Paul does not say the rapture will be the trigger for the day of the Lord. The return of Christ, the rapture, the first resurrection is the day of the Lord or day of Christ. The day of the Lord will trigger the first resurrection and the rapture:

1 Thessalonians 4:16
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then
we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:23
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Notice that the resurrection and the rapture occur after His coming? That's the day of the Lord or day of Christ.

Jesus said He would come as a thief. What He meant by that is that He will come when we least expect it:
Matthew 24:42-44
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

There is a third problem: it does not agree with John in Revelation. There he shows us the 5th seal martyrs of the church age and explains to them that the time of judgment (the Day of the Lord) will not come until the last or final martyr is killed as they all were - as church age martyrs. In other words, God has told John that they will have to wait for the entire church age and the last martyr before the Day will start and God will judge. God's plan is very simple: the rapture of the church will cause a certain martyr to be that final martyr because the rapture will END the church age. The next martyr would be a Day of the Lord or 70th week martyr.
The fifth seal in Revelation 6:9-11 doesn't say that the final martyr will trigger the end of the church age. Doesn't fit with what Matthew 24:21-22 says either which is that the days of the great tribulation will be shortened for the sake of the elect or else no one would be saved. In other words, the elect (the church) will be present for the great tribulation

Matthew 24:21-22
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Your theory would fit the Matthew 24 gathering, if indeed that was Paul's rapture - but it is not.
The Matthew 24 gathering fits perfectly with the rest of the post-tribulation because that's what the rest of the Bible teaches.

2 Thes. 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (KJV)
2 Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord [that dark day of wrath where God destroys the world and the sinners in the world] has [already] arrived and is here. (Amp)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [the day of the Lord] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (KJV)
Yes God will come to destroy the wicked at His second advent. They were troubled by that. We can't assume they fully understood this since they were being deceived. Clearly they were not very firm in their doctrine.

Notice in Revelation that the bowls and plagues don't even begin until after the Harvest of the Earth in Revelation 14. The harvest of the earth is the gathering of the wheat and tares as described in Matthew 13. Revelation 15-16 is all bowls and plagues.

Want to know what else happens on the day of the Lord? This:

2 Peter 3:10
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

If Paul was meaning a falling away from the church, how would anyone know when enough had fallen away to be THE falling away? No one would know for sure. But if Paul's meaning was the gathering, how could anyone miss such an event: it would certainly THE departing.
Deceivers had probably made them doubt their salvation or worthiness to be gathered at the return of Christ. That much is open to speculation.

Therefore I am millions of others disagree with your take on this passage.
I, and millions of others, disagree with your take on those passages.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Some Greek Texts say "Day of the Lord." Others say "day of Christ." We don't have a consensus on which day. However, since Paul's theme in this passage is the gathering, or rapture, let's refer back to His first letter about the rapture or gathering. In his first letter, about the rapture, we find:

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


Notice that in his first letter, in a rapture passage, he mentioned "the day of the Lord." Now let's look more closely at your version of this text, or your theory: we will substitute "our gathering" for "the day of Christ" and see how it reads.

2 Thes. 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (KJV)
2 Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the
[gathering] has [already] arrived and is here. (Amp)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
[the day of our gathering] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (KJV)

Verse 1: Paul sets the theme for this passage: it's about His coming and the gathering.
Verse 2: He is telling them not to be troubled or shaken in mind or alarmed due to some forged letter or some prophecy that [the day of the gathering has arrived and is here.
Verse 3: Here Paul gives two events that must come first before that day of gathering.

If this is Paul's intended meaning, you will have to answer a question: If the day of the rapture had arrived and was present there is no explanation as to why they were troubled and wrote to Paul. They should have been jumping up and down for excitement since they believed the day of the rapture was here. Why then were they troubled?

There is a second problem: it does not agree with Paul's first letter. There he explains how the rapture will set off or be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. Paul shows them as back to back events: rapture/Day of the Lord.

