Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[TheDivineWatermark]

Truly truly Matt 24 is beautifully and perfectly integrated into the pre-trib rapture. Simply stated....we aren't in that chapter....at all.

Right.



And like Peter later said to "ye men of Israel," ... "For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up [that is, to a position of prominence] to you a Prophet like me out from your brothers. You will listen to Him in all things, as many as He might say to you."

Meaning, Jesus, as A PROPHET in His earthly ministry before His death, had the ability to "prophesy".



[you don't know how many people I've talked with, who don't believe He had that capacity ]

 

[lamad]

The day of Christ mentioned in the first chapter, when Jesus comes, gives the church rest, executes vengence on them that believe not, when he comes to be glorified in the saints cannot happen until there first be a departing/apostacy, and the man of sin be revealed.

The church is here when the day of Christ happens. Do you have any evidence that Jesus comes back before Jesus comes back?

Yes, indeed I do.

He comes back as shown in Rev. 19 and in the verse you mentioned.
But BEFORE that, He comes to the air as in 1 Thes. 4 and catches up His bride.
So He comes back FOR US then comes back WITH us.

 

[lamad]

Right.



And like Peter later said to "ye men of Israel," ... "For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up [that is, to a position of prominence] to you a Prophet like me out from your brothers. You will listen to Him in all things, as many as He might say to you."

Meaning, Jesus, as A PROPHET in His earthly ministry before His death, had the ability to "prophesy".



[you don't know how many people I've talked with, who don't believe He had that capacity ]

Since it is written that He only spoke what He heard the Father say, then all of His sayings were prophecy!

 

[Truth7t7]

Truly truly Matt 24 is beautifully and perfectly integrated into the pre-trib rapture. Simply stated....we aren't in that chapter....at all.

Your claim is false, again and again

Luke Chapter 21 is a parallel reading of Matthew Chapter 24, it's the Church Present, those persecuted for the name of Jesus Christ, "Christians" who will be present during the tribulation, and be eyewitnesses to the Second Coming

How long will you resist the very simple words of Gods truth below?

"Christians" (Ye Shall Be Hated Of All Men For My Name's Sake) Jesus Christ

(Ye Shall See Jerusalem Compassed With Armies)

(They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming)

(Lift Up Your Heads; For Your Redemption Draweth Nigh)

Luke 21:17-28KJV
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[Runningman]

Truly truly Matt 24 is beautifully and perfectly integrated into the pre-trib rapture. Simply stated....we aren't in that chapter....at all.

The end times chronological order Jesus lays out is:
1. period of birth pains
2. the great tribulation
3. the return of Jesus and the rapture
4. God's wrath like the flood in the days of Noah.

Matthew 24:3(KJV) - the disciples ask Jesus what the sign of His coming and the end of the world.

Matthew 24:4-14 - Jesus describes the signs of the beginning of birth pains.

Matthew 24:15-25 - Jesus describes the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:26-31 - Jesus says He returns after the tribulation to gather His elect.

Matthew 24:32-35 -the lesson of the fig tree.

Matthew 24:36-51 - Jesus compares His return the the flood in the days of Noah and expounds a little more on how the wicked and righteous are dealt with (one taken another left) then encourages to keep watch for His return.

 

[Truth7t7]

The end times chronological order Jesus lays out is:
1. period of birth pains
2. the great tribulation
3. the return of Jesus and the rapture
4. God's wrath like the flood in the days of Noah.

Matthew 24:3(KJV) - the disciples ask Jesus what the sign of His coming and the end of the world.

Matthew 24:4-14 - Jesus describes the signs of the beginning of birth pains.

Matthew 24:15-25 - Jesus describes the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:26-31 - Jesus says He returns after the tribulation to gather His elect.

Matthew 24:32-35 -the lesson of the fig tree.

Matthew 24:36-51 - Jesus compares His return the the flood in the days of Noah and expounds a little more on how the wicked and righteous are dealt with (one taken another left) then encourages to keep watch for His return.

