Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[lamad]

The 144,000 are said to be "firstfruit" (however, WE / "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" are not the "main harvest" OF THAT).

There is more than ONE "harvest" in both Scripture and in nature.


James 1:18 says "a KIND of firstfruit" (meaning, again, there is more than ONE "firstfruit"... and indeed this is what we see in Lev23, where TWO DISTINCT "firstfruit" are referred to).





The "WHEAT" is harvested by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement);

whereas the EARLIER harvest, by means of "tossing UP INTO THE AIR" (and BLOWING away the chaff).


[each having its OWN "firstfruit" ]


*WE* are not the "WHEAT" harvest.




One thing that messes many folks up is the phrase: "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" (which does NOT mean "UP IN Heaven"... but is EARTHLY-LOCATED, and relates to "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" age).

Agreed: it is the Kingdom of heaven (on earth).
Of course, the 144,000 are the firstfruits of Israel.
Perhaps the rapture of the church is the main harvest of the Gentiles.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The Bible does NOT refer to Christ's resurrection as being the FIRST one. It is described as "firstfruits",

Let's be accurate here... v.20 says:

"...Christ HAS BEEN RAISED [perfect indicative] *out-from [ek]* [the] dead, FIRSTFRUIT OF those having fallen asleep."

1 Corinthians 15:20 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)


So, "FIRSTFRUIT" of THAT kind [of "raised /resurrection"]. The rest of THAT "harvest" [same "RANK"] will follow suit IN THE SAME MANNER/FASHION (that is, "out-from [ek] [the] dead/of those having fallen asleep"... meaning, at that future rest of that same "harvest" point in time, there will still be bodies of saints who will not yet have been "raised/resurrected" [namely, OT saints, up to that point])

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible does NOT refer to Christ's resurrection as being the FIRST one. It is described as "firstfruits",

Let's be accurate here... v.20 says:

"...Christ HAS BEEN RAISED [perfect indicative] *out-from [ek]* [the] dead, FIRSTFRUIT OF those having fallen asleep."

Yes, that's what I pointed out.

 

[lamad]

I've pointed out that verse 4 is connected to verse 5 by the word "FOR"...so, this is saying,

"Take heed, lest A CERTAIN ONE [G5100] *deceive* you, FOR *MANY* shall come in My name saying..."; and I've pointed out that the "ye / you / your" is a CONSISTENT "ye / you / your" and a "proleptic 'ye / you / your'," meaning (basically), "all those in the future OF THE SAME CATEGORY"; and in THIS *CONTEXT* the "ye / you / your" is "those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom WAS PROMISED" (and *that* was not promised to US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY").

Now, you are free to believe that Jesus shifts gears mid-context, and changes the "ye" who He is speaking to/for/about, but I believe my *consistent* interpretation *FITS* better, especially because of the "TIMING" and "CHRONOLOGY" issues I've pointed out repeatedly:

--Luke 21:12 (per context) states that the 70ad events (vv.12-24a) must takes place "BEFORE ALL THESE" beginning of birth pangs that vv.8-11 JUST FINISHED DESCRIBING (parallel Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 AND the SEALS which are EQUIVALENT to those); and

--Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 (7:3) is saying that the future aspects of the Book (i.e. FROM 4:1 onward [to Rev19's Second Coming point in time]) "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (i.e. the SAME 7-yr TRIB years that the other "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" phrases apply to, found in Lk18:8 ('AVENGE in quickness [noun]'<--this is NOT *NOW*; see also 2Th1:7-8 'INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON') and Rom16:20 ('shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET in quickness [noun]'<--this is NOT *NOW* but will require *our* CHANGE OF LOCATION! ; see also 'WE shall JUDGE ANGELS' 1Cor6:3[14]);





ANY "chronology" that goes against these clear statements of Scripture (and others I've presented in past posts, elsewhere), I reject.

Believe as you wish.

"Take heed, lest A CERTAIN ONE [G5100] *deceive* you, FOR *MANY* shall come in My name saying..."; and I've pointed out that the "ye / you / your" is a CONSISTENT "ye / you / your" and a "proleptic 'ye / you / your'," meaning (basically), "all those in the future OF THE SAME CATEGORY"; and in THIS *CONTEXT* the "ye / you / your" is "those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom WAS PROMISED" (and *that* was not promised to US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY").

My friend, you are imposing your preconceptions on a simple verse! This same word, Tic or whatever it is in Greek, the Nominative Singular Masculine form, was used 221 times in 209 different verses. Let's look a some:

Mat 11:27 - All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man G5100 the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Mat 12:19 - He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man G5100 hear his voice in the streets.

Mar 4:23 - If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 9:30 - And they departed thence, and passed through Galilee; and he would not that any man G5100 should know it.