There is a third problem: it does not agree with John in Revelation. There he shows us the 5th seal martyrs of the church age and explains to them that the time of judgment (the Day of the Lord) will not come until the last or final martyr is killed as they all were - as church age martyrs. In other words, God has told John that they will have to wait for the entire church age and the last martyr before the Day will start and God will judge. God's plan is very simple: the rapture of the church will cause a certain martyr to be that final martyr because the rapture will END the church age. The next martyr would be a Day of the Lord or 70th week martyr.

John shows us the 1st seal start of the church age as the church takes the gospel to the nations, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th seals to represent Satan's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel, then the 5th seal martyrs of the church age, then the 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord, and right after that, the raptured church in heaven.

Your theory would fit the Matthew 24 gathering, if indeed that was Paul's rapture - but it is not.

Now let's look at it as if it was the day of the Lord.

2 Thes. 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (KJV)
2 Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord
[that dark day of wrath where God destroys the world and the sinners in the world] has [already] arrived and is here. (Amp)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
[the day of the Lord] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (KJV)

Verse 1: Paul sets the theme for this passage: it's about His coming and the gathering.
Verse 2: He is telling them not to be troubled or shaken in mind or alarmed due to some forged letter or some prophecy that the day of the Lord has arrived and is here.
Verse 3: Here Paul gives two events that must come first before that day of Lord: that dark day of judgment.

Now let's think about this: They were under heavy persecution - that would seem like the Day of the Lord. Then either some prophecy or some forged letters tells them that the Day of the Lord has started and they are IN IT. They had Paul's first letter telling them that the rapture would come first as the trigger for the Day. Now they are told the DAY has come, and they are still here. OF COURSE they are troubled! Who wouldn't be in their position? According to what they had been taught, they should have been caught up already. Perhaps some wondered if they had been left behind. This makes perfect sense for this passage. Paul's answer will be to explain that the day has NOT come and how they or anyone can know for SURE when the Day has come. First, they would see a very significant departing (from what Paul does not tell) and then they would see the man of sin revealed. How? He would enter the Holy of Holies and declare he is GOD! (No one could miss such a thing!)

If Paul was meaning a falling away from the church, how would anyone know when enough had fallen away to be THE falling away? No one would know for sure. But if Paul's meaning was the gathering, how could anyone miss such an event: it would certainly THE departing.

Therefore I am millions of others disagree with your take on this passage.
If you place the day of the Lord before the great tribulation and 2 Peter 3:10 says that on the day of the Lord the heavens and earth will be burned up, then where do you believe the great tribulation, anti-Christ, mark of the beast, vials, seals, plagues, bowls, etc. occur?

In post-tribulation, there is no such conundrum because at the coming of Christ the great tribulation is over, the first resurrection happens, the rapture happens. The earth is good for nothing but cannon fodder, full of wicked people. The wicked perish, possibly billions of them.

2 Peter 3:10
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Jesus describes His coming like the flood in the days of Noah. The saved will go with Christ, the wicked will perish. Your pre-tribulation rapture model doesn't leave room for anything else to happen after the return of Christ - meaning it doesn't make sense. It's Biblically inaccurate.

Matthew 24:37-39
37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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I thought all believers knew. When Jesus died, He didn't go to heaven. He went to Hades and preached to the spirits in prison.
Sorry... just now seeing this post ^ .



If you're speaking of 1 Peter 3, I disagree. Here's why (read carefully):

[reposting what I put in old posts]


[quoting Gaebelein on 1 Peter 3]

"The chief question is: Did our Lord go to Hades in a disembodied state? In fact, all depends on the question of what is the true meaning of the sentence, “quickened by the Spirit.” Now, according to the interpretations of the men who teach that the Lord visited Hades, the spirits in prison, during the interval between His death and the morning of the third day, He descended into these regions while His dead body was still in the grave. Therefore, these teachers claim that His human spirit was quickened, which necessitates that the spirit which the dying Christ commended into the Father’s hands had also died. This is not only incorrect doctrine, but it is an unsound and evil doctrine. Was the holy humanity of our Lord, body, soul and spirit dead? A thousands times No! Only His body died; that is the only part of Him which could die. The text makes this clear: “He was put to death in flesh,” that is, His body. There could be no quickening of His spirit, for His spirit was alive. Furthermore, the word quickening, as we learn from Ephesians 1:20 and Ephesians 2:5-6, by comparing the two passages, applies to His physical resurrection, it is the quickening of His body. To teach that the Lord Jesus was made alive before His resurrection is unscriptural. The “quickened by the Spirit” means the raising up of His body. His human spirit needed no quickening; it was His body and only His body. And the Spirit who did the quickening is not His own spirit, that is, His human spirit, but the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:11 speaks of the Spirit as raising Jesus from among the dead.

