50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[FreeGrace2]

Absolutely said:
part of my view is direct revelation.
Part is illumination by the Holy Spirit
Part is rightly dividing the word through study

Part is letting scripture interpret scripture.

You've been blessed with a divine revelation that you're saying is Biblical and then can't use scripture to back it up? 🚩

Just beautiful!

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
If you did, you you would know that there are no verses or passages that make clear the idea that Jesus comes "in the clouds", then resurrects the bodies of all dead saints, then changes all living saints, and then takes them all up to heaven.

Are you SURE of this? I was sure there was a verse about clouds.

Why oh why do you focus on the clouds only? Is that where your head is?

The POINT was about Jesus taking raptured believers back up to heaven. Please the WHOLE post before replying.

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air (and in the clouds]."

If this was a reference to a pre-trib event, WHY in the world didn't Paul just mention it? It would have been so easy to do that.

In fact, NONE of the rapture verses mentions going to heaven. But that is the pre-trib view of the rapture.

As for taking the church back to heaven, why do you dis John 14? Where did Jesus go? He went to heaven. Therefore the homes He has prepared are in heaven just as that passage tells us. [/QUOTE[]
To be clear, I NEVER "dissed" John 14. That would be blasphemy. I DID dis the pre-trib views about how it supports a pre-trib view.

But it doesn't at all. It's very easily explained. Jesus was speaking BEFORE His own crucifixion to living human beings. And 3 days AFTER His crucifixion He FULFILLED His promise of "coming back".

Just read post 1199. I thoroughly explained all the John 14 verses that DW gave me.

Where is Jesus from the sixth seal in chapter 6 to His coming in chapter 19?

Glad you asked. Heaven, obviously.

In fact,
New International Version
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Most translations say basically the same thing. However, consider these translations:

New Living Translation
For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Berean Study Bible
Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets.

Amplified Bible
whom heaven must keep until the time for the [complete] restoration of all things about which God promised through the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Contemporary English Version
But Jesus must stay in heaven until God makes all things new, just as his holy prophets promised long ago.

Good News Translation
He must remain in heaven until the time comes for all things to be made new, as God announced through his holy prophets of long ago.

International Standard Version
He must remain in heaven until the time of universal restitution, which God announced long ago through the voice of his holy prophets.

OK, 7 out of about 28 translations at biblehub.com. Here's the point. The Greek word translated "receive" means to receive and retain, to contain.

So all 7 of these translations DID get the meaning RIGHT.

iow, Jesus STAYS in heaven until the restoration of all things. At the Second Advent is when Jesus comes back and restores all things.



Since He is not on earth, He must be in heaven - and where He is there are we to be also. Why is this so difficult for you to believe?

Question: have you ever watched a Jet plane take off, climb, then disappear in a cloud? How then can "every eye see" Jesus when he is hidden in a cloud? Did you ever at least think that perhaps these are two different comings? Untold millions of believers believe this, so you would not be alone.

Did you ever stop to wonder what this might cost you if you are wrong?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

In fact, NONE of the rapture verses mentions going to heaven. But that is the pre-trib view of the rapture.

FreeGrace2 said:
Right. Like "supplying a text that mentions the "Trinity". Really? Don't you have a better argument?

"Really? Don't you have a better argument?"

Yuh...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesus wasn't even speaking about the Second Advent. He was referring CLEARLY to 3 days after His crucifixion.

AND........ THAT was basically my point about y'all's "Heb9:28" verse... that it doesn't say what *you* think it is saying: [that] "His FIRST ADVENT before the Cross... and then [Heb9:28-->] His SECOND ADVENT when He's OPENLY MANIFEST [His 'MANIFESTATION'] as 'King of kings and Lord of lords BEFORE ALL"... which is what you said Heb9:28 means (simply b/c that text uses the word "SECOND" / "A SECOND TIME" [esp if you leave off the rest of the sentence, there]).


My long (LINKed) post explains WHY I am NOT convinced of your viewpoint on that particular verse

(meaning, that y'all think Heb9:28 can be used as a "SECOND ADVENT" text and proof... IOW, the idea that He *cannot* come "to the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" [for "His BODY" ONLY] at a distinct time-slot from the Rev19 'OPENLY MANIFEST' / 'MANIFESTATION' [BEFORE ALL (every eye!)] time-slot]).




[pretty much the same reason for the other thing at top not saying anything about it either, but for slightly different *reasons*/context... ]

Jesus wasn't even speaking about the Second Advent.