Luk 8:46 - And Jesus said, Somebody G5100 hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
Luk 14:26 - If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Jhn 2:25 - And needed not that any G5100 should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
Jhn 3:3 - Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man G5100 be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Act 4:34 - Neither was there any G5100 among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 4:35 - And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. G5100

Rom 5:7 - For scarcely for a righteous man will one G5100 die: yet peradventure for a good man some G5100 would even dare to die.

1Co 1:15 - Lest any G5100 should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 5:11 - But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man G5100 that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.


2Co 8:12 - For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man G5100 hath, and not according to that he hath not.
2Co 8:20 - Avoiding this, that no man G5100 should blame us in this abundance which is administered by us:

I must add, Luke favored this word as a "certain man" while Matthew favored it as any man.

The truth is, the could mean a certain man, or it could mean "any man." I submit you chose a certain man due to your preconceptions of what Jesus wanted to say. Truthfully, which fits the context best?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Compare:
take heed that a certain man man deceive you, for many
take heed that any man deceive you, for many

If one was watching for a certain man, they would be deceived by the many! Jesus does not want ANY man to deceive us.

I've pointed out that the "ye / you / your" is a CONSISTENT "ye / you / your" and a "proleptic 'ye / you / your'," meaning (basically), "all those in the future OF THE SAME CATEGORY"; and in THIS *CONTEXT* the "ye / you / your" ...

Please rewrite this so I can make sense of it?

 

[lamad]

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible does NOT refer to Christ's resurrection as being the FIRST one. It is described as "firstfruits",

Yes, that's what I pointed out.

That is silly: "firstfruits" in the OT was always a sampling of the first produce to get ripe. That is why this word includes "first..."

Perhaps you can point to some other resurrection into a glorified body before Jesus?

 

[lamad]

Let's be accurate here... v.20 says:

"...Christ HAS BEEN RAISED [perfect indicative] *out-from [ek]* [the] dead, FIRSTFRUIT OF those having fallen asleep."

1 Corinthians 15:20 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)


So, "FIRSTFRUIT" of THAT kind [of "raised /resurrection"]. The rest of THAT "harvest" [same "RANK"] will follow suit IN THE SAME MANNER/FASHION (that is, "out-from [ek] [the] dead/of those having fallen asleep"... meaning, at that future rest of that same "harvest" point in time, there will still be bodies of saints who will not yet have been "raised/resurrected" [namely, OT saints, up to that point])

You certainly use a lot of words to say something. But good post.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible does NOT refer to Christ's resurrection as being the FIRST one. It is described as "firstfruits",

Yes, that's what I pointed out.

That is silly: "firstfruits" in the OT was always a sampling of the first produce to get ripe. That is why this word includes "first..."

I should have inserted "in" between "being" and "the". So I should have said, "The Bible does NOT refer rto Christ's resurrection as being IN ghe FIRST one." Is that more clear?

Perhaps you can point to some other resurrection into a glorified body before Jesus?

Of course not. Jesus was the very first to receive a resurrection body. The Bible describes this as "the firstfruits". Then the Bible groups all "those who belong to Him" in a single resurrection, described as "the FIRST resurrection" in Rev 20:5.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Compare:
take heed that a certain man man deceive you, for many
take heed that any man deceive you, for many
If one was watching for a certain man, they would be deceived by the many! Jesus does not want ANY man to deceive us.

I disagree (bold^ ).

In their carefulness not to be "deceived" (by "MANY" who "shall come in My name, saying"), there's one in particular that their taking heed will be especially to be noted [is Jesus' point!]

(coz *THAT ONE* IS THE ANTICHRIST / THE MAN OF SIN / THE PRINCE WHO *SHALL COME/WHO IS COMING* [and do the "FOR ONE WEEK [7-YEAR]" THING!! at the START OF IT!] / THE *WHOSE COMING* IS AFTER THE WORKING OF SATAN WITH ALL POWER AND SIGNS AND *LYING* WONDERS AND WITH ALL *DECEIVABLENESS OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS unto those who...". And if you're *deceived* BY HIM, once you take his mark, you're doomed forever [speaking of those existing IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib yrs... and many will be deceived...]
...because his *ARRIVAL* is what kicks off "the 70th Week / 7 Year / Tribulation Period... in every related text! 2Th2:7b-8a/9a EQUALS Dan9:27a[26b]... and those EQUAL Matt24:4/Mk13:5... and THAT EQUALS Rev6:2... and THAT EQUALS the ARRIVAL OF "the DOTL" time-period [1Th5:2-3 "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"!!], aka the START of the [7-y] TRIB, AKA the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1[7:3] speaks with regard to, and is being "SHOWN [I WILL SHOW / TO SHOW UNTO]" to John from 4:1 thru chpt 19's Second Coming to the earth point-in-time! You just do not want to believe that 4:1's "I WILL SHOW" is what 1:1's "TO SHOW UNTO" pertains to. You're free to believe as you wish, and disengage the "person" being WARNED about, from a number of these related texts, in your explanation/scenario... I DISAGREE with your take on it, and instead believe each of these related passages SPEAK TO THAT VERY THING/PERSON [/man of sin /the AC])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Here's a post I made some time back (on this Subject):

[quoting old post]


SEALS. Here's what I believe regarding them.

