The Trinity Doctrine in the Bible

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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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Wildly speculative. Not everyone wrote books about their beliefs. You have zero proof that nobody ascribed to Sola Scriptura then!

It's not only wild speculation it's a false assertion. When it came to the early councils the men involved searched the scriptures for the answers not the council itself. The councils agreed to what scripture stated as it was the sole infallable source of authority..not the council itself.

So the early church did indeed believe in Sola Scriptura... Of Course they didn't use that term but the proof as they say is in the pudding.
 
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And those words and traditions (παράδοσις, that which is handed down) became what we call the New Testament. Paul had already preached the gospel to the churches at thessolonia and Corinth and was reminding the believers in those churches of this fact. He was not imparting some secret knowledge that only the hierarchy of Rome knows about.

In fact, If tradition is so important to the modern Roman believer, where can I find a copy of this "Tradition"? I mean, the Jews have the Mishnah and a commentary on the traditions in the Talmud all while under great persecution. Surely Rome has produced a definitive edition of Tradition after 2000 years. Could you provide an Amazon or Barnes and Noble link?
The New Testament wasn’t canonized for 400 years. The Bible says to hold fast to the tradition, it never says to stop nor does the Bible say every oral tradition was written down.

As for the tradition, it’s called the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You can buy it on Amazon.
 

Athanasius377

Active member
Aug 20, 2020
207
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Northern Kentucky
You clearly don’t know the role of the Pope. I believe the 2000 year old Church that Christ established won’t lead me astray.
Yet your church believes and teaches De Fide and under punishment of mortal sin those dogmas that no early christian believed. (Marian dogmas, papacy etc) Yet if a believer were to be transported from the second century to the 16th century they would have been burned at the stake for heresy yet you claim they are catholic like you. How is that possible?

Or even more modern times. A Roman believer 100 years ago would not recognize the church calling itself Roman Catholic today. The changes in language, liturgy, teaching etc.

Or even in my lifetime. Pope Francis does not believe in the same doctrine as John Paul II or even his immediate predecessor Benedict XVI! It's a fact no Roman apologist wants to deal with Francis because he's walking theological dumpster fire even from the Roman point of view.
 
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Believing the bodily assumption of Mary is mandatory for Catholics, yet is nowhere found in the Bible.

Can you prove anyone believed this prior to the third century?
I don’t believe in Sola scriptura so I don’t have to prove everything from the Bible. Mary has a body in Revelation. If she were spirit only, she wouldn’t have a body.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
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I don’t believe in Sola scriptura so I don’t have to prove everything from the Bible. Mary has a body in Revelation. If she were spirit only, she wouldn’t have a body.

But you do have to prove why you think scripture is insufficent, in other words deficient. It needs fallen man to supplement Gods word.

Doe's not the bible itself claim to be sufficient in all matters of faith?
 

Athanasius377

Active member
Aug 20, 2020
207
86
28
Northern Kentucky
The New Testament wasn’t canonized for 400 years. The Bible says to hold fast to the tradition, it never says to stop nor does the Bible say every oral tradition was written down.

As for the tradition, it’s called the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You can buy it on Amazon.
Wrong. It wasn't canonized until 1546 by your own standards.

And I have a copy, though sadly it's out of date because Francis changed it. It only lasted less than 30 years. But that is a collection of teaching material, not tradition. It mentions tradition but does not contain the source material called tradition. So I ask again, where can I find a copy of tradition?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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So let me get this straight...
You believe that Protestantism is the authentic Christian faith of the Early Church (that was present during at least the 2nd century)...but you cannot name one Christian during that time that wrote about these beliefs Protestants have today and held those beliefs themselves?
The perpetual virginity of Mary is nowhere found in the Bible.

Can you prove anyone believed this prior to the third or fourth century?