...in Heb9:28... yeah, I know... that's "what I said"

 

[Runningman]

AND........ THAT was basically my point about y'all's "Heb9:28" verse... that it doesn't say what *you* think it is saying: [that] "His FIRST ADVENT before the Cross... and then [Heb9:28-->] His SECOND ADVENT when He's OPENLY MANIFEST [His 'MANIFESTATION'] as 'King of kings and Lord of lords BEFORE ALL"... which is what you said Heb9:28 means (simply b/c that text uses the word "SECOND" / "A SECOND TIME" [esp if you leave off the rest of the sentence, there]).


My long (LINKed) post explains WHY I am NOT convinced of your viewpoint on that particular verse

(meaning, that y'all think Heb9:28 can be used as a "SECOND ADVENT" text and proof... IOW, the idea that He *cannot* come "to the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" [for "His BODY" ONLY] at a distinct time-slot from the Rev19 'OPENLY MANIFEST' / 'MANIFESTATION' [BEFORE ALL (every eye!)] time-slot]).




[pretty much the same reason for the other thing at top not saying anything about it either, but for slightly different *reasons*/context... ]



...in Heb9:28... yeah, I know... that's "what I said"

Taking place after His resurrection, notice in Matthew 25 in the parable of the 10 virgins (v. 1-13) and the sheep and goats judgement (v. 31-46) Jesus describes a single return prior to His ascension. That's the second advent.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Taking place after His resurrection, notice in Matthew 25 in the parable of the 10 virgins (v. 1-13) and the sheep and goats judgement (v. 31-46) Jesus describes a single return prior to His ascension. That's the second advent.

And I've explained over and over that these ^ passages speak of (what WE call) His Second coming to the earth (FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age [aka 'the wedding FEAST/SUPPER,' aka 'the kingdom OF THE heavenS [on the earth],' aka 'the age [SINGULAR] to come,' etc], which commences upon His "RETURN" there [that is, TO THE EARTH, Rev19 (& Lk12:36 )]).

NONE of those passages speak of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event.

In Matt24-25, Jesus is addressing their Q of Him in Matt24:3, which was BASED ON what He had ALREADY SPOKEN to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (re: 'the end [singular] of the age [singular]' [which is FOLLOWED BY 'the age [singular] TO COME' Matt12:32]... so, when the angels will 'REAP'... by their gathering "OUT" all things that offend, and "gather ye *FIRST* the TARES" etc.... <--but THAT is in the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE from that of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event/circumstances, see!! )

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^

commences upon His "RETURN" there [that is, TO THE EARTH, Rev19 (& Lk12:36 )]).

Luke 12:36 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom"!) ... THEN the meal [G347], vv.37-38,40,etc (and its parallels)

 

[lamad]

FreeGrace2 said:
If you did, you you would know that there are no verses or passages that make clear the idea that Jesus comes "in the clouds", then resurrects the bodies of all dead saints, then changes all living saints, and then takes them all up to heaven.

Why oh why do you focus on the clouds only? Is that where your head is?

The POINT was about Jesus taking raptured believers back up to heaven. Please the WHOLE post before replying.


If this was a reference to a pre-trib event, WHY in the world didn't Paul just mention it? It would have been so easy to do that.

In fact, NONE of the rapture verses mentions going to heaven. But that is the pre-trib view of the rapture.

NONE? Are you SURE? What about John 14?

"I go" WHERE did Jesus Go? There are over a dozen verses that tell us Jesus returned to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. Do you DOUBT Jesus returned to heaven. Perhaps you think the mansions He built are on Orion? (I am on purpose being facetious.)

I often think some people read this passage like this:

2 In my Father's house [in heaven] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to [heaven to] prepare a place for you [in heaven].
3 And if I go [to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again [to the air], and receive you unto myself [in the air]; that where I am [going, to the earth], there [on the earth] ye may be also.

Is this really the intent of the author here? How silly it would be for Jesus to go to heaven to prepare places (abodes, mansions) for us, and then forget them and come to earth.

No, the intent of the author is this:

2 In my Father's house [in heaven] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to [heaven to] prepare a place for you [in heaven]. 3 And if I go [to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again [to the air], and receive you unto myself [in the air]; that where I am [BACK IN HEAVEN], there [in heaven] ye may be also.