I see the beginning of birth pains in the time the (Two Witnesses) are raised to heaven, as the 3rd woe comes upon the earth, the final hours of earth's existence, near the battle of Armageddon, as the Nations are gathered to (The Day Of The Lord)

(Birth Pains)

Isaiah 13:4-13KJV
4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

(Birth Pains)

Luke 21:25-26KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

(Birth Pains)

Revelation 6:15-17KJV
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[lamad]

The end times chronological order Jesus lays out is:
1. period of birth pains
2. the great tribulation
3. the return of Jesus and the rapture
4. God's wrath like the flood in the days of Noah.

Matthew 24:3(KJV) - the disciples ask Jesus what the sign of His coming and the end of the world.

Matthew 24:4-14 - Jesus describes the signs of the beginning of birth pains.

Matthew 24:15-25 - Jesus describes the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:26-31 - Jesus says He returns after the tribulation to gather His elect.

Matthew 24:32-35 -the lesson of the fig tree.

Matthew 24:36-51 - Jesus compares His return the the flood in the days of Noah and expounds a little more on how the wicked and righteous are dealt with (one taken another left) then encourages to keep watch for His return.

You were doing well until you wrote in "the rapture' after the GT. That is myth.

 

[Runningman]

I see the beginning of birth pains in the time the (Two Witnesses) are raised to heaven, as the 3rd woe comes upon the earth, the final hours of earth's existence, near the battle of Armageddon, as the Nations are gathered to (The Day Of The Lord)

(Birth Pains)

Isaiah 13:4-13KJV
4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

(Birth Pains)

Luke 21:25-26KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

(Birth Pains)

Revelation 6:15-17KJV
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I think the 6th seal in Revelation 6 correlates to what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29 and what Peter said Acts 2:20: these things happen just before He comes back:

Matthew 24:29
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Acts 2:20
20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Revelation 6:12
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 

[Truth7t7]

You were doing well until you wrote in "the rapture' after the GT. That is myth.

It's your pre-trib rapture that is a myth, a false teaching of John N Darby & Adulterer C.I. Scofield, in his 1909 reference bible, known as Dispensationalism

Pre-Tribbers do nothing more than take the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, and falsely claim it's a pre-trib rapture, it's that simple

 

[lamad]

I think the 6th seal in Revelation 6 correlates to what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29 and what Peter said Acts 2:20: these things happen just before He comes back:

Matthew 24:29
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Acts 2:20
20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Revelation 6:12
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Wrong: the signs at the 6th seal - the sign for the coming Day of th eLord, come over 7 years before the signs after the trib - the sign for HIS coming to Armageddon. And the signs are different. At the 6th seal both the sun and moon are SEEN. The sign after the trib for His coming is total darkness. The sun, the moon, and the stars are not seen in the darkness.

 

[Runningman]

You were doing well until you wrote in "the rapture' after the GT. That is myth.

Wrong: the signs at the 6th seal - the sign for the coming Day of th eLord, come over 7 years before the signs after the trib - the sign for HIS coming to Armageddon. And the signs are different. At the 6th seal both the sun and moon are SEEN. The sign after the trib for His coming is total darkness. The sun, the moon, and the stars are not seen in the darkness.

You seem to just disagree with everything despite evidence being shown to you otherwise.

You also haven't provided anything that undoes any of what I just showed you. Nor provided a rebuttal on what I just showed you. Are you sure you want to have a discussion or do you just want to debate anything I say?

 

[lamad]

You seem to just disagree with everything despite evidence being shown to you otherwise.

You also haven't provided anything that undoes any of what I just showed you. Nor provided a rebuttal on what I just showed you. Are you sure you want to have a discussion or do you just want to debate anything I say?

I will agree with anything that agrees with the written word..

The 6th seal is in chapter 6 of Revelation. "After the trib" would be after the 16th chapter. That fact alone should be enough evidence to show that the signs after the trib cannot possibly be the same signs before the trib? TIME will not allow that.

Then when we examine the signs, we find out they are different. Just because you find two verses that mention the sun and the moon is not enough to claim they are speaking of the same event. Beginners might do that.