1) the phrase "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" (Matt24:4-8 [correlating with the SEALS of Rev6]) STARTS with an INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" (1Th5:2-3 'birth PANG [singular]'), and this is what kicks off "the DOTL [time period]" (its ARRIVAL)

----------["the DOTL" includes: the 7-yr trib upon the earth, Christ's Second Coming to the earth, AND His 1000-yr reign on/over the earth--ALL earth-occurring happenings]

2) the "he, he, he" of Daniel 9:27(26b) is the "who, who, who" ['whose,' 'who,' 'whom'] of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9 [his 'beginning,' his 'middle,' his 'end']

----------[BOTH passages are telling of events lasting "7 years / 1 Week"--its 'beginning,' its 'middle,' its 'end']

3) The "whose coming" (of the above-mentioned--'beginning' of the man of sin, 2Th2:9) is the "he" of Daniel 9:27a, who kicks off the "7-yr / 1 Week" thing

---------[this kicks off /STARTS "the DOTL" time period--the "in the night" way the DOTL ARRIVES, the "in his time" of the man of sin (being "revealed", 2Th2:6), Dan7:7]

4) Paul is correcting the Thessalonians' false notion that the DOTL "IS PRESENT" (this false notion is due to the negative circumstances they were presently experiencing [2Th1:4], and false informers telling them this was so [2Th2:2-3a,15]). He's correcting this by saying, "that day [the DOTL time period] will not be present if not shall have come THE Departure [noun] FIRST" (the noun-event he had already just referred to in verse 1 [our 'episynagōgēs [noun] UNTO HIM'], as well as in 1Th4:17 ['the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR'], aka 'the hope of salvation [nouns]'[1Th5:8c]/our [SURE] Rapture)

----------["the DOTL" WILL then be "PRESENT" (with its "man of sin" in his time), once "THE DEPARTURE" (our rapture) takes place (*FIRST*)... but NOT "UNTIL" (2Th2:7b-8a)]

5) "anti-christ" can mean pseudo-christ or in-place-of-christ, and the rider of the white horse at the beginning of Revelation seems to fit this bill in several ways (recall, I said "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" match the SEALS of Rev6... and so this would be the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]"--the ARRIVAL/START/BEGINNING of the DOTL and the presence ['whose coming'] of the man of sin)

----------[the words for "conquering" and "to conquer" (Rev6:2) are the same words later used in 11:7 and 13:7, referring to when he LATER "shall overcome them, and kill them [the 2 Witnesses]" and "to make war with the saints, and to overcome them" (see Daniel 7:21 "made war with the saints, and prevailed against them")]

6) by this point in the Revelation (meaning, the SEALS in Rev6), we've already seen the "24 elders upon 24 thrones" (Rev4:4,10;5:8-10)... and where did they get their "stephanous/crowns"? I believe these represent "the Church which is His body" (of whom "the Rapture" solely pertains--not to saints of all other time periods [not OT saints, not trib saints, not MK saints])--The Church is told in 1Cor6:2-3, "the world shall be judged by you," and "that we shall judge angels" (hence the "thrones"... up there [and before the FIRST SEAL is opened]).

----------[see Paul's "stephanos/crown" in 2Tim4:8 ("which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day"--the Day of Christ UP THERE WITH HIM [whereas the "DOTL" is earthly-occurring; the "DofCHR," by contrast, is UP THERE WITH HIM [note: 2Th2:2 should read "DOTL"--the earth-occurring time period, not the UP THERE thing which is the "DofCHR"]--while they run concurrently, they are different locations, different groups, different purposes)]

7) "When?" Well, without disclosing my entire opinion on the chronology of The Revelation , I can say that I do detect an outline of 7-years-duration [or 2520 days] from what we see at the opening of the FIRST SEAL (Rev5/6:1-2) to His 2nd Coming to the earth (Rev19; "kings go out to battle" and "kings [were] crowned" at a certain time, per Scripture elsewhere, for example)


CONCLUSION: the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" = "the revealing of the man of sin" = the FIRST SEAL = the START of the DOTL (the 7-yr / 1 Week "DARK" portion OF that very long "time period")... many more "birth PANGS [plural]" FOLLOW that point in time (Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8[/Lk21:8-11]<---these BEGINNING of BPs are just "the beginning..." ; ) ).


So that's how I see the SEALS (ALL "future" to us... and future to our "Departure"/Rapture [which is for a specific purpose] ).



Adding this: Rev1:1 says, "to shew unto His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [noun]"... (so I do not believe the "Historicist view" of The Revelation is correct; the idea that the Seals started in the first century and/or that it is describing events unfolding over some 2000 years. No.)