In Revelation the time of the 70th week is covered from chapter 8 to chapter 16. Where is Jesus in all these chapters? He is in heaven. He is in heaven in chapter 19 for the marriage and supper and so are the saints. (Posttribbers cannot get there for the marriage. They are forced to rearrange Revelation to fit their theory.)

Next, where is the large crowd? IN HEAVEN. When? PRETRIB!

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Where are they? In heaven. Where is this in John's narrative? Before he begins the 70th week. It is between the 6th and 7th seal. The 6th seal is the start of wrath, and the 7th seal the start of the 70th week. They are in heaven and arrived there by way of 1 Thes. 4 and John 14. Where did this group come from? They came one at a time out of the church age, as each one heard the gospel and was born again. In this case, the church age is "great" because it is 2000 years or tribulation.

Didn't Paul write, "behold I show you a mystery...? It was about those alive being suddenly caught up at the resurrection. If that was a mystery shown to Paul, doesn't that mean NO ONE ELSE KNEW IT until they read it from Paul? Why then look to other books for timing on the rapture? Rather, read Paul! He gives us timing: His rapture is just before wrath as proven by 1 Thes. chapter 5 where both Wrath and the Day of the Lord are written. Paul makes the rapture and the Day of the Lord as back to back events with no time between. This leads me to believe the rapture triggers the DAY. Friends, this gives us TIMING information. All we need do for timing is find when in Revelation the Day of the Lord begins, and we have rapture timing. Did you notice that the raptured church was seen in heaven JUST AFTER that?

 

[lamad]

FreeGrace2 said:
If you did, you you would know that there are no verses or passages that make clear the idea that Jesus comes "in the clouds", then resurrects the bodies of all dead saints, then changes all living saints, and then takes them all up to heaven.

Why oh why do you focus on the clouds only? Is that where your head is?
.

Why did you not admit you were mistaken about the clouds?

 

[VCO]

FreeGrace2 said:
A Pre-Trib rapture is found no place in scripture, a false teaching.

Show me ANY verse that says Jesus raptures living believers (gathering up) and then TAKES THEM UP TO HEAVEN.

. . .
Ha. You're just laughing at yourself, since Matt 25:13 DOES NOT SAY that Jesus takes raptured believers back up to heaven, no matter HOW MANY TIMES you quote the verse.

So you see, you failed to refute my statement that there are no verses that tell us that Jesus takes raptured believers back up to heaven.

You may want to get that bullet hole in your foot looked at and taken care of. [END QUOTE]



2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
3 First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
4 saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”


Mat. 25:13 The lesson, Jesus said, was to watch, because the day and hour of His coming are unknown. Believers should live as if the Lord might come at any moment. Are our lamps trimmed and filled with oil, for our Bridegroom?
Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.



25:1-13. When Christ returns in glory, further separations will occur, as indicated by the Parable of the 10 Virgins. While various interpretations have been given to this parable, it seems best to understand it as a judgment on living Jews soon after the Lord's return in glory. The context clearly points to that event (24:3,14,27,30,39,44,51). The judgment of the Gentiles (sheep and goats) will occur when the Lord returns (25:31-46). Also at His glorious return, Israel will be judged as a nation (Ezek. 20:33-44; Zech. 13:1).
.....Israel therefore is pictured as 10 virgins who are awaiting the return of the bridegroom. In wedding customs in Jesus' day, the bridegroom would return from the house of the bride in a procession leading to his own home where a wedding banquet would be enjoyed. In Jesus' parable, He as King will return from heaven with His bride, the church, in order to enter into the Millennium. The Jews in the Tribulation will be some of the invited guests privileged to share in the feast.
.....But preparation is necessary. In the parable, five of the virgins had made adequate preparation for they possessed the necessary lamps and extra oil in jars (Matt. 25:4). Five others had lamps but no extra oil. At midnight... the bridegroom arrived. The lamps of the five virgins without extra oil were going out. So they had to go searching for oil and missed the arrival of the bridegroom. When they returned and found the wedding feast in progress, they sought admission but were denied (vv. 10-12).
.....Israel in the Tribulation will know that Jesus' coming is near, but not all will be spiritually prepared for it. His coming will be sudden, when it is not expected (24:27, 39, 50). Though this passage does not specifically interpret the meaning of the oil, many commentators see it as representing the Holy Spirit and His work in salvation. Salvation is more than mere profession for it involves regeneration by the Holy Spirit. Those who will merely profess to be saved, and do not actually possess the Spirit, will be excluded from the feast, that is, the kingdom. Those who fail to be ready when the King comes, cannot enter His kingdom. Since the day and hour of His return are unknown, believers in the Tribulation should keep watch (grēgoreite), that is, be alert and prepared (cf. 24:42).
The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

