50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Really no big deal. DW is just trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Since Christ is one Person, the singular makes sense. What DW doesn't want to admit is that what follows that singular "first fruit" is the phrase "THEN those who belong to Him".
No, I'm not just making a mountain out of a molehill.
True. Not just... More than that.

I'm talking about what I'd said in another post about His fulfilling "FIRSTFRUIT" (Lev23:10-12) on the VERY DAY of His RESURRECTION (John 20:17)...
" Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”

Here is a problem. You make a statement, cite a verse. When I look at that verse, it is nothing like what you have stated.

Nothing about "fulfilling" first fruit". Firstfruit refers to the fact that Jesus is the FIRST Person to receive a resurrection body.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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You have either GOT to be joking...

OR you have somehow gotten ME mixed up with ANOTHER POSTER (like T7t7 ??) who does NOT believe there will be a literal Millennium (per the numerous times it is mentioned there in Rev20... not to mention referenced in other passages).
My bad. Sorry. It happens.
 

Truth7t7

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Darby has set up shop in their minds.
They are obsessed with darby.

Pretribs never even heard of him

Postribs obsess over many dead men.

Their mind has become a graveyard lol
John N Darby & Adulterer C.I. Scofield are foundations in your beliefs and teachings of a Pre-Trib Rapture (Truth)

As If Mormons want to forget Joseph Smith, and 7th Day Adventist Ellen G. White

Your living in denial of factual presented truth
 

Truth7t7

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According to your theory then, the 70th week will be 7 weeks not 7 years.

That would mean God was mistaken when He showed John this say final "7" would be 7 years, divided in the middle and proven by half the week being 1260 days, or 42 each 30 day months, or 3 1/2 years. Sorry, but I am going to go with John here. It is going to be a 7 year period of time. Have you ever read Sir Robert Anderson's book, the "Coming Prince?"
The 1260 days of the Two Witnesses and 42 months of The Beast, are parallel teachings of the same time frame of 3.5 years the Great Tribulation, this starts at the revealing of the (Man Of Sin/Antichrist) as seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Its John N. Darby's dispensationalism that "falsely teaches" the book of Revelation is in chronological order

The book of Revelation is seen in "Parallel" teachings of same events

Revelation 11:3KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 13:5KJV
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
 

Truth7t7

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It is a gathering, but it is not Paul's rapture, which will come just before wrath. This gathering comes after wrath.
Please post your claim of Paul's Rapture, Waiting? :giggle:
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Howdy FreeGrace2. I can PROVE IT to someone WHO is Born Again.
So, is this the time for an insinuation that I may not be born again and therefore can't understand what you claim?

Genuine FAITH is in the HEART, and NOT in what lies between your EARS.
How sappy. Genuine faith is in the soul, the mind, the seat of the personality. But it seems you have accepted the nonsense that your muscular bag called a 'heart' that pumps blood is where your faith is.

NO POINT in Proving it to someone who is not Born Again.
OK, let's just dispense with this nonsense. I have placed my full trust in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who died on the cross for my sins, and has given me the free gift of eternal life. So you don't have to insinuate anything.

I have been born again.

I can Prove the beyond a shadow of a doubt, the rapture to anybody that is Born Again, without that it is a excercise in futility. Here is why:

1 Cor. 2:6-16, NIV
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”[b]—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c]

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”[d]
But we have the mind of Christ.

That is truly what I BELIEVE IN MY HEART, and NOTHING CAN SWAY ME from that TRUTH.
Well, you have made bold claims that you CAN prove a pre-trib rapture, yet your post here doesn't even try.

All you've done is hide behind 1 Cor 2:6-16 as your reason to NOT even try to prove it to me.

So, basically, you believe that I am not born again, and that without any evidence.

So, you've not proved your claim yet. I don't think you have any proof.
 

Truth7t7

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It's easy to understand once you learn pretrib language:

Apostasy means leaving the planet

Glory means invisible

Revealing means vanishing

Appearance means concealed
"Learn Pre-Trib Language"? :unsure:

Apostasy Means Leaving The Plantet, Revealing Means Vanishing, Appearance Means Concealed? o_O

2 Peter 1:20KJV
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
 

Truth7t7

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The word "fire" is used of judgment throughout Scripture. So yes, it's not a boy scout camp out. When He returns at the Second Advent, and sets up His Millennial rule, He will be JUDGING THE NATIONS. That's what's meant.


No, I UNDERSTAND how the Bible uses "fire", that's all.


You deny the truth of Rev 20. It's very clear.


That's what I said!! Fire is judgment.


That's what I said!! fire IS judgment.


No, not "immediately" after the tribulation. But you deny the truth of Rev 20, so I can't help you any further.