The OT saints, and the Trib saints who die in the trib, are "resurrected" at the END of the trib (Dan12:13; Rev20:4b), but "the Church which is His body" is resurrected/raptured just before the DOTL time period commences (and we are UP THERE "WITH" Him [for the "MARRIAGE" itself] while those 7 years / 70th-Wk unfolds upon the earth, returning "WITH" Him at His 2nd Coming to the earth, FOR the wedding FEAST/SUPPER aka the earthly MK (which the OT saints, resurrected [at END of trib], won't enjoy "without us" [their promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom])]

[end quoting old post]

 

[lamad]

I disagree (bold^ ).

In their carefulness not to be "deceived" (by "MANY" who "shall come in My name, saying"), there's one in particular that their taking heed will be especially to be noted [is Jesus' point!]

(coz *THAT ONE* IS THE ANTICHRIST / THE MAN OF SIN / THE PRINCE WHO *SHALL COME/WHO IS COMING* [and do the "FOR ONE WEEK [7-YEAR]" THING!! at the START OF IT!] / THE *WHOSE COMING* IS AFTER THE WORKING OF SATAN WITH ALL POWER AND SIGNS AND *LYING* WONDERS AND WITH ALL *DECEIVABLENESS OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS unto those who...". And if you're *deceived* BY HIM, once you take his mark, you're doomed forever [speaking of those existing IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib yrs... and many will be deceived...]
...because his *ARRIVAL* is what kicks off "the 70th Week / 7 Year / Tribulation Period... in every related text! 2Th2:7b-8a/9a EQUALS Dan9:27a[26b]... and those EQUAL Matt24:4/Mk13:5... and THAT EQUALS Rev6:2... and THAT EQUALS the ARRIVAL OF "the DOTL" time-period [1Th5:2-3 "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"!!], aka the START of the [7-y] TRIB, AKA the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1[7:3] speaks with regard to, and is being "SHOWN [I WILL SHOW / TO SHOW UNTO]" to John from 4:1 thru chpt 19's Second Coming to the earth point-in-time! You just do not want to believe that 4:1's "I WILL SHOW" is what 1:1's "TO SHOW UNTO" pertains to. You're free to believe as you wish, and disengage the "person" being WARNED about, from a number of these related texts, in your explanation/scenario... I DISAGREE with your take on it, and instead believe each of these related passages SPEAK TO THAT VERY THING/PERSON [/man of sin /the AC])

In their carefulness not to be "deceived" (by "MANY" who "shall come in My name, saying"), there's one in particular that their taking heed will be especially to be noted [is Jesus' point!]

How can you possibly get that from the words that Jesus spoke? I looked at 61 English translations and NOT ONE included the word "certain." Am I to believe you or believe the 61? They all said no man or no one. Why? Because that fits the context. Of course that greek word CAN men a certain one, but not in this case. You are forcing your own preconceptions on this passage. Your preconceptions involve "the end is not yet," along with the parallel seals. You are simply wrong here.

Just a question: if indeed Jesus was thinking of a certain one, do you not find it strange he never mentions that certain one again? He could have mentioned it in verse 15 with the abomination, but He didn't. In fact, please show us any verse anywhere, where Jesus mentions or talks about the man of sin or the Antichrist. (Good luck with that!)

because his *ARRIVAL* is what kicks off "the 70th Week / 7 Year / Tribulation Period... in every related text!

This should prove interesting!

2Th2:7b-8a/9a
7 ... only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,...
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan
Sorry, nothing here that specify's he will kick off the 70th week. This is talking about his revealing - when the world will know who he is. His revealing is, without a doubt, at the midpoint of the week.
A red herring? Non Sequitur?

Dan9:27a[26b
26...and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,...
Finally! 27 does indeed speak of the confirming of a covenant. Interesting to note, neither Jesus no John speak of this at all. I suspect it will be done in secret, OR done with many people involved so one could hide.

On another note, there may we be a better way to note the start of the 70th week. Just watch for first trumpet judgment. That will be the first salvo of the week.

those EQUAL Matt24:4/Mk13:5.
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. RED FLAG! It is no man, nothing about a certain one!
5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. RED FLAG! It is no man, nothing about a certain one!
TDW is pushing His own preconceptions on these two verses, insisting they mean "a certain one." I think forcing a meaning on a verse is poor exegesis.

Rev. 6:2
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. HUGE RED FLAG!!! JUST HUGE. He has pulled this verse out of its first century context: Rev. 5:6-7: Jesus got the book as soon as He ascended and started immediately to open seals.

Next, there is no one word in this seal description that even hints of evil. It is a preconceived thought FORCED upon this passage.

Next, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, and 16 of those was for righteousness or Godliness. This write assumes the impossible: that god would use white once for evil and 16 times for righteousness! NEVER HAPPEN!