If you can use scripture to somehow prove they are the same - good. I don't think you can.

Do you believe that a blood red moon is probably a total eclipse of the moon?
Do you believe that the sun appearing black is probably an eclipse of the sun?

 

[Absolutely]

I already pointed out the fact you cannot show scripture that shows a pretrib rapture. You and others that came before you developed interpretations you can 'fit' to different passages. You have no scripture that shows a rapture taking place pretrib. You have some you allegorically interpret to mean pretrib...fit again. There is no reference to a rapture before the tribulation in Matthew 24 and parallel passages. Instead, there is the sign of the Son of Man coming ___after___ the tribulation and the gathering of the elect there. Pretribbers have the coming of the Lord and the 'gathering ' in II Thessalonians 2 refer to different events. Why should anyone believe such a convoluted approach to scripture?

It reminds me of people not believing spiritual gifts, not because of anything specific in the Bible, but because it is not time for those gifts according to their thoughts and theories. Then they try to gather evidence to 'fit' their theory. So someone being sick late in the NT is supposed to be evidence of healing ceasing. There is no evidence for healing ceasing really. There is counter evidence since Paul healed late in Acts and had an infirmity early in his apostolic ministry.

And there are scriptures that do not fit pretrib. Making the coming of our Lord in Matthew 24 posttrib out to be different from the dead being made alive at His coming in I Corinthians 15 is an example.

I already pointed out the fact you cannot show scripture that shows a pretrib rapture. You and others that came before you developed interpretations you can 'fit' to different passages. You have no scripture that shows a rapture taking place pretrib. You have some you allegorically interpret to mean pretrib...fit again. There is no reference to a rapture before the tribulation in Matthew 24 and parallel passages. Instead, there is the sign of the Son of Man coming ___after___ the tribulation and the gathering of the elect there. Pretribbers have the coming of the Lord and the 'gathering ' in II Thessalonians 2 refer to different events. Why should anyone believe such a convoluted approach to scripture?

It reminds me of people not believing spiritual gifts, not because of anything specific in the Bible, but because it is not time for those gifts according to their thoughts and theories. Then they try to gather evidence to 'fit' their theory. So someone being sick late in the NT is supposed to be evidence of healing ceasing. There is no evidence for healing ceasing really. There is counter evidence since Paul healed late in Acts and had an infirmity early in his apostolic ministry.

And there are scriptures that do not fit pretrib. Making the coming of our Lord in Matthew 24 posttrib out to be different from the dead being made alive at His coming in I Corinthians 15 is an example.

Yes i am with you on healing.
I am not cessationist.
I was born again into an amil/ postrib fellowship.

I know several doctrines.

 

[Runningman]

I will agree with anything that agrees with the written word..

The 6th seal is in chapter 6 of Revelation. "After the trib" would be after the 16th chapter. That fact alone should be enough evidence to show that the signs after the trib cannot possibly be the same signs before the trib? TIME will not allow that.

Then when we examine the signs, we find out they are different. Just because you find two verses that mention the sun and the moon is not enough to claim they are speaking of the same event. Beginners might do that.

If you can use scripture to somehow prove they are the same - good. I don't think you can.

Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 both talk about the sun becoming black and the moon darkening and the lesson of the fig tree. It isn't a coincidence. That's proof they're talking about the same thing: the 6th seal.

Matthew 24:29
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6:12-24
12And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

Matthew 24:32
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

These signs in the heavens occur just before Jesus returns according to Matthew 24:29-31 after the tribulation.

Acts 2:20 also confirms this:
20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

You might also want to read up on Isaiah and Joel in regards to this topic. Here are some key verses:

Isaiah 13:10
Isaiah 34:4
Joel 2:10

If that doesn't prove it then feel free to believe whatever you want. I tried to show you.

