50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,708
2,496
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#2
1 Reason There Won't Be A Pre-Trib Rapture :giggle:

The church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and be eyewitnesses to the second coming

(They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming)

(Lift Up Your Heads For Your Redemption Draweth Nigh)

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
18,721
10,384
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#3
50 Reasons... that's impressive.

88 reasons would have been more impressive, but hey, nobody's perfect. :LOL:
 

Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
1,154
485
83
#5
1 Reason There Won't Be A Pre-Trib Rapture :giggle:

The church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and be eyewitnesses to the second coming

(They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming)

(Lift Up Your Heads For Your Redemption Draweth Nigh)

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
You are shure? To whom Jesus spoke?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,544
7,663
113
#6
(They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming)
Can you imagine the ABSURDITY of Christians weeping and wailing because their redemption draweth nigh. So why do you love lies more than truth?
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
6,776
1,038
113
#7
Some of the reasons are poor or downright false:

Like this,
1. While posttribulationism appeared as early as 2 Thessalonians 2, many in the early church believed in the imminency of the Lord’s return, which is an essential doctrine of pretribulationism.
Poor reason. If II Thessalonians 2 teaches post-trib, why believe in pre-trib?

If he is saying Paul is responding to post-trib reasoning, that does not fit the wording of the passage.

This is false:
3. Pretribulationism is the only view that allows literal interpretation of all Old and New Testament passages on the Great Tribulation.
False, post-trib allows for a (reasonably) literal interpretation of NT and OT, more literal than pre-trib. Some pretribbers desparate to find some actual evidence for their position have allegoricalized the instruction to John to 'Come up hither.'

This line of argument is false:
8. None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30, 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10, 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18).
I Thessalonians 1 shows that the church receives rest from them that trouble her when Jesus returns to execute wrath on them that know not God and to be glorified in the saints. Many pre-tribbers believe Jesus is going to come part-way down, get the saints, there will be three and a half years of relative peace on earth-- not immediate displays of vengence, followed by persecution of God's people and the second coming.
This is a bogus argument.
12. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming of Christ after the Tribulation.
The Bible never says Jesus is coming back multiple times after the ascension. It refers to the parousia/coming of Christ. There is no reason to think there are more than one of these parousia events. In I Thessalonians 4, the rapture and resurrection occur at the parousia. In I Corinthians 15, the dead are made alive 'at his coming.'

If he is focused on the book of Revelation, there is no reference to the rapture of the church before the tribulation. Other scripture sets the rapture at the coming of Christ. None sets it seven years before Jesus' coming. The rapture passage in I Thessalonians 4 sets it at the rapture.

In II Thessalonians 2, the passage about the man of sin, that wicked is destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's parousia/coming. The rapture occurs at the parousia/coming of Christ in I Thessalonians 4. Pre-trib doesn't have the man of sin being revealed until after the rapture.

13. The church is not appointed to wrath (Rom. 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:9). The church therefore cannot enter “the great day of their wrath” (Rev. 6:17).
So what then? Does the church have to be destroyed in heaven during this time before the day of wrath according to pre-trib? Does the church exist during this day of wrath, or not?

The issue is whether the church is appointed to wrath, not whether it exists during God's outpouring of wrath. Wrath is anger. God is not angry with the saints with whom He is well pleased. Read Revelation. is God angry with the tribulational saints, who overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of His testimony? When many of them die, why would He listen to their prayers if He is angry? Doesn't this pre-trib argument insist that God must have wrath toward whatever pre-trib saints are on the earth during this time?

The not appointed unto wrath verse says that ye are not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation. The tribulational saints who overcome are not appointed to wrath, weather or not they are on earth while God pours his wrath on the wicked. So there is no argument for pre-trib here.

17. It is characteristic of divine dealing to deliver believers before a divine judgment is inflicted on the world as illustrated in the deliverance of Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (2 Peter 2:5-9).
God preserved Noah in the midst of the flood. He was able to pour plagues out on Egypt without getting them on His people. God is able to aim His judgments.
18. At the time of the translation of the church, all believers go to the Father’s house in heaven (John 14:3) and do not immediately return to the earth after meeting Christ in the air as posttribulationists teach.
Cited verse does not prove the point. No surprise.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
2,884
1,928
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#9
1. Jesus returns immediately after the great tribulation:

Matthew 24:29-30
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

2. Jesus sends out His angels to gather His elect after the great tribulation:

Mark 13:27
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

3. The elect of Jesus are the church, not unbelieving Jewish people:

Romans 11:7
7What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened
-----------------------------------------------------------
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
9,161
4,969
113
#10
Some of the reasons are poor or downright false:

Like this,

Poor reason. If II Thessalonians 2 teaches post-trib, why believe in pre-trib?