Next, TDW has not confined the Beast and his cohorts to only 1/4 of the world, when John tells us: "power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." (Rev. 13:7) Therefore, TDW's theory is bogus.

Finally, John does not write of the Beast's rising up until a MIDPOINT chapter. (13) (This is huge: don't second guess it.)

Rev6:2... and THAT EQUALS the ARRIVAL OF "the DOTL" time-period

Sorry, just one more in a lineup of mistakes. 6:2 Is to represent the church sent out with the gospel, Circa 32 AD (right after Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. The DAY does not start until the 6th seal which is after the church age. He's only 2000 years off!

1Th5:2-3 "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"!!], aka the START of the [7-y] TRIB,

NO! Not 70th week time: it is DAY OF THE LORD time. TDW has jumped the gun yet again; always thinking John is in the end times when in reality he is still in the church age.

Question: would the martyrs of the 70th week even bother to ask how long until Judgment? They know the judgment has been ongoing for half the 7 years, or more and will end before the week ends (Shortened.) They would all know all they have to do is remain hiding till the end of the 7 years.

Compare with the church age martyrs of the 5th seal. They have no idea how long the church age will last or when Judgment on their murderers can begin. TDW does not know YET that the "trib" begins with the 7th seal.

 

[lamad]

I... You just do not want to believe that 4:1's "I WILL SHOW" is what 1:1's "TO SHOW UNTO" pertains to. You're free to believe as you wish, and disengage the "person" being WARNED about, from a number of these related texts, in your explanation/scenario... I DISAGREE with your take on it, and instead believe each of these related passages SPEAK TO THAT VERY THING/PERSON [/man of sin /the AC])

I have a choice: I can believe the Head of the Church, Jesus Christ, since HE TAUGHT ME. Or I can believe you. Sorry, but I am going with HIM. Why is simple English so difficult for you? Look:

Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

WE covered english sentences like this is maybe the 3rd grade. It is simple English.
Subject: YOu or John is understood.
Verb: COME
Adverb Here.

WHY did God call John up to heaven? It is a compound sentence:

AND a connection word tying what comes with what was before
Subject "I" (God)
Verb: will show
Object: Thee...Things which must be hereafter.

So we have established that God would show John things in John's future. No secret hidden in this verse. God did what He said He would do.
Let's question John about this;
Did Jesus show John things that must be hereafter?"
All we do is read from the fifth seal on: it is all future.

So did Jesus do what He said He would do? YES YES YES!

I agree with you that 1:1 is another promise to show John future events.

(I) believe each of these related passages SPEAK TO THAT VERY THING/PERSON [/man of sin /the AC

You can be wrong, and in this case you have forces verses to say what you want them to say, and due to wrong preconceptions, you are in error.

Question: do you have any knowledge of john's Chronology, or do you mostly ignore or rearrange to fit?
Do you not think that in 95 AD God would have something to say about the church age? Your theories have made the messages to each of 7 churches all the book has to say about the church age! I really need to reconsider!

Finally, if a brother in the lord said to you, "let me tell you what the Lord said to me..." what would be your response?

 

[lamad]

Here's a post I made some time back (on this Subject):

[quoting old post]


SEALS. Here's what I believe regarding them.

1) the phrase "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" (Matt24:4-8 [correlating with the SEALS of Rev6]) STARTS with an INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" (1Th5:2-3 'birth PANG [singular]'), and this is what kicks off "the DOTL [time period]" (its ARRIVAL)

----------["the DOTL" includes: the 7-yr trib upon the earth, Christ's Second Coming to the earth, AND His 1000-yr reign on/over the earth--ALL earth-occurring happenings]

2) the "he, he, he" of Daniel 9:27(26b) is the "who, who, who" ['whose,' 'who,' 'whom'] of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9 [his 'beginning,' his 'middle,' his 'end']

----------[BOTH passages are telling of events lasting "7 years / 1 Week"--its 'beginning,' its 'middle,' its 'end']

3) The "whose coming" (of the above-mentioned--'beginning' of the man of sin, 2Th2:9) is the "he" of Daniel 9:27a, who kicks off the "7-yr / 1 Week" thing

---------[this kicks off /STARTS "the DOTL" time period--the "in the night" way the DOTL ARRIVES, the "in his time" of the man of sin (being "revealed", 2Th2:6), Dan7:7]

4) Paul is correcting the Thessalonians' false notion that the DOTL "IS PRESENT" (this false notion is due to the negative circumstances they were presently experiencing [2Th1:4], and false informers telling them this was so [2Th2:2-3a,15]). He's correcting this by saying, "that day [the DOTL time period] will not be present if not shall have come THE Departure [noun] FIRST" (the noun-event he had already just referred to in verse 1 [our 'episynagōgēs [noun] UNTO HIM'], as well as in 1Th4:17 ['the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR'], aka 'the hope of salvation [nouns]'[1Th5:8c]/our [SURE] Rapture)