 

[Guojing]

It's your pre-trib rapture that is a myth, a false teaching of John N Darby & Adulterer C.I. Scofield, in his 1909 reference bible, known as Dispensationalism

Pre-Tribbers do nothing more than take the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, and falsely claim it's a pre-trib rapture, it's that simple

Being a dispensationalist is not necessary for one to believe in pre-trib rapture.

Haven't you realized by now that the people here who are preaching pre-trib rapture, are also the same ones who preach

1. Paul preached the exact same gospel as the others.
2. Everything that belongs to Israel are also ours to claim.
3. The Body of Christ began in the OT.
4. Signs and wonders are still to be expected today

etc etc?

So they cannot be dispensationalists.

 

[presidente]

Being a dispensationalist is not necessary for one to believe in pre-trib rapture.

Haven't you realized by now that the people here who are preaching pre-trib rapture, are also the same ones who preach

1. Paul preached the exact same gospel as the others.
2. Everything that belongs to Israel are also ours to claim.
3. The Body of Christ began in the OT.
4. Signs and wonders are still to be expected today

etc etc?

So they cannot be dispensationalists.

Huh? Many Pentecostals are continuationists and believe the apostles all preached the same Gospel and are dispensationalists. There are varieties of dispensational viewpoints.

 

[Guojing]

Huh? Many Pentecostals are continuationists and believe the apostles all preached the same Gospel and are dispensationalists. There are varieties of dispensational viewpoints.

There is only one that I am aware of here that claims he is a dispensationalist and also insist that Paul preached the exact same gospel as the others.

But then, he has no stand on whether the rapture is pre-trib or post trib, nor whether signs and wonders are still present today.

The others here, Absolutely, civ5, etc has never claim they are dispensationalist. In fact, Absolutely is the first that I have seen that is anti dispensationalism, and yet simultaneously also insist he is pre-trib.

 

[Truth7t7]

There is only one that I am aware of here that claims he is a dispensationalist and also insist that Paul preached the exact same gospel as the others.

But then, he has no stand on whether the rapture is pre-trib or post trib, nor whether signs and wonders are still present today.

The others here, Absolutely, civ5, etc has never claim they are dispensationalist. In fact, Absolutely is the first that I have seen that is anti dispensationalism, and yet simultaneously also insist he is pre-trib.

Yes those that promote the teaching of a (Pre-Trib Rapture) are following the footsteps of John N. Darby & Adulterer C.I. Scofield and his 1909 reference bible in (Dispensationalism)

It appears you are new to the realm of eschatology, perhaps you need to study the origins of a Pre-Trib Rapture, then get back to the forum with your findings

 

[Guojing]

Yes those that promote the teaching of a (Pre-Trib Rapture) are following the footsteps of John N. Darby & Adulterer C.I. Scofield and his 1909 reference bible in (Dispensationalism)

It appears you are new to the realm of eschatology, perhaps you need to study the origins of a Pre-Trib Rapture, then get back to the forum with your findings

I already said Absolutely disagreed with dispensationalism and yet he is promoting pre-trib rapture.

So your premise is false.

 

[Truth7t7]

I already said Absolutely disagreed with dispensationalism and yet he is promoting pre-trib rapture.

So your premise is false.

Wikipedia: Dispensationalism

Premillennial dispensationalism
Dispensationalists are premillennialists who affirm a future, literal 1,000-year reign of Jesus Christ, Revelation 20:6, which merges with and continues on to the eternal state in the "new heavens and the new earth" (Revelation 21). They claim that the millennial kingdom will be theocratic in nature and not mainly soteriological, as it is considered by George Eldon Ladd and others with a non-dispensational form of premillennialism.

The vast majority of dispensationalists profess a pretribulation rapture, with small minorities professing to either a mid-tribulation, or post-tribulation rapture.

Distinction between Israel and the Church
Dispensationalists profess a definite distinction between Israel and the Christian Church. For dispensationalists, Israel is an ethnic nation consisting of Hebrews (Israelites), beginning with Abraham and continuing in existence to the present. The Church, on the other hand, consists of all saved individuals in this present dispensation—i.e., from the "birth of the Church" in Acts until the time of the rapture