Yes, that will certainly occur, but Not at the return of Christ. Again, you simply deny the truth of Rev 20.


Yes He will. But not on your warped time schedule.


Apparently you think Peter was disagreeing with the apostle John regarding Rev 20.


And all this is AFTER Rev 20, which is about a 1,000 year rule by Christ on earth.


This is the Second Advent.


Why in the world would you quote ANYTHING from Rev 20 since you reject the bulk of it??
We Will Strongly Disagree:)

Yes You Openly Deny The Fire In Destruction At The Lords Appearing, Revealing, Below

You Desire For A Return Of Jesus Christ To Start A Millennium On Earth

Scripture Teaches It Will Be Fire Time At The Lords Appearance, Revealing.

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved
, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 

Truth7t7

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And all this is AFTER Rev 20, which is about a 1,000 year rule by Christ on earth.


This is the Second Advent.


Why in the world would you quote ANYTHING from Rev 20 since you reject the bulk of it??
You desire to see a Millennial Kingdom in Revelation 20:1-6 Below, However Its Non-Existent (Fact)

Perhaps you can help me find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) No Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) No Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) No Physical Mortal Humans?


The Above Claims (Don't Exist), A 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Is A Man Made Fairy Tale (Fact)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time (Fact)

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 

Truth7t7

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--1Th4:17 isn't supplying ANY "TIMING" as to WHEN "our Rapture" will occur (in and of itself--that verse alone)
The main scripture used by supporters of the Pre-Trib Rapture teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture, don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 

lamad

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TheDivineWatermark said:
Incorrect.

The word "firstfruit" here is in the SINGULAR.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-20.htm

Really no big deal. DW is just trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Since Christ is one Person, the singular makes sense. What DW doesn't want to admit is that what follows that singular "first fruit" is the phrase "THEN those who belong to Him".

It's pretty obvious that Paul was identifying 2 groups of resurrection here. The "first" group is Christ the "first fruit", and the second group is "those who belong to Him".

So DW cannot avoid the problem of Rev 20:5 that clearly states that Trib martyrs are in the FIRST resurrection. That would place them in that second grouping that Paul refers to as "THEN those who belong to Him".

But, sinc DW denies the reality of the Millennium in Rev 20, where 1,000 years is mentioned 5 times, with reference to ending and "are over", there's no use in trying to help him with any facts. His mind appears to be made up already, but without facts.
Why is there any problem? The word "first" is in priority an honor, not in sequence.
 

lamad

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The main scripture used by supporters of the Pre-Trib Rapture teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture, don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
You can pull verses out of their context and make up any doctrine. We shouldn't form doctrine from isolated verses (taking the 1 Thes. 4 passage by itself) but rather by all the end times scriptures.

If we take Paul's rapture verse and see where it fits in John's Revelation narrative, it fits perfectly between the 5th and 6th seal. The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age. They are told that judgment can't come until the final martyr. They judgment starts with the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal. And very shortly after that in John's vision he saw the raptured church in heaven. Just so you will know, John does not start the 70th week until the 7th seal. That means Paul's rapture is pretrib or pre-70th week.

If Paul's rapture really was "on the last day" or the Day Jesus returns, then the church would miss their own marriage ceremony. That will take place in heaven before Jesus descends to Armageddon. Posttribbers have never solved this problem. Oh, some try by moving the marriage and supper to the earth! Just know, ANY rearranging of Revelation to fit some theory will be proven wrong.

There WILL BE a resurrection on the last day of the 70th week - some unknown time before Jesus descends. It will be the resurrection for the Old Testament saints plus those murdered during the days of GT, plus the Two Witnesses. But this resurrection will not include Paul's rapture.

Paul makes it clear that HIS rapture will come just before wrath. At at time when people are saying "peace and safety" SUDDENLY, and without warning the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves. Oh, there will be a shout and a trumpet blast, but chances are good the world will only hear thunder.

Then, Paul gives us a paradigm: He shows us two different groups that will get two different results at the same moment in time, a split second after the dead in Christ has risen:

1. Those living in Christ will get "salvation" by being caught up and then they "get to live forever with Him." (So shall we ever be with the Lord.)
2. At that same moment in time, as those NOT "in Christ" get "sudden destruction." Paul then speaks of God not setting any appointments for His church with HIs wrath - just as if this "sudden destruction" was tied to wrath and the Day of the Lord. I think Paul is telling us the sudden destruction IS the start of God's wrath and the start of the DAY.

Therefore, Paul teaches us that the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY. If we look in Revelation for the start of the DAY, we find it at the 6th seal, BEFORE ANY PART of the 70th week. My point is, God and Paul are pretrib.

Now, if you WANT to be left behind, I think God gives us the desires of our heart.
 

lamad

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Your claim in response is Dishonest, as pinocchio's nose grows.