----------["the DOTL" WILL then be "PRESENT" (with its "man of sin" in his time), once "THE DEPARTURE" (our rapture) takes place (*FIRST*)... but NOT "UNTIL" (2Th2:7b-8a)]

5) "anti-christ" can mean pseudo-christ or in-place-of-christ, and the rider of the white horse at the beginning of Revelation seems to fit this bill in several ways (recall, I said "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" match the SEALS of Rev6... and so this would be the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]"--the ARRIVAL/START/BEGINNING of the DOTL and the presence ['whose coming'] of the man of sin)

----------[the words for "conquering" and "to conquer" (Rev6:2) are the same words later used in 11:7 and 13:7, referring to when he LATER "shall overcome them, and kill them [the 2 Witnesses]" and "to make war with the saints, and to overcome them" (see Daniel 7:21 "made war with the saints, and prevailed against them")]

6) by this point in the Revelation (meaning, the SEALS in Rev6), we've already seen the "24 elders upon 24 thrones" (Rev4:4,10;5:8-10)... and where did they get their "stephanous/crowns"? I believe these represent "the Church which is His body" (of whom "the Rapture" solely pertains--not to saints of all other time periods [not OT saints, not trib saints, not MK saints])--The Church is told in 1Cor6:2-3, "the world shall be judged by you," and "that we shall judge angels" (hence the "thrones"... up there [and before the FIRST SEAL is opened]).

----------[see Paul's "stephanos/crown" in 2Tim4:8 ("which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day"--the Day of Christ UP THERE WITH HIM [whereas the "DOTL" is earthly-occurring; the "DofCHR," by contrast, is UP THERE WITH HIM [note: 2Th2:2 should read "DOTL"--the earth-occurring time period, not the UP THERE thing which is the "DofCHR"]--while they run concurrently, they are different locations, different groups, different purposes)]

7) "When?" Well, without disclosing my entire opinion on the chronology of The Revelation , I can say that I do detect an outline of 7-years-duration [or 2520 days] from what we see at the opening of the FIRST SEAL (Rev5/6:1-2) to His 2nd Coming to the earth (Rev19; "kings go out to battle" and "kings [were] crowned" at a certain time, per Scripture elsewhere, for example)


CONCLUSION: the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" = "the revealing of the man of sin" = the FIRST SEAL = the START of the DOTL (the 7-yr / 1 Week "DARK" portion OF that very long "time period")... many more "birth PANGS [plural]" FOLLOW that point in time (Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8[/Lk21:8-11]<---these BEGINNING of BPs are just "the beginning..." ; ) ).


So that's how I see the SEALS (ALL "future" to us... and future to our "Departure"/Rapture [which is for a specific purpose] ).



Adding this: Rev1:1 says, "to shew unto His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [noun]"... (so I do not believe the "Historicist view" of The Revelation is correct; the idea that the Seals started in the first century and/or that it is describing events unfolding over some 2000 years. No.)

The OT saints, and the Trib saints who die in the trib, are "resurrected" at the END of the trib (Dan12:13; Rev20:4b), but "the Church which is His body" is resurrected/raptured just before the DOTL time period commences (and we are UP THERE "WITH" Him [for the "MARRIAGE" itself] while those 7 years / 70th-Wk unfolds upon the earth, returning "WITH" Him at His 2nd Coming to the earth, FOR the wedding FEAST/SUPPER aka the earthly MK (which the OT saints, resurrected [at END of trib], won't enjoy "without us" [their promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom])]

[end quoting old post]

the phrase "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" (Matt24:4-8 [correlating with the SEALS of Rev6]) STARTS with an INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" (1Th5:2-3 'birth PANG [singular]'), and this is what kicks off "the DOTL [time period]" (its ARRIVAL)

Wow! You did a good job here, which I find remarkable since you started off in error.
What you should have said! ;-)

The beginning of Birth pains is tied to "the end is not yet" and is speaking of Jewish age from 95 AD to the present. Jesus goes from "the end is not yet" to mentioning the end, and then jumping over the first half of the week to land on the abomination event that will divide the week.

Seals 2, three and four parallel what Jesus said would come: Wars, famines, and pestilences. Since these are parallel events and since Jesus was NOT YET talking about the end, there must be evidence that these seals are church age from around 95 AD. And we find that evidence easy to find: in Rev. 4 & 5 John gives us a very brief walk with Jesus as He is on the earth, then is crucified, then dies, then rises from the dead, and then ascends back into the throne room. And the first think He does is send the Holy Spirit down, then He takes the book from the hand of the Father and begins opening the seals: circa 32 AD. The first seal is to represent the church sent out with the gospel. So from then to know is what we call the church age. In Eph. 3 Paul called it the dispensation of Grace.