 

[Runningman]

And I've explained over and over that these ^ passages speak of (what WE call) His Second coming to the earth (FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age [aka 'the wedding FEAST/SUPPER,' aka 'the kingdom OF THE heavenS [on the earth],' aka 'the age [SINGULAR] to come,' etc], which commences upon His "RETURN" there [that is, TO THE EARTH, Rev19 (& Lk12:36 )]).

NONE of those passages speak of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event.

In Matt24-25, Jesus is addressing their Q of Him in Matt24:3, which was BASED ON what He had ALREADY SPOKEN to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (re: 'the end [singular] of the age [singular]' [which is FOLLOWED BY 'the age [singular] TO COME' Matt12:32]... so, when the angels will 'REAP'... by their gathering "OUT" all things that offend, and "gather ye *FIRST* the TARES" etc.... <--but THAT is in the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE from that of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event/circumstances, see!! )

I'm hoping you'll make the broader connection that when Jesus returns a lot of things happen. He doesn't need to mention the rapture in the air in Matthew 25.

What you're assuming is that when Jesus comes for His bride that it isn't the rapture. It could very well be since the church (His bride) are gathered to Himself in the rapture. It's describing the same concept using different imagery, but the end goal is the same: He comes for His bride by taking them in a rapture.

In scripture there isn't a single page with all of the things that happen. You have to study all of the scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
In fact, NONE of the rapture verses mentions going to heaven. But that is the pre-trib view of the rapture.
FreeGrace2 said:
Right. Like "supplying a text that mentions the "Trinity". Really? Don't you have a better argument?

"Really? Don't you have a better argument?"
Yuh...

How funny! Are you aware that there are many verses that describe The Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God? That is what proves that there is a Trinity.

However, there is NOTHING that supports a pre-trib rapture with a trip up to heaven.

So, while you thought you had me, you weren't even close.

The Trinity is PROVABLE in Scripture.

A pre-trib rapture back up to heaven is NOT.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus wasn't even speaking about the Second Advent. He was referring CLEARLY to 3 days after His crucifixion.

AND........ THAT was basically my point about y'all's "Heb9:28" verse...

I repeat; your posts are so very hard to follow, what with all your emotional bolds, underlines, brackets, arrows, etc.

that it doesn't say what *you* think it is saying: [that] "His FIRST ADVENT before the Cross... and then [Heb9:28-->] His SECOND ADVENT when He's OPENLY MANIFEST [His 'MANIFESTATION'] as 'King of kings and Lord of lords BEFORE ALL"... which is what you said Heb9:28 means (simply b/c that text uses the word "SECOND" / "A SECOND TIME" [esp if you leave off the rest of the sentence, there]).

Just read your own paragraph above to see what I mean.

My long (LINKed) post explains WHY I am NOT convinced of your viewpoint on that particular verse

So?

(meaning, that y'all think Heb9:28 can be used as a "SECOND ADVENT" text and proof... IOW, the idea that He *cannot* come "to the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" [for "His BODY" ONLY] at a distinct time-slot from the Rev19 'OPENLY MANIFEST' / 'MANIFESTATION' [BEFORE ALL (every eye!)] time-slot]).

I've never used Heb 9:28 as a second advent verse. So argue with someone else.

My point is about proving that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured saints back up to heaven. Not only is there NO verse that says that, there isn't any context where one can "connect the dots" and come up with that.

Consider this: people have been arguing for many decades that 1 Thess 4:17 is a pre-trib rapture verse, yet there is NO mention of returning to heaven.

So, where to the pre-tribbers get their evidence?

 

[lamad]

Are you kidding? I wasn't speaking about those who WROTE the Scripture, obviously. I was speaking about those NOW who claim "direct revelation". They are quite deluded, and just full of themselves.


Save your breath. You have no idea what the whole issue is by my statement.


Who said, you ask? Again, are you kidding? Didn't you read the last chapter of Revelation?

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

If you think that God is still giving "direct revelation" to certain honored people, you are deluded as well. Scripture is finished. We have all that God intended.

What we need to know is in His Word. Every bit of it.


This doesn't explain the DIFFERENCE between indwelling and filling.