If he is saying Paul is responding to post-trib reasoning, that does not fit the wording of the passage.

This is false:


False, post-trib allows for a (reasonably) literal interpretation of NT and OT, more literal than pre-trib. Some pretribbers desparate to find some actual evidence for their position have allegoricalized the instruction to John to 'Come up hither.'

This line of argument is false:


I Thessalonians 1 shows that the church receives rest from them that trouble her when Jesus returns to execute wrath on them that know not God and to be glorified in the saints. Many pre-tribbers believe Jesus is going to come part-way down, get the saints, there will be three and a half years of relative peace on earth-- not immediate displays of vengence, followed by persecution of God's people and the second coming.
This is a bogus argument.


The Bible never says Jesus is coming back multiple times after the ascension. It refers to the parousia/coming of Christ. There is no reason to think there are more than one of these parousia events. In I Thessalonians 4, the rapture and resurrection occur at the parousia. In I Corinthians 15, the dead are made alive 'at his coming.'

If he is focused on the book of Revelation, there is no reference to the rapture of the church before the tribulation. Other scripture sets the rapture at the coming of Christ. None sets it seven years before Jesus' coming. The rapture passage in I Thessalonians 4 sets it at the rapture.

In II Thessalonians 2, the passage about the man of sin, that wicked is destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's parousia/coming. The rapture occurs at the parousia/coming of Christ in I Thessalonians 4. Pre-trib doesn't have the man of sin being revealed until after the rapture.



So what then? Does the church have to be destroyed in heaven during this time before the day of wrath according to pre-trib? Does the church exist during this day of wrath, or not?

The issue is whether the church is appointed to wrath, not whether it exists during God's outpouring of wrath. Wrath is anger. God is not angry with the saints with whom He is well pleased. Read Revelation. is God angry with the tribulational saints, who overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of His testimony? When many of them die, why would He listen to their prayers if He is angry? Doesn't this pre-trib argument insist that God must have wrath toward whatever pre-trib saints are on the earth during this time?

The not appointed unto wrath verse says that ye are not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation. The tribulational saints who overcome are not appointed to wrath, weather or not they are on earth while God pours his wrath on the wicked. So there is no argument for pre-trib here.



God preserved Noah in the midst of the flood. He was able to pour plagues out on Egypt without getting them on His people. God is able to aim His judgments.


Cited verse does not prove the point. No surprise.
In fact I disagree with with point # 1 by the good doctor. Quite frankly I'm a little bit puzzled by the statement........It doesn't make sense. Truly 2 Thessalonians 2 is MEGA pre-trib rapture. That's the first thing I noticed reading the commentary.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,526
113
#11
1. Jesus returns immediately after the great tribulation:

Matthew 24:29-30
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

2. Jesus sends out His angels to gather His elect after the great tribulation:

Mark 13:27
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

3. The elect of Jesus are the church, not unbelieving Jewish people:

Romans 11:7
7What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened
-----------------------------------------------------------
1. Is Jesus returning in judgment. The rapture Jesus comes in the clouds to remove the church and all the believers up into heaven with Him.

2.The gathering is the elect nation of Israel. A restoration to the land they were promised. These will populate the millennial kingdom on the earth for a thousand years.

3. The elect is two fold. Israel is elect among the nations. The church is saved people who are elect in Christ. These are already gathered and not lost among the other nations of the world.

Simple misunderstanding of the scriptures.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,526
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#12
In fact I disagree with with point # 1 by the good doctor. Quite frankly I'm a little bit puzzled by the statement........It doesn't make sense. Truly 2 Thessalonians 2 is MEGA pre-trib rapture. That's the first thing I noticed reading the commentary.
The thing is that we need only one reason to believe. Scripture teaches we shall be taken up and all we need do is trust the promise of God. Those who do not desire to go probably will not go.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
2,884
1,928
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#13
1. Is Jesus returning in judgment. The rapture Jesus comes in the clouds to remove the church and all the believers up into heaven with Him.

2.The gathering is the elect nation of Israel. A restoration to the land they were promised. These will populate the millennial kingdom on the earth for a thousand years.

3. The elect is two fold. Israel is elect among the nations. The church is saved people who are elect in Christ. These are already gathered and not lost among the other nations of the world.

Simple misunderstanding of the scriptures.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I just presented the truth about the great tribulation, return of Christ, and rapture to you.