"We have shown that it was an impossibility that Christ was in any way quickened while His body was not yet raised, hence a visit to Hades is positively excluded between His death and resurrection. There is only another alternative. If it is true that He descended into these regions, then it must have been after His resurrection. But that is equally untenable. The so-called “Apostle’s Creed” puts the descent between His death and resurrection and all the other theorists follow this view. We have shown what the passage does not mean. It cannot mean a visit of the disembodied Christ to Hades, for it speaks of the quickening by the Spirit, and that means His physical resurrection.

"What, then, does the passage mean? It is very simple after all. He preached by the Spirit, or in the Spirit, that is, the same Spirit who raised Him from among the dead, the Holy Spirit of life and power, to the spirits who are now in prison. But when the preaching occurred they were not in prison. And who were they? All the wicked dead for 4,000 years? The text makes it clear that they are a special class of people. They were living in the days of Noah. It is incomprehensible how some of these teachers, misinterpreting this passage, can teach that it includes all the lost, or angels which fell, or the righteous dead. The Spirit of God preached to them, that is, the Spirit who quickened the body of Christ, the same Spirit preached to the generation of unbelievers in the days of Noah. The time of the preaching, then, did not occur between the death and resurrection of Christ, but it took place in Noah’s day. Christ was not personally, or corporeally present, just as He is not present in person in this age when the gospel is preached; His Spirit is here.

"So was He present by His Spirit in the days of Noah. It is written: “My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3). His Spirit was then on the earth. In long-suffering God was waiting for one hundred and twenty years while the ark was preparing. His Spirit preached then. But He needed an instrument. The instrument was Noah; in him was the Spirit of Christ and as the preacher of righteousness (2Peter 2:5) he delivered the warning message of an impending judgment to those about him, who did not heed the message, passed on in disobedience, were swept away by the deluge and are now the spirits in prison. As the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets (1Peter 1:11) testifying beforehand of the suffering of Christ and the glory that should follow, so the Spirit of Christ preached through Noah. This is the meaning of this passage, and any other is faulty and unscriptural."

-- https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/1_peter/3.htm


[end quoting old post; bold and underline mine]
 

GaryA

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Let's clear that up, right away. TONS of ppl will be coming to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... in fact, "our Rapture" event will be a primary IMPETUS that points Israel to their Messiah and their coming to faith IN HIM (WELL-BEFORE the final end of the Trib makes it TOO LATE for anyone to do so [/come to faith])
No one will be saved after the rapture before the Wrath of God is "poured out" upon the earth.

Not because it is a "cut-off point" designated by God; rather, it is so because of the wicked.

God is not willing that any should parish.

At the point in time when no one else will come to Him, Jesus will return, the rapture will occur, and the Wrath of God will be "poured out" upon the earth.
 

Evmur

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One reason why Jesus will come after the tribulation ....

.... He said so.

"After the tribulation of those days ...... they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven with great power and glory and He will send forth His angels to gather His elect from the four winds of Heaven"
 

lamad

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Agreed.

One of the fatal flaws of the pre-trib rapture is that Jesus returns, then leaves, returns then leaves sometimes three or four times. Though not all pre-tribulationists believe in more than two advents, many do.

It's a convenient way to make the pre-trib theology work, but it doesn't stand to Biblical scrutiny. For example, there aren't any clear verses that assert Jesus leaves then came back numerous times after His second advent.

There's also what we're witnessing here right now which is essentially an effort to redefine what 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 states in nearly all Bible versions by changing the definition of Greek words. The reason they care so much about this is because the plain-text interpretation of this verse debunks the pre-trib rapture, but that isn't the end.