And none of this explains the difference either.


Well, you're quite behind the times. No longer.

Since Acts, people were indwelt with the Spirit by faith.

Acts 10-
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

Recall in Acts 2 that there was NO laying on of hands when the group of believers received the Holy Spirit.

With Acts 11-
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized withwater, but you will be baptized withthe Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

And confirmed by Gal 3-
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

All this to say that you have shown that you do NOT understand the difference between indwelling and filling.

As most of evangelicalism seems not to either. A very sad state of affairs.

I wasn't speaking about those who WROTE the Scripture, obviously. I was speaking about those NOW who claim "direct revelation". Yet we serve a God that is the SAME, Yesterday, today and forever. What has changed? We are still in the church age. Jesus said "my sheep know my voice..." Are you saying you don't know His voice? Why is it so hard to believe the bible? Jesus has not changed. He still speaks. The problem is, many members of the church have hearing problems. Another problem, few in the church today know HOW to activate the Holy Spirit within them as their teacher.

You have no idea what the whole issue is by my statement. I have a good idea. God SPOKE to me, many times about Revelation. I can write word for word what He said. I have done it before. But those that read are often quite like you and just can't believe that God speaks to others but not to them.

Sorry, but What John wrote about adding or subtracting is ONLY for the book of Revelation. The truth is, God is still God and can reveal anything to anyone He chooses. He has never changed. However, if people THINK God will not speak today, they were not hear as long as they think that. Jesus made it clear that He speaks. The truth is, every believer should know the difference between their own spirit man or woman and the voice of our Lord. Many hear their own spirit and imagine it is the Lord, so we get wild theories from people who say "God told me." No, their own spirit told them and they THOUGHT it was God.

What we need to know is in His Word. Every bit of it. This is simply not true. We are to be led by the Spirit. The bible does not tell someone they are to take this certain job, or live in this certain city, and attend this certain church. This is why some of the church question every part of their lives, wondering. All believers need to learn how to hear from the Holy Spirit. Did you not read how the Holy Spirit directed Paul? Often it was by open doors, but sometimes by dreams. They tried to go to Asia, but the Holy Spirit would not allow it. All through Acts people were led by the Holy Spirit. The truth is, it should be the same today.

This doesn't explain the DIFFERENCE between indwelling and filling. It should. Let me "nutshell" it: The Holy Spirit within (indwelling) is what happens when someone is born again: they are sealed by the Holy Spirit inside their human spirit. It (HE) is our inward witness. All the things we learn about the Holy Spirit in John 14 and 16 come from the Holy Spirit within. He is our comforter, and our teacher.

On the other hand, the infilling or baptism in the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit UPON as the anointing. It is for power. It comes AFTER one is born again (in the NT. In the OT the Holy Spirit came upon the prophet, priest or king.)

Well, you're quite behind the times. No longer. You just don't know! Paul laid hands on the Ephesians in Acts 19. It happens around the world today with the laying on of hands. A few years ago in an underground church in China, I taught about the Holy Spirit infilling, or baptism, then invited people to the front to be filled. Ten people came forward. I laid hands of each one in turn, and every one of them were filled and began speaking in tongues. I had to ask my interpreter: "is that Chinese?" She assured me it was not. As I have said all along, GOD HAS NOT CHANGED. We are still in the same church age as in Acts.

What can we say about Acts 10? It seems the Holy Spirit must have thought Peter was long winded and decided to hurry things along! ;-) But that happened just once in Acts. Paul laid hands on in chapter 19.

All this to say that you have shown that you do NOT understand the difference between indwelling and filling. You have it backwards! It is YOU who don't understand.

I was born again at 7 years old. But knew NOTHING of the Holy Spirit because my Wesleyan church didn't either. But when I was 20 I visited a spirit filled church, and I knew within minutes they had something I did not have: the ANOINTING! Because of the false doctrine I learned from the Wesleyans it took be two or three months to receive, but I did. I have been praying in the Spirit ever since. And singing in the Spirit. What many don't know, praying in the spirit is how one activates the Holy Spirit as the teacher. When people read a passage over and over and over, and meditate on it day and night, while praying much in tongues, one day God will speak and will explain the passage they have been reading.

How can you speak of these things as if you know, when you have never received this baptism and spoke in tongues?

 

[lamad]

FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus wasn't even speaking about the Second Advent. He was referring CLEARLY to 3 days after His crucifixion.