And, hey, saying protestant beliefs did not exist prior to the 2nd century is insane.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,313
29,572
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I don’t believe in Sola scriptura so I don’t have to prove everything from the Bible. Mary has a body in Revelation. If she were spirit only, she wouldn’t have a body.
Yeah, in other words, you don't have to believe the Bible.

That's a major problem your popes endorse.

Mary is not mentioned in Revelation.

The earliest Church father to identify the woman as Mary is St. Quodvultdeus in the year A.D. 430.

The Council of Laodicea and Cyril of Jerusalem did not even include Revelation in their canonical lists.

Your standard is not being met for your beliefs.
 
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Yet your church believes and teaches De Fide and under punishment of mortal sin those dogmas that no early christian believed. (Marian dogmas, papacy etc) Yet if a believer were to be transported from the second century to the 16th century they would have been burned at the stake for heresy yet you claim they are catholic like you. How is that possible?

Or even more modern times. A Roman believer 100 years ago would not recognize the church calling itself Roman Catholic today. The changes in language, liturgy, teaching etc.

Or even in my lifetime. Pope Francis does not believe in the same doctrine as John Paul II or even his immediate predecessor Benedict XVI! It's a fact no Roman apologist wants to deal with Francis because he's walking theological dumpster fire even from the Roman point of view.
No official church document has ever referred to itself as the Roman Catholic Church, it is always the Catholic Church. Check it for yourself if you don’t believe me.

Popes are only infallible if they teach excathedra; which Francis, Benedict, nor John Paul ever did. So they are free to disagree on anything they like except dogma. All those popes believe in the same dogmas of the Catholic Church. Name one dogma that one of them denies? It has no consequences for the body of believers.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,327
6,696
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no man is infallible . a pope is just a dude in a costume.

Christ alone. Sola Scriptura.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,313
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Popes are only infallible if they teach excathedra; which Francis, Benedict, nor John Paul ever did. So they are free to disagree on anything they like except dogma. All those popes believe in the same dogmas of the Catholic Church. Name one dogma that one of them denies? It has no consequences for the body of believers.
Funny/peculiar how the mandatory beliefs of your heretical church mainly concern Mary and not Jesus/God.
 
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The perpetual virginity of Mary is nowhere found in the Bible.

Can you prove anyone believed this prior to the third or fourth century?

And, hey, saying protestant beliefs did not exist prior to the 2nd century is insane.
If Protestant beliefs existed that early, you should have no problem finding those people then. I look forward to what you find.

Here are just some early testaments to Mary’s perpetual virginity.

ORIGEN OF ALEXANDRIA
But some say, basing it on a tradition in the Gospel according to Peter, as it is called, or “The Book [Protoevangelium] of James,” that the brothers of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that her body, which was appointed to minister to the Word, which said, “The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow you” [Lk 1:35], might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it reasonable that Jesus was the first fruit among men of the purity that consists in chastity, and Mary among women; for it is not pious to ascribe to any other than her the first fruit of virginity [Commentary on Matthew 10:17 (c. A.D. 249)].

ST. ATHANASIUS OF ALEXANDRIA
Therefore let those who deny that the Son is from the Father by nature and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh of Mary Ever-Virgin [Four Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 (c. A.D. 360)].

ST. JEROME
Now that I have cleared the rocks and shoals I must spread sail and make all speed to reach his epilogue. Feeling himself to be a smatterer, he there produces Tertullian as a witness and quotes the words of Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proved from the Gospel—that he spoke of the brothers of the Lord not as being sons of Mary, but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, in point of kinship, not by nature. We are, however, spending our strength on trifles, and, leaving the fountain of truth, are following tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, St. Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views, and wrote volumes full of wisdom. If you read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man. But I think it better to reply briefly to each point than to linger any longer and extend my book to an undue length [Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary 19 (A.D. 383)]. We believe that God was born of the Virgin, because we read it. That Mary was married after she brought forth, we do not believe, because we do not read it. Nor do we say this to condemn marriage, for virginity itself is the fruit of marriage; but because when we are dealing with saints we must not judge rashly. If we adopt possibility as the standard of judgment, we might maintain that Joseph had several wives because Abraham had, and so had Jacob, and that the Lord’s brothers were the issue of those wives, an invention that some hold with a rashness that springs from audacity, not piety. You say that Mary did not continue a virgin: I claim still more that Joseph himself, on account of Mary, was a virgin, so that from a virgin wedlock a virgin son was born [ibid., 21].

POPE ST. SIRICIUS I
Surely, we cannot deny that regarding the sons of Mary the statement is justly censured, and your holiness rightly abhors it, that from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born, another offspring was brought forth. For neither would the Lord Jesus have chosen to be born of a Virgin if he had judged she would be so incontinent, that with the seed of human copulation she would pollute the generative chamber of the Lord’s body, the palace of the eternal king [Letter to Bishop Anysius (A.D. 392)].

ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN
Imitate [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of maternal virtue; for neither have you sweeter children, nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son [Letters 63:111 (A.D. 396)].

ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO
Thus Christ by being born of a Virgin who, before she knew who was to be born of her, had determined to continue a Virgin, chose to approve, rather than to command, holy virginity. And thus, even in the female herself, in whom he took the form of a servant, he willed that virginity should be free [Holy Virginity 4:4 (A.D. 401)].

LEPORIUS
We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the Ever-Virgin Mary [Document of Amendment 3 (A.D. 426)].

POPE ST. LEO I
The origin is different but the nature alike: not by intercourse with man but by the power of God was it brought about: for a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and a Virgin she remained [Sermons 22:2 (A.D. 450)].

COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE II
If anyone will not confess that the Word of God . . . came down from the heavens and was made flesh of holy and glorious Mary, Mother of God and Ever Virgin, and was born from her, let him be anathema [Capitula of the Council 2 (A.D. 553)].
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,313
29,572
113
Here are just some early testaments to Mary’s perpetual virginity.

ORIGEN OF ALEXANDRIA
But some say, basing it on a tradition in the Gospel according to Peter, as it is called, or “The Book [Protoevangelium] of James,” that the brothers of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that her body, which was appointed to minister to the Word, which said, “The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow you” [Lk 1:35], might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it reasonable that Jesus was the first fruit among men of the purity that consists in chastity, and Mary among women; for it is not pious to ascribe to any other than her the first fruit of virginity [Commentary on Matthew 10:17 (c. A.D. 249)].

ST. ATHANASIUS OF ALEXANDRIA
Therefore let those who deny that the Son is from the Father by nature and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh of Mary Ever-Virgin [Four Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 (c. A.D. 360)].

ST. JEROME
Now that I have cleared the rocks and shoals I must spread sail and make all speed to reach his epilogue. Feeling himself to be a smatterer, he there produces Tertullian as a witness and quotes the words of Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proved from the Gospel—that he spoke of the brothers of the Lord not as being sons of Mary, but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, in point of kinship, not by nature. We are, however, spending our strength on trifles, and, leaving the fountain of truth, are following tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, St. Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views, and wrote volumes full of wisdom. If you read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man. But I think it better to reply briefly to each point than to linger any longer and extend my book to an undue length [Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary 19 (A.D. 383)]. We believe that God was born of the Virgin, because we read it. That Mary was married after she brought forth, we do not believe, because we do not read it. Nor do we say this to condemn marriage, for virginity itself is the fruit of marriage; but because when we are dealing with saints we must not judge rashly. If we adopt possibility as the standard of judgment, we might maintain that Joseph had several wives because Abraham had, and so had Jacob, and that the Lord’s brothers were the issue of those wives, an invention that some hold with a rashness that springs from audacity, not piety. You say that Mary did not continue a virgin: I claim still more that Joseph himself, on account of Mary, was a virgin, so that from a virgin wedlock a virgin son was born [ibid., 21].

POPE ST. SIRICIUS I
Surely, we cannot deny that regarding the sons of Mary the statement is justly censured, and your holiness rightly abhors it, that from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born, another offspring was brought forth. For neither would the Lord Jesus have chosen to be born of a Virgin if he had judged she would be so incontinent, that with the seed of human copulation she would pollute the generative chamber of the Lord’s body, the palace of the eternal king [Letter to Bishop Anysius (A.D. 392)]. ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN Imitate [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of maternal virtue; for neither have you sweeter children, nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son [Letters 63:111 (A.D. 396)].

ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO
Thus Christ by being born of a Virgin who, before she knew who was to be born of her, had determined to continue a Virgin, chose to approve, rather than to command, holy virginity. And thus, even in the female herself, in whom he took the form of a servant, he willed that virginity should be free [Holy Virginity 4:4 (A.D. 401)].

LEPORIUS
We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the Ever-Virgin Mary [Document of Amendment 3 (A.D. 426)].

POPE ST. LEO I
The origin is different but the nature alike: not by intercourse with man but by the power of God was it brought about: for a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and a Virgin she remained [Sermons 22:2 (A.D. 450)].

COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE II
If anyone will not confess that the Word of God . . . came down from the heavens and was made flesh of holy and glorious Mary, Mother of God and Ever Virgin, and was born from her, let him be anathema [Capitula of the Council 2 (A.D. 553)].
Yeah, none of those are prior to the 2nd century. Your standard has still not been met.

If Protestant beliefs existed that early, you should have no problem finding those people then. I look forward to what you find.
Please read the Bible for early protestant beliefs. They are in there :)
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
113
No official church document has ever referred to itself as the Roman Catholic Church, it is always the Catholic Church. Check it for yourself if you don’t believe me.

.
That's very true the catholic (universal) Church is not the Roman Catholic Church. The RCC made its own path away from scriptural teaching..like mixing oil and water.
 
May 6, 2021
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Yeah, none of those are prior to the 2nd century. Your standard has still not been met.



Please read the Bible for early protestant beliefs. They are in there :)
Protestantism has no history in early Christianity. It’s why you have no sources to quote. Mary’s virginity was not disputed in the early church so it’s not really reasonable for you to disregard all I provided and you offer no proof yourself to show she wasn’t ever virgin. Surely one Christian would of written about this apparent heresy right?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,313
29,572
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Protestantism has no history in early Christianity. It’s why you have no sources to quote. Mary’s virginity was not disputed in the early church so it’s not really reasonable for you to disregard all I provided and you offer no proof yourself to show she wasn’t ever virgin. Surely one Christian would of written about this apparent heresy right?
You call the Bible "no source"? Why am I not surprised...

You ask for writings prior to 2nd century. What you provided was later than that.

Your beliefs do not even meet your own standard.
 
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That's very true the catholic (universal) Church is not the Roman Catholic Church. The RCC made its own path away from scriptural teaching..like mixing oil and water.
The Catholic Church has never referred to itself as the Roman Catholic Church in any official document, that’s just something society calls the church.
 
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You call the Bible "no source"? Why am I not surprised...

You ask for prior to 2nd century. What you provided was later than that.

Your beliefs do not even meet your own standard.
You and I don’t agree on what the Bible means so we have to settle it another way. History makes sense, so let’s see some from you?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
113
The Catholic Church has never referred to itself as the Roman Catholic Church in any official document, that’s just something society calls the church.

But there is a distinction.... thats why I use the a small 'c' in catholic church the one true universal church not the Roman Catholic church.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,313
29,572
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You and I don’t agree on what the Bible means so we have to settle it another way. History makes sense, so let’s see some from you?
You made the original claim, so the onus is on you to prove what you have said.

I merely claimed you have no way of proving what you said.

You speculate and promote your imaginings as fact.

Furthermore, you set a standard you cannot adhere to with your own beliefs.

That's called hypocrisy.