The day of the Lord, or the start of God's wrath, CANNOT START until after the rapture. I think Paul makes these back to back events with NO TIME between: one second it is church age, then the rapture, and a second later it is the Day of the Lord.

[this kicks off /STARTS "the DOTL" time period

Sorry, but you are off base here. It is the RAPTURE that will trigger the start of the Day of the Lord: 6th seal. If the rapture comes at the last trump of the Feast of trumpets, then 10 days later the 7th seal will be opened to officially start the 70th week. The AC beast is not revealed then! He is not revealed as the BEAST until He enters the temple and declares He is God. So HE IS KNOWN by all as a good guy to start. But perhaps a few will know him as the man of sin. But when He declares he is God, then people will know the AC Beast has shown up.
(note, I have just change my thinking on this.) IOW SOMEONE will be on every tv station after the rapture. He will explain why half the population suddenly disappeared. He will seem to have all the answers to earth's problems.

However, this world friendly guy is the man of sin and at the midpoint of the week WILL turn into the AC Beast. That is why John saw him rising up in chapter 11, not chapter 6.

the DOTL ARRIVES, the "in his time" of the man of sin (being "revealed", 2Th2:6), Dan7:7]

No, wrong. The revealing is Him being revealed as the AC Beast of Rev. 13. That will not happen until the midpoint of the week. He will be the most visible man in the world during the first half of the week. My guess is, He will not take out the three kings until after He is revealed as the Beast.

"7 years / 1 Week"--its 'beginning,' its 'middle,' its 'end

God marked the 70th week for our help:
7th seal, start of the week.
7th trumpet marks the midpoint
7th vial ends the week.

 

[Runningman]

Wow! You did a good job here, which I find remarkable since you started off in error.
What you should have said! ;-)

The beginning of Birth pains is tied to "the end is not yet" and is speaking of Jewish age from 95 AD to the present. Jesus goes from "the end is not yet" to mentioning the end, and then jumping over the first half of the week to land on the abomination event that will divide the week.

Seals 2, three and four parallel what Jesus said would come: Wars, famines, and pestilences. Since these are parallel events and since Jesus was NOT YET talking about the end, there must be evidence that these seals are church age from around 95 AD. And we find that evidence easy to find: in Rev. 4 & 5 John gives us a very brief walk with Jesus as He is on the earth, then is crucified, then dies, then rises from the dead, and then ascends back into the throne room. And the first think He does is send the Holy Spirit down, then He takes the book from the hand of the Father and begins opening the seals: circa 32 AD. The first seal is to represent the church sent out with the gospel. So from then to know is what we call the church age. In Eph. 3 Paul called it the dispensation of Grace.

The day of the Lord, or the start of God's wrath, CANNOT START until after the rapture. I think Paul makes these back to back events with NO TIME between: one second it is church age, then the rapture, and a second later it is the Day of the Lord.



Sorry, but you are off base here. It is the RAPTURE that will trigger the start of the Day of the Lord: 6th seal. If the rapture comes at the last trump of the Feast of trumpets, then 10 days later the 7th seal will be opened to officially start the 70th week. The AC beast is not revealed then! He is not revealed as the BEAST until He enters the temple and declares He is God. So HE IS KNOWN by all as a good guy to start. But perhaps a few will know him as the man of sin. But when He declares he is God, then people will know the AC Beast has shown up.
(note, I have just change my thinking on this.) IOW SOMEONE will be on every tv station after the rapture. He will explain why half the population suddenly disappeared. He will seem to have all the answers to earth's problems.

However, this world friendly guy is the man of sin and at the midpoint of the week WILL turn into the AC Beast. That is why John saw him rising up in chapter 11, not chapter 6.


No, wrong. The revealing is Him being revealed as the AC Beast of Rev. 13. That will not happen until the midpoint of the week. He will be the most visible man in the world during the first half of the week. My guess is, He will not take out the three kings until after He is revealed as the Beast.

God marked the 70th week for our help:
7th seal, start of the week.
7th trumpet marks the midpoint
7th vial ends the week.

Your whole argument falls apart because it is well proven that Gods wrath doesn't start until after the great tribulation at the return of Christ per the Olivet Discourse, the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Your whole argument falls apart because it is well proven that Gods wrath doesn't start until after the great tribulation at the return of Christ per the Olivet Discourse, the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial.

Your whole argument fails because even when all 7 Vials are being announced, 15:1 states definitively [re: the "7 VIALS"] that, "for IN THEM [PLURAL] the wrath of God IS COMPLETED."... Not merely in (or commencing at) Vial #7, as you are suggesting here.