As you have correctly pointed out, there's a major resurrection problem pre-tribbers must contend with. The first resurrection has to include tribulation saints, meaning that it's impossible to prop up a pre-trib rapture doctrine.

If all of that wasn't enough, they usually reject Matthew 24:29-31 which bluntly says that Jesus returns after the great tribulation to gather His elect. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Three or four times? Ha ha! Are you setting up a strawman?

Look, this is not that difficult. He comes the next time to the air only, and returns to heaven, as shown in John 14. He remains in heaven during the entire 70th week and we are there with Him as Paul stated: so shall we every be with the Lord." This is easily seen in Revelation if people are honest with the scriptures: we all agree that Rev. 19 shows His coming to Armageddon. However, God did not show John the rapture or any previous coming so John did not show us. What God did show John is the raptured church in heaven before any part of the 70th week - as that great crowd too large to number.

He comes as shown in Rev. 19 over 7 years later, and stays for a thousand years. See how easy that was?

No one is changing definitions: the truth is, Strong's has THREE definitions: first, for apostasia as a compound word, next, as the two separate words of the compound word.

This reminds me of an English word. Back in the 60's college professors wanted to sound smart using the words "paradigm shift." Paradigm too is a compound word, "para" as in parallel: two things close together to make them easy to compare or show or display; and digm meaning to show or display. Common sense and old dictionaries lead me to believe when it was first used, back in the 1400's, it might have been used to include the meaning of both words, "para" and "digm" as a paradigm being displaying or showing two things close together so as to make an easy comparison.

From a dictionary: the two words together: "to show side by side."

Dictionary now:
1st definition: a pattern or model.

How then did it ever change to be used a "a model?" That escapes the meaning of both words that were used to make up "paradigm!" Then another word was added: if a model no longer worked and they needed a new model, they had a "paradigm shift" again escaping the definition of both words used separately.

Therefore it is no wonder that Strong's has "a falling away, defection, apostasy" for apostasia. The Greek scholar, Kenneth Wuest, says "falling away" is an interpretation, not a translation. We already know that several of the earlier translators translated apostasia as a departing. I don't think "falling away" works for several reasons. First, if one falls away (from the church) two more get born again to replace it. The church is GROWING, not falling away. I am convinced it will continue to grow right up to the rapture. Next, a falling away does not fit the context of the passage.

Did Paul know the meaning of Apo and Stasia - the two words that make up apostasia? I think we can be sure He did. Could Paul then have used this word in its original meaning as the meaning of each word used together? Of course he could. People could use "paradigm" in a sentence as a showing or a display and people would probably get the meaning - even though the modern meaning has changed. Most people would recognize "para" from parallel or paratrooper, meaning side by side or along side.

All this aside, the true, intended meaning of apostasia has to fit the CONTEXT of the passage. A "falling away" does not fit. How would anyone know when enough had fallen away for them to say, "Ah! So this is what Paul was saying." Next, it also has to be parallel to the restraining force being "taken out of the way" because of the sentence it is used in. I don't think a "falling away" can be compared in any way with something "taken out of the way." Next, where is there any force or power in a falling away that would restrain the man of sin from being revealed before his time?

We will probably disagree on this until we arrive in heaven.
 

lamad

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No one will be saved after the rapture before the Wrath of God is "poured out" upon the earth.

Not because it is a "cut-off point" designated by God; rather, it is so because of the wicked.

God is not willing that any should parish.

At the point in time when no one else will come to Him, Jesus will return, the rapture will occur, and the Wrath of God will be "poured out" upon the earth.
How then can you explain the beheaded showing up in heaven in Rev. 15? Are not "saved?"
 

lamad

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One reason why Jesus will come after the tribulation ....

.... He said so.