You have been refuted at every corner regarding your claim of a pre-trib rapture

Rev 14 (Sickle Harvest) that you claim is a pre-trib rapture, is nothing more than the second coming lass day resurrection, with a parallel teaching in the wheat tares harvest by the Angel's, that takes place at the end of the world

Post Trib, (Immediately After The Tribulation)

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
You have been refuted at every corner regarding your claim of a pre-trib rapture
It is amazing how posttribbers THINK they "refute" everyone that disagrees with them.

The truth is, Posttribbers are going to miss the marriage and supper. They will have NO WAY to get to heaven.
 

lamad

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The church raptures after the great tribulation. Sorry, I know you don't like that, but that's what the Bible says.

After the falling away of the church and man of sin revealed the day of Christ and our gathering to Him will come.

By the time the the anti-Christ is revealed he will already be proclaiming himself to be God. The mark of the beast will already be in effect. The great tribulation will already be happening before the rapture happens.

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
You have missed the truth on EVERY POINT!
I will make a guess that you cannot pinpoint the real time of the rapture OR the 70th week correctly in Revelation...yet you think you know. I hope you can prove me wrong.


By the time the the anti-Christ is revealed he will already be proclaiming himself to be God.
No, NOT! That is HOW He is revealed. Up until that time, no one will know who the Beast will be. But when the man of sin declares He is God, then all will know: He has just been revealed.

AFTER He is revealed, He will immediately take down three kings out of 10, which will leave 7, and will then be the 8th king.

The mark of the beast will already be in effect No, NOT! When John saw the Beast rise up out of the water, that tells us he has just been revealed. But at that time NO MARK and NO IMAGE. Next the FP has to show up. It will be the FP that gets the mark and image created, so they will come AFTER the man of sin is revealed.

The great tribulation will already be happening before the rapture happens.
No, NOT! The days of GT will be God's wrath and in the best passage on the rapture, 1 Thes 4 & 5, Paul is clear that God will set NO appointments with His wrath for His church. By the way, John saw the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7, LONG before the days of GT begin late in chapter 14.

However, if you wish to be left behind, I think God will honor your faith and you can certainly remain behind and be overcome. You would then be in that group in the first verses of chapter 15.
 

Truth7t7

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May 19, 2020
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You can pull verses out of their context and make up any doctrine. We shouldn't form doctrine from isolated verses (taking the 1 Thes. 4 passage by itself) but rather by all the end times scriptures.

If we take Paul's rapture verse and see where it fits in John's Revelation narrative, it fits perfectly between the 5th and 6th seal. The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age. They are told that judgment can't come until the final martyr. They judgment starts with the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal. And very shortly after that in John's vision he saw the raptured church in heaven. Just so you will know, John does not start the 70th week until the 7th seal. That means Paul's rapture is pretrib or pre-70th week.

If Paul's rapture really was "on the last day" or the Day Jesus returns, then the church would miss their own marriage ceremony. That will take place in heaven before Jesus descends to Armageddon. Posttribbers have never solved this problem. Oh, some try by moving the marriage and supper to the earth! Just know, ANY rearranging of Revelation to fit some theory will be proven wrong.

There WILL BE a resurrection on the last day of the 70th week - some unknown time before Jesus descends. It will be the resurrection for the Old Testament saints plus those murdered during the days of GT, plus the Two Witnesses. But this resurrection will not include Paul's rapture.

Paul makes it clear that HIS rapture will come just before wrath. At at time when people are saying "peace and safety" SUDDENLY, and without warning the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves. Oh, there will be a shout and a trumpet blast, but chances are good the world will only hear thunder.

Then, Paul gives us a paradigm: He shows us two different groups that will get two different results at the same moment in time, a split second after the dead in Christ has risen:

1. Those living in Christ will get "salvation" by being caught up and then they "get to live forever with Him." (So shall we ever be with the Lord.)
2. At that same moment in time, as those NOT "in Christ" get "sudden destruction." Paul then speaks of God not setting any appointments for His church with HIs wrath - just as if this "sudden destruction" was tied to wrath and the Day of the Lord. I think Paul is telling us the sudden destruction IS the start of God's wrath and the start of the DAY.

Therefore, Paul teaches us that the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY. If we look in Revelation for the start of the DAY, we find it at the 6th seal, BEFORE ANY PART of the 70th week. My point is, God and Paul are pretrib.

Now, if you WANT to be left behind, I think God gives us the desires of our heart.
There Is No Pre-Trib Rapture In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Below, Who Do You Think Your Kidding :giggle:

The main scripture used by supporters of the Pre-Trib Rapture teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture, don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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You have missed the truth on EVERY POINT!
I will make a guess that you cannot pinpoint the real time of the rapture OR the 70th week correctly in Revelation...yet you think you know. I hope you can prove me wrong.