I repeat; your posts are so very hard to follow, what with all your emotional bolds, underlines, brackets, arrows, etc.


Just read your own paragraph above to see what I mean.


So?


I've never used Heb 9:28 as a second advent verse. So argue with someone else.

My point is about proving that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured saints back up to heaven. Not only is there NO verse that says that, there isn't any context where one can "connect the dots" and come up with that.

Consider this: people have been arguing for many decades that 1 Thess 4:17 is a pre-trib rapture verse, yet there is NO mention of returning to heaven.

So, where to the pre-tribbers get their evidence?

Free Grace, this is SO SIMPLE:
He came ONCE or one time or the FIRST time to die on the cross.
The next coming then must be His second coming: RIGHT?

IF at His next coming it is only to the air FOR His saints as Paul tells us, will that then be His second coming?
And if He comes again 7 years after that WITH His saints, will that not be His THIRD coming?

Numbers don't lie. Anyone should be able to count to three.

 

[lamad]

FreeGrace2 said:


My point is about proving that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured saints back up to heaven. Not only is there NO verse that says that, there isn't any context where one can "connect the dots" and come up with that.

Consider this: people have been arguing for many decades that 1 Thess 4:17 is a pre-trib rapture verse, yet there is NO mention of returning to heaven.

So, where to the pre-tribbers get their evidence?

You seem like the blind trying to lead the blind. The truth is, you can't find the verses that says that...probably because you don't WANT to find them. It is not that there are no verses. John 14 is a verse that mentions heaven. Rev. 7 mentions heaven. Why would anyone want to fight against John 14? Do you not WANT to see your mansion?

How many times must I say, 1 Thes chapter 4 HAS NO DESTINATION except to the air. Neither does it have any TIMING information. Pretribbers don't need you to tell us this! We already know it!

But we don't form doctrine from a single verse - or we shouldn't. We get ALL scripture on a topic and then form doctrine. While 1 Thes. 4 (and even chapter 5) has not destination given, John 14 fills in that information. Then John clinches it by seeing the raptured church in heaven in Rev. 7. That is two witnesses that the destination is heaven. Why would anyone need more?

Where do posttribbers get their evidence? There is NO verse that says the rapture is posttrib.

 

[lamad]

FreeGrace2 said:
In fact, NONE of the rapture verses mentions going to heaven. But that is the pre-trib view of the rapture.
FreeGrace2 said:
Right. Like "supplying a text that mentions the "Trinity". Really? Don't you have a better argument?

How funny! Are you aware that there are many verses that describe The Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God? That is what proves that there is a Trinity.

However, there is NOTHING that supports a pre-trib rapture with a trip up to heaven.

So, while you thought you had me, you weren't even close.

The Trinity is PROVABLE in Scripture.

A pre-trib rapture back up to heaven is NOT.

The truth is, it is in scripture but you don't see it, or don't WANT to see it.

 

[lamad]

If you did, you you would know that there are no verses or passages that make clear the idea that Jesus comes "in the clouds", then resurrects the bodies of all dead saints, then changes all living saints, and then takes them all up to heaven.

Those who HAVE checked everything out already know that.

There is no verse or passage that make clear the idea that Jesus comes "in the clouds", then resurrects the bodies of all dead saints, then changes all living saints, then catchings them all up to Him in the clouds, and then brings them right back to the earth.

You KNOW this is true. So why keep repeating it?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"In fact, NONE of the rapture verses mentions going to heaven. But that is the pre-trib view of the rapture."

NONE? Are you SURE? What about John 14?

What about it?

"I go" WHERE did Jesus Go? There are over a dozen verses that tell us Jesus returned to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father.

Oh, good grief. When He died He ascended TO HEAVEN. Duh. But I'm talking ONLY about returning to heaven AFTER rapturing believers. Why aren't you getting my point? I've repeated myself enough.

Do you DOUBT Jesus returned to heaven.

Don't be silly. Of course He did. After His crucifixion. I'm talking about after the rapture.

Perhaps you think the mansions He built are on Orion? (I am on purpose being facetious.)

Gee. Really? Who knew.

I often think some people read this passage like this:

2 In my Father's house [in heaven] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to [heaven to] prepare a place for you [in heaven].
3 And if I go [to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again [to the air], and receive you unto myself [in the air]; that where I am [going, to the earth], there [on the earth] ye may be also.