[Additionally, these are said to be the "SEVEN *LAST* PLAGUES"... and they themselves (the 7 VIALS, IN WHICH "the wrath of God IS COMPLETED") TAKE SOME MEASURE OF *TIME* to unfold upon the earth... therefore, I reject your explanation as you've stated in the above-quoted post]

 

[Runningman]

Your whole argument fails because even when all 7 Vials are being announced, 15:1 states definitively [re: the "7 VIALS"] that, "for IN THEM [PLURAL] the wrath of God IS COMPLETED."... Not merely in (or commencing at) Vial #7, as you are suggesting here.






[Additionally, these are said to be the "SEVEN *LAST* PLAGUES"... and they themselves (the 7 VIALS, IN WHICH "the wrath of God IS COMPLETED") TAKE SOME MEASURE OF *TIME* to unfold upon the earth... therefore, I reject your explanation as you've stated in the above-quoted post]

False. The 7th vial is God's wrath. It plainly states it below. God's wrath is also revealed in the 6th seal and 7th trumpet. Need me to quote those, too?

The 7th Vial
Revelation 16:17
17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

 

[Runningman]

False. The 7th vial is God's wrath. It plainly states it below. God's wrath is also revealed in the 6th seal and 7th trumpet. Need me to quote those, too?

The 7th Vial
Revelation 16:17
17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

What I'm trying to get you to see is that there are strong comparisons between the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial.

6th seal
Revelation 6:12-17
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

7th trumpet
Revelation 11:15-19
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Bonus: the Book of Revelation is not written in chronological sequence.

 

[SoundSculpturesforFaith]

I've thought over the scriptures about the Rapture of the Church. Rapture means to be caught up in revelation of who Christ is in your life and to know him is to to mercy, grace and his purpose for you on this earth as a witness. I wrote a song about this this. Stand in Faith

 

[SoundSculpturesforFaith]

I will add further Scriptures as the thread progresses. There are some interesting OT verses that hint at the Rapture.

https://barrysetterfield.org/Rapture.html

I will add further Scriptures as the thread progresses. There are some interesting OT verses that hint at the Rapture.

https://barrysetterfield.org/Rapture.html

1 Thess 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us FROM the wrath to come.

2 Thess 1:6-8
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
and to give YOU who are troubled REST with us WHEN the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
in flaming fire taking vengeance (which is the purpose of the GT......a purpose not accorded to the Bride) on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thess 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us FROM the wrath to come.

2 Thess 1:6-8
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
and to give YOU who are troubled REST with us WHEN the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
in flaming fire taking vengeance (which is the purpose of the GT......a purpose not accorded to the Bride) on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If you stand in Faith, be mercy to those around you by the grace of God offer the world the truth just by the way you conduct yourself and you will have a great victory in love divine.

 

[Ahwatukee]

What I'm trying to get you to see is that there are strong comparisons between the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial.

6th seal
Revelation 6:12-17
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

7th trumpet
Revelation 11:15-19
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Bonus: the Book of Revelation is not written in chronological sequence.

Hi Runningman,

Both references to God's wrath at the 6th seal and 7th trumpet are general announcements which includes all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. To be clear, at the 6th trumpet when we read "the great day of their wrath has come and who can stand," it includes the seals that will have already taken place, as well as trumpets and bowls that follow. The announcement at the 6th seal is not a starting point for God's wrath. If that were true, then the announcement at the 7th trumpet would also be a starting point, which would give us two separate starting points.

Jesus as the Lamb, is the One opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments and which means that He is responsible for all of the resulting fatalities. And yes, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place in the chronological order that they appear in Revelation. Otherwise, it would make no sense to list them as one thru seven.

To be even clearer, the reference to the mountains and islands at the opening of the 6th seal, is not the same event regarding the mountains and the islands of the 7th bowl judgment. At the 6th seal, the mountains and islands are stirred in their places. Where at the 7th bowl, the greatest earth quake the world has ever seen will cause the mountains and the islands to not be found, most likely due to the liquification factor, meaning they will sink into the earth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The 7th Vial
Revelation 16:17
17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

I just quoted a brief part of their INTRODUCTION, per 15:1 (see here the whole CONTEXT):

Revelation 15:1-8 -

Seven Angels with Seven Plagues

1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them [PLURAL] is filled up [/is COMPLETED - G5055 - etelesthē / teleó ] the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: 6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. 7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled [/were COMPLETED - G5055 - telesthōsin / teleó ].



The next chapter (chpt.16, v.1) is a voice telling those "seven angels" to
"Go, and pour out the seven vials of the wrath of God unto the earth [the ones just having been introduced in the previous chapter, which had stated "for IN THEM [PLURAL--IN ALL OF THEM] the wrath of God IS COMPLETED [G5055]"!]

https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/16-1.htm - Revelation 16:1 [see at link]



I have no clue why you are insisting that only the final [7th] "VIAL" (which *you* equate with Seal #6 and Trumpet #7) is "the wrath of God," when these texts I'm pointing out clearly show that this is NOT THE CASE (that only the final "VIAL" [the 7th] is the wrath of God... its arrival and conclusion both. NO.)