Like many do, you just circumvented and/or distort the truths presented to find what you want to believe.

If you want to find a pre-tribulation rapture you can infer or project it by removing verses from all context, ignoring other verses, and redefining words to suit your purposes.

The end product is a theology with more holes in it than Swiss cheese that cannot stand up to Biblical scrutiny.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,526
113
#14
I just presented the truth about the great tribulation, return of Christ, and rapture to you.

Like many do, you just circumvented and/or distort the truths presented to find what you want to believe.

If you want to find a pre-tribulation rapture you can infer or project it by removing verses from all context, ignoring other verses, and redefining words to suit your purposes.

The end product is a theology with more holes in it than Swiss cheese that cannot stand up to Biblical scrutiny.
While it may seem that way to you I find your reasoning biblically flawed. It makes no difference to God as He is going to send Jesus to gather the church at the appointed time.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
2,884
1,928
113
#15
1. Is Jesus returning in judgment. The rapture Jesus comes in the clouds to remove the church and all the believers up into heaven with Him.

2.The gathering is the elect nation of Israel. A restoration to the land they were promised. These will populate the millennial kingdom on the earth for a thousand years.

3. The elect is two fold. Israel is elect among the nations. The church is saved people who are elect in Christ. These are already gathered and not lost among the other nations of the world.

Simple misunderstanding of the scriptures.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Do you have Jesus returning twice?

Scriptures please.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#16
Do you have Jesus returning twice?

Scriptures please.
Once in the clouds to take away the church and once to the earth to rescue Israel.

Acts 1:11 first return for the church. Only the church see Christ in the clouds.

Zech 14:4 Entering the city to rescue Israel. The whole world sees Christ alight on the earth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
7,715
1,486
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#17
Can you imagine the ABSURDITY of Christians weeping and wailing because their redemption draweth nigh.
Additionally, a simple SEARCH of the word "tribe / tribes - G5443" (used in Revelation 1:7) shows that this word pretty much is only used (throughout Scripture) in reference to Israel:

[G5443, and/or "tribe / tribes"]

"tribe / tribes" - 297x [TOTAL]
- https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=tribe&version=KJV

"tribes" - 111x
- https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=tribes&version=KJV







[I agree with those saying "shall gather... FROM THE FOUR WINDS" speaks in regard to their having been "SCATTERED" (this is not the case regarding "the Church which is His body"); ex. Matt24:29-31 = Isa27:12-13... note WHO, and gathered BY WHOM, and IN WHAT MANNER they are gathered, and by WHAT TRUMPET and WHEN, and TO WHERE... in every way DISTINCT from the description of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" (noting also the distinction between the use of "[all] the tribes [/kindreds] - G5443 [of the earth]" in Rev1:7 contrasted with the whole listing used in Rev5:9 "out of EVERY tribe/kindred [G5443] AND tongue AND people AND nation" ['hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of every...'])]
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
2,884
1,928
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#18
Once in the clouds to take away the church and once to the earth to rescue Israel.

Acts 1:11 first return for the church. Only the church see Christ in the clouds.

Zech 14:4 Entering the city to rescue Israel. The whole world sees Christ alight on the earth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
You're saying there are two returns on Christ but no such language is implied. It just doesn't exist. That's what I meant that people circumvent or distort the truth to apply their private interpretation to scripture.

Nevertheless, here's what the Bible actually says regarding the verses you showed:

In Acts 1:11 they are standing on the Mount of Olives saying that Jesus will return the same way He left. Read verse 12 where it says they left the Mount of Olives.

Jesus ascended from the Mount of Olives at a place called Bethany:

Luke 24:50-51
50And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
5,403
3,583
113
#19
I just presented the truth about the great tribulation, return of Christ, and rapture to you.

Like many do, you just circumvented and/or distort the truths presented to find what you want to believe.

If you want to find a pre-tribulation rapture you can infer or project it by removing verses from all context, ignoring other verses, and redefining words to suit your purposes.

The end product is a theology with more holes in it than Swiss cheese that cannot stand up to Biblical scrutiny.
PreTribulation Rapture.jpg
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,708
2,496
113
#20
Since we are already in the GT period, 'pre-trib' (anything) is [literally] not possible - it is already past...
I disagree with the (Historicist) interpretation you believe in and teach

There will be a future time of (Great Tribulation) that will begin, when a (Future) literal human man is revealed in Jerusalem, who will proclaim to be Messiah God, he will be given power for 42 months, and is identified in scripture as seen below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Daniel 7:8-11
Paul's (Man Of Sin) 2 Thess 2 3-5
John's (The Beast) Rev 13:1-5