By the time the the anti-Christ is revealed he will already be proclaiming himself to be God. No, NOT! That is HOW He is revealed. Up until that time, no one will know who the Beast will be. But when the man of sin declares He is God, then all will know: He has just been revealed.

AFTER He is revealed, He will immediately take down three kings out of 10, which will leave 7, and will then be the 8th king.

The mark of the beast will already be in effect No, NOT! When John saw the Beast rise up out of the water, that tells us he has just been revealed. But at that time NO MARK and NO IMAGE. Next the FP has to show up. It will be the FP that gets the mark and image created, so they will come AFTER the man of sin is revealed.

The great tribulation will already be happening before the rapture happens. No, NOT! The days of GT will be God's wrath and in the best passage on the rapture, 1 Thes 4 & 5, Paul is clear that God will set NO appointments with His wrath for His church. By the way, John saw the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7, LONG before the days of GT begin late in chapter 14.

However, if you wish to be left behind, I think God will honor your faith and you can certainly remain behind and be overcome. You would then be in that group in the first verses of chapter 15.
There is no mystery, the Resurrection and (Catching Up/Rapture) Takes Place At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ, On The (Last Day) As Seen Below.

The main scripture used by supporters of the Pre-Trib Rapture teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture, don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
113
You have been refuted at every corner regarding your claim of a pre-trib rapture
It is amazing how posttribbers THINK they "refute" everyone that disagrees with them.

The truth is, Posttribbers are going to miss the marriage and supper. They will have NO WAY to get to heaven.
Truth is, the marriage supper takes place "After" the second coming in fire and final judgement, in the (Eternal Kingdom) in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
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You have missed the truth on EVERY POINT!
I will make a guess that you cannot pinpoint the real time of the rapture OR the 70th week correctly in Revelation...yet you think you know. I hope you can prove me wrong.


By the time the the anti-Christ is revealed he will already be proclaiming himself to be God. No, NOT! That is HOW He is revealed. Up until that time, no one will know who the Beast will be. But when the man of sin declares He is God, then all will know: He has just been revealed.

AFTER He is revealed, He will immediately take down three kings out of 10, which will leave 7, and will then be the 8th king.

The mark of the beast will already be in effect No, NOT! When John saw the Beast rise up out of the water, that tells us he has just been revealed. But at that time NO MARK and NO IMAGE. Next the FP has to show up. It will be the FP that gets the mark and image created, so they will come AFTER the man of sin is revealed.

The great tribulation will already be happening before the rapture happens. No, NOT! The days of GT will be God's wrath and in the best passage on the rapture, 1 Thes 4 & 5, Paul is clear that God will set NO appointments with His wrath for His church. By the way, John saw the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7, LONG before the days of GT begin late in chapter 14.

However, if you wish to be left behind, I think God will honor your faith and you can certainly remain behind and be overcome. You would then be in that group in the first verses of chapter 15.
I'm afraid you have misunderstood when Gods wrath begins and Ends. Jesus told us plainly:

Matthew 24:29
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

Notice that in the 6th seal, what Jesus said would happen "immediately after the tribulation of those days" happens in the 6th seal:

Revelation 6:12-17
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Also, plainly notice that this is when the day of Gods wrath comes. Jesus said this occurs immediately after the tribulation, meanjng the great tribulation is not God's wrath.

Don't fall into the false assumption that Revelation is written sequentially in neat chronological order. This is not the case as I just proved to you. There are numerous parallel teachings in Revelation.

If that isn't plain enough, Revelation 12:12 says the great tribulation is Satan's wrath.

Think about this for a moment before you reply: do you think God's wrath is setting up an anti-Christ, false prophet, mark of the beast, and the persecution of God's elect? Does that sound like God to you?

A study of eschatology plainly reveals the great tribulation is not from God, but He responds to it using His power, two witnesses, and the return of Christ.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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Howdy FreeGrace2. I can PROVE IT to someone WHO is Born Again.

Genuine FAITH is in the HEART, and NOT in what lies between your EARS.

NO POINT in Proving it to someone who is not Born Again.



Howdy FreeGrace2,

I can Prove the beyond a shadow of a doubt, the rapture to anybody that is Born Again, without that it is a excercise in futility. Here is why:

1 Cor. 2:6-16, NIV
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”[b]—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c]

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”[d]
But we have the mind of Christ.



That is truly what I BELIEVE IN MY HEART, and NOTHING CAN SWAY ME from that TRUTH.
Does this mean you believe that another person "cannot possibly be born-again" if they disagree with you?


Does this mean you believe that a person "cannot possibly be in error" if they are born-again?