"After the tribulation of those days ...... they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven with great power and glory and He will send forth His angels to gather His elect from the four winds of Heaven"
OF COURSE He is coming after the trib.' Rev. 19 shows this coming. But 1 Thes. 4 shows a previous coming - but only to the clouds.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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No one will be saved after the rapture before the Wrath of God is "poured out" upon the earth.
I've said this to you before, GaryA... Of the "7 Vials," scripture says, "for IN THEM the wrath of God IS COMPLETED" (not the point in time when it was STARTED AND COMPLETED)... just like that word is used in Rev10:7 and doesn't mean such a thing regarding THAT Subject:


ἐτελέσθη (etelesthē) — 2 Occurrences

Revelation 10:7 V-AIP-3S
GRK: σαλπίζειν καὶ ἐτελέσθη τὸ μυστήριον
KJV: of God should be finished, as
INT: to sound [the] trumpet also should be completed the mystery

Revelation 15:1 V-AIP-3S
GRK: ἐν αὐταῖς ἐτελέσθη ὁ θυμὸς
NAS: in them the wrath of God is finished.
KJV: in them is filled up the wrath of God.
INT: in them was completed the wrath





[Now, are you also suggesting that "the mystery of God" (Rev10:7 ^ ) is "STARTED AND COMPLETED" in "the days of the 7th Trumpet"?? I think NOT... At least, it surely doesn't seem right to suggest such. ;) ]



Again (as I've said)... in the "2nd SEAL Wars" (="beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" Jesus spoke of)... I see this parallel to Ezek38:18-19's war (and its "WRATH" words there), where 39:7 is parallel wording to that of what Joseph did in the SECOND YEAR of his "seven year famine" in Gen45:1,6(46:2 'of the NIGHT'--Dan7:7, and other related passages with same...)
 

lamad

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I've said this to you before, GaryA... Of the "7 Vials," scripture says, "for IN THEM the wrath of God IS COMPLETED" (not the point in time when it was STARTED AND COMPLETED)... just like that word is used in Rev10:7 and doesn't mean such a thing regarding THAT Subject:


ἐτελέσθη (etelesthē) — 2 Occurrences

Revelation 10:7 V-AIP-3S
GRK: σαλπίζειν καὶ ἐτελέσθη τὸ μυστήριον
KJV: of God should be finished, as
INT: to sound [the] trumpet also should be completed the mystery

Revelation 15:1 V-AIP-3S
GRK: ἐν αὐταῖς ἐτελέσθη ὁ θυμὸς
NAS: in them the wrath of God is finished.
KJV: in them is filled up the wrath of God.
INT: in them was completed the wrath





[Now, are you also suggesting that "the mystery of God" (Rev10:7 ^ ) is "STARTED AND COMPLETED" in "the days of the 7th Trumpet"?? I think NOT... At least, it surely doesn't seem right to suggest such. ;) ]



Again (as I've said)... in the "2nd SEAL Wars" (="beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" Jesus spoke of)... I see this parallel to Ezek38:18-19's war (and its "WRATH" words there), where 39:7 is parallel wording to that of what Joseph did in the SECOND YEAR of his "seven year famine" in Gen45:1,6(46:2 'of the NIGHT'--Dan7:7, and other related passages with same...)
"by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence" was used frequently in the Old Testament as God's means to punish.
Here in Revelation God will allow Satan to use the same things (sword = war) to stop the advance of the gospel. But God will limit them to only 1/4 the earth. We can believe that 1/4 is centered on Israel where the gospel began.
 

GaryA

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No one will be saved after the rapture before the Wrath of God is "poured out" upon the earth.

Not because it is a "cut-off point" designated by God; rather, it is so because of the wicked.

God is not willing that any should parish.

At the point in time when no one else will come to Him, Jesus will return, the rapture will occur, and the Wrath of God will be "poured out" upon the earth.
the resurrection and rapture will occur
 

GaryA

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How then can you explain the beheaded showing up in heaven in Rev. 15? Are not "saved?"
The 'beheaded' came out of 'tribulation' - which occurs [in its entirety] before the rapture.
 

lamad

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Sorry... just now seeing this post ^ .



If you're speaking of 1 Peter 3, I disagree. Here's why (read carefully):

[reposting what I put in old posts]


[quoting Gaebelein on 1 Peter 3]

"The chief question is: Did our Lord go to Hades in a disembodied state? In fact, all depends on the question of what is the true meaning of the sentence, “quickened by the Spirit.” Now, according to the interpretations of the men who teach that the Lord visited Hades, the spirits in prison, during the interval between His death and the morning of the third day, He descended into these regions while His dead body was still in the grave. Therefore, these teachers claim that His human spirit was quickened, which necessitates that the spirit which the dying Christ commended into the Father’s hands had also died. This is not only incorrect doctrine, but it is an unsound and evil doctrine. Was the holy humanity of our Lord, body, soul and spirit dead? A thousands times No! Only His body died; that is the only part of Him which could die. The text makes this clear: “He was put to death in flesh,” that is, His body. There could be no quickening of His spirit, for His spirit was alive. Furthermore, the word quickening, as we learn from Ephesians 1:20 and Ephesians 2:5-6, by comparing the two passages, applies to His physical resurrection, it is the quickening of His body. To teach that the Lord Jesus was made alive before His resurrection is unscriptural. The “quickened by the Spirit” means the raising up of His body. His human spirit needed no quickening; it was His body and only His body. And the Spirit who did the quickening is not His own spirit, that is, His human spirit, but the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:11 speaks of the Spirit as raising Jesus from among the dead.

"We have shown that it was an impossibility that Christ was in any way quickened while His body was not yet raised, hence a visit to Hades is positively excluded between His death and resurrection. There is only another alternative. If it is true that He descended into these regions, then it must have been after His resurrection. But that is equally untenable. The so-called “Apostle’s Creed” puts the descent between His death and resurrection and all the other theorists follow this view. We have shown what the passage does not mean. It cannot mean a visit of the disembodied Christ to Hades, for it speaks of the quickening by the Spirit, and that means His physical resurrection.

"What, then, does the passage mean? It is very simple after all. He preached by the Spirit, or in the Spirit, that is, the same Spirit who raised Him from among the dead, the Holy Spirit of life and power, to the spirits who are now in prison. But when the preaching occurred they were not in prison. And who were they? All the wicked dead for 4,000 years? The text makes it clear that they are a special class of people. They were living in the days of Noah. It is incomprehensible how some of these teachers, misinterpreting this passage, can teach that it includes all the lost, or angels which fell, or the righteous dead. The Spirit of God preached to them, that is, the Spirit who quickened the body of Christ, the same Spirit preached to the generation of unbelievers in the days of Noah. The time of the preaching, then, did not occur between the death and resurrection of Christ, but it took place in Noah’s day. Christ was not personally, or corporeally present, just as He is not present in person in this age when the gospel is preached; His Spirit is here.

"So was He present by His Spirit in the days of Noah. It is written: “My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3). His Spirit was then on the earth. In long-suffering God was waiting for one hundred and twenty years while the ark was preparing. His Spirit preached then. But He needed an instrument. The instrument was Noah; in him was the Spirit of Christ and as the preacher of righteousness (2Peter 2:5) he delivered the warning message of an impending judgment to those about him, who did not heed the message, passed on in disobedience, were swept away by the deluge and are now the spirits in prison. As the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets (1Peter 1:11) testifying beforehand of the suffering of Christ and the glory that should follow, so the Spirit of Christ preached through Noah. This is the meaning of this passage, and any other is faulty and unscriptural."

-- https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/1_peter/3.htm


[end quoting old post; bold and underline mine]
His human spirit was quickened, which necessitates that the spirit which the dying Christ commended into the Father’s hands had also died. I don't think so. It is impossible a spirit - either human or the second person of the trinity - could die as in cease to have life. Why could it have been glorified as the meaning of quickened? There can be no doubt He descended into hades just as millions before Him had descended: He told the thief that He would seem in that day in paradise. Make no mistake, "Abraham's Bosom or paradise was close to the fire side of hell and was visible from there.

Some people insist Jesus died spiritually, meaning, He was separated from God as Adam was separated from Him and then all human spirits following Adam. They also insist He went to the fire side of Hades BECAUSE He was separated from God. I can't see how He could see the thief in paradise if this was so. How do you explain how he met the thief in paradise?

Next, there is the parallel of Jonah: Jesus said that just as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the whale, so Jesus would be in the heart of the earth. I believe Jonah died in the fish's belly and His spirit went down to hades. Where do you think Jesus went after He died?