Is this really the intent of the author here? How silly it would be for Jesus to go to heaven to prepare places (abodes, mansions) for us, and then forget them and come to earth.

I really do think your head IS in the clouds now.

Look, when Jesus SAID that, He hadn't died YET. So He was telling His disciples that AFTER His death, He would COME AGAIN to them, and guess what; He FULFILLED that after His jaunt to Hades.

In Revelation the time of the 70th week is covered from chapter 8 to chapter 16. Where is Jesus in all these chapters? He is in heaven. He is in heaven in chapter 19 for the marriage and supper and so are the saints.

Of course He is. I've NEVER argued otherwise.

Again, the point is about AFTER He raptures believers. Where does He take them? You pre-tribbers claim Jesus takes them to heaven. So where is THAT verse?

(Posttribbers cannot get there for the marriage. They are forced to rearrange Revelation to fit their theory.)

Nonsense. The very wording of certain verses shows what is about to occur, but since Jesus then leaves immediately after everything being made ready, it should be obvious that the wedding occurs ON EARTH after Jesus returns to end the battle of Armageddon and sets up His Kingdom.

Next, where is the large crowd? IN HEAVEN. When? PRETRIB!

If you think that Rev 19 is pre-trib, I think you'v got a reading comprehension problem. By the time we get to ch 19, we've already read about ALL the judgments; seals, trumpets, and bowls. So ch 19 cannot be pre-trib. It's DEFINITELY at the end of the Trib, just before Jesus returns.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Where are they?

The BETTER question is; where are YOU in Rev? Which chapter. You didn't say.

In heaven.

Every believer from Adam forward is in heaven by the time we get to the end of the Trib, so there will be a very big crowd for sure.

Where is this in John's narrative? Before he begins the 70th week.

How do you know that? Prove it from Scripture.

It is between the 6th and 7th seal. The 6th seal is the start of wrath, and the 7th seal the start of the 70th week.

There are nothing more than claims. You need to prove it by either direct verses or connecting the dots which make sense.

They are in heaven and arrived there by way of 1 Thes. 4 and John 14.

See? There you go again, twisting 1 Thess 4 into a U-turn to heaven. But it simply isn't there. So QUIT abusing 1 Thess 4 as a pre-trib rapture verse.

I will tell you something, though. If there was going to be a pre-trib rapture, 1 Thess 4 would have been the PERFECT place to say it.

Yet, NO rapture verse says anything about going to heaven.

Where did this group come from? They came one at a time out of the church age, as each one heard the gospel and was born again. In this case, the church age is "great" because it is 2000 years or tribulation.

No, at least 4 thousand years, since ALL believers who have died are IN heaven.

Didn't Paul write, "behold I show you a mystery...? It was about those alive being suddenly caught up at the resurrection. If that was a mystery shown to Paul, doesn't that mean NO ONE ELSE KNEW IT until they read it from Paul? Why then look to other books for timing on the rapture?

OK, I'm geting very tired of your speculations. If Paul gave us a "timing" for the rapture, where is it? Time to put your money where your mouth is.

Rather, read Paul! He gives us timing: His rapture is just before wrath as proven by 1 Thes. chapter 5 where both Wrath and the Day of the Lord are written. Paul makes the rapture and the Day of the Lord as back to back events with no time between.

The better verse to learn the order of things BY PAUL is 2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

So, I ASK you, brother, what is the "coming of the Lord", other than the Second Advent?

Then Paul mentions "our being gathered to Him". How can that be anything other than what 1 Thess 4:17 is about?

So, v.1 has the Second Advent just before the rapture (gathering). It couldn't be more clear.

This leads me to believe the rapture triggers the DAY.

You have been led astray. Paul gave us the timing in 2 Thess 2:1.

Friends, this gives us TIMING information. All we need do for timing is find when in Revelation the Day of the Lord begins, and we have rapture timing.

2 Thess 2:1 gives us the timing.

Did you notice that the raptured church was seen in heaven JUST AFTER that?

Show me the verse. I don't believe you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
If you did, you you would know that there are no verses or passages that make clear the idea that Jesus comes "in the clouds", then resurrects the bodies of all dead saints, then changes all living saints, and then takes them all up to heaven.

Why oh why do you focus on the clouds only? Is that where your head is?

Why did you not admit you were mistaken about the clouds?

How was I mistaken about the clouds? Please explain.

My point wasn't about clouds. It was about any verse that tells us plainly that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven.