The Trinity Doctrine in the Bible

[Blackpowderduelist]

He doesn’t, he couldn’t. There were no Christians in Heaven to ask to pray for us at the time Jesus was on earth.

What do you mean by this then?
"Exactly, so why would Christ mention asking our departed brothers and sisters in heaven to pray".

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

The sacred writings are the Old Testament, not the new in the verse.

All the things learned and believed in those verses are from the Oral Tradition handed down. The same oral tradition the Catholic Church has continued to pass down. You still can’t show me in Bible where the Bible Alone is the sole infallible rule of our faith.

The Bible equips you (with the right teacher) but not in and of itself.

You mean the oral tradition that Jesus broke and said to the Pharisees, that they break Gods law by their tradition?

 

[BamaPapist]

Now we have the full and complete sacred writings of all those word's orated and taught. That God deemed sufficient for us.

As seen by what Paul says in verse 14 (2 Tim 3).

and also what John who lived to the AD 90's says.

Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:30–31, NIV)

So its up to you whether you believe scripture sufficient or insufficient for all matters of faith.

Here’s the thing, you can read the Bible and come to a lot of conclusions that don’t matter. Not every verse in the Bible needs to be understood clearly, just the ones about our Salvation. I can tell you probably agree with that.

My biggest problem with Sola Scriptura is that it fails Christians in that regard. Baptism, Justification, Eucharist, Repentance of Sins, Original Sin, the Canon of Scripture...all are necessary things to understand to arrive at our understanding of how someone is saved.

Yet men of God all over the world go to the Bible alone and can’t agree on these central things. God did better for us than that. He gave use a Church to guide us to the understanding we need to be saved.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

I see we have someone with a very offensive name disliking those who disagree with RCC...

called
SHUTUPFCKNGHERETICALWORM can someone ban this guy?

Who is admining on this site. There are at least three troll accounts.

 

[BamaPapist]

What do you mean by this then?
"Exactly, so why would Christ mention asking our departed brothers and sisters in heaven to pray".

It would not make sense for Jesus to tell other Christians to ask souls of departed Christians in Heaven to pray for us if there were no Christians in Heaven at that time.

Christ also couldn’t of told Christians to listen to Paul’s epistles because they weren’t written yet.

 

[BamaPapist]

You mean the oral tradition that Jesus broke and said to the Pharisees, that they break Gods law by their tradition?

No I’m referring to this Tradition that Paul is talking about:
1 Corinthians Ch 11:2
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

Here’s the thing, you can read the Bible and come to a lot of conclusions that don’t matter. Not every verse in the Bible needs to be understood clearly, just the ones about our Salvation. I can tell you probably agree with that.

No I do not agree with this.

My biggest problem with Sola Scriptura is that it fails Christians in that regard. Baptism, Justification, Eucharist, Repentance of Sins, Original Sin, the Canon of Scripture...all are necessary things to understand to arrive at our understanding of how someone is saved.

While I agree with Baptism, Justification, Eucharist, repentance of sin, and Original sin are necessary to understand. It is through scripture that we understand these things.

Yet men of God all over the world go to the Bible alone and can’t agree on these central things. God did better for us than that. He gave use a Church to guide us to the understanding we need to be saved.

To an extent I agree here. The problem is that "the Church" has proven itself to be easily swayed by it's leaders to no biblical ideas. The Church has to be regulated by written scripture, and anything a church leader says needs to be compared to scripture before accepted. The barean church is am exemplification.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

It would not make sense for Jesus to tell other Christians to ask souls of departed Christians in Heaven to pray for us if there were no Christians in Heaven at that time.

Christ also couldn’t of told Christians to listen to Paul’s epistles because they weren’t written yet.

I quoted you.

 

[phil36]

Here’s the thing, you can read the Bible and come to a lot of conclusions that don’t matter. Not every verse in the Bible needs to be understood clearly, just the ones about our Salvation. I can tell you probably agree with that.

My biggest problem with Sola Scriptura is that it fails Christians in that regard. Baptism, Justification, Eucharist, Repentance of Sins, Original Sin, the Canon of Scripture...all are necessary things to understand to arrive at our understanding of how someone is saved.

Yet men of God all over the world go to the Bible alone and can’t agree on these central things. God did better for us than that. He gave use a Church to guide us to the understanding we need to be saved.

So what you are saying is that scripture on its own is deficient for matters of faith.

That's your decision.. Is God's inerrant word sufficient or deficient.. you choose deficient.

 

[BamaPapist]

So what you are saying is that scripture on its own is deficient for matters of faith.

That's your decision.. Is God's inerrant word sufficient or deficient.. you choose deficient.

Sola Scriptura is deficient, not the Bible.

 

[S3RV4NT]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word WAS/IS God and God WAS/IS The Word.

Taken from your OWN quote. Does this match YOUR Trinity diagram?

NO, it does not.

(NOTE: Before the flash point of creation. The Word/Jesus (Rev 13:19) was with God (The Father) and was/is also God)

The FLASH point of creation? BIG BANG heresy and blasphemy of science-so-called?

Again, you are proving ONENESS, not Trinity. They are the same person, NOT 'distinct' from one another.

Webster's New World Dictionary, copyright 1968

Distinct ... 1. not alike; different 2. not the same; separate; individual

Jn 16:28 Jesus said, I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father
(NOTE: The SON of God/Jesus say's, He came forth from the Father. He will return to the Father. Although, The Son is ONE WITH, he's NOT the Father)

Wrong.

Jn 17:5 O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(NOTE: Before the world began, the Son, enjoyed glory "WITH" the Father. "NOT AS" the Father)

In Mark 12:28-30, Jesus states that the most important aspect of all of scripture is this: "The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:" that is ONE 'HE' entity. NOT 3 PERSONS in one as Trinity claims.

God is ONE PRONOUN, NOT one "it/thing", NOT one 'Unity/Union" ... ONE GOD. One person. Period.

When Jesus prays to the Father:
(Question: Does Jesus pray to himself?)

Apparently He does in some way.

The Father is 'spirit' ...
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in Truth." (John 4:24)

...He exists in a higher vibrational dimension where there is no time because time is a created thing. If God created TIME, then it does not exist where He exists.

"...one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."(2 Pet. 3:8) This means there is no concept of 'TIME' where He exists.

...He also sees the end from the beginning for this reason.

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, ..."(Is. 46:10)

Jesus Christ was 'in-the-flesh' when He prayed to the Father. That means He, at that time, existed in a lower vibrational dimension and was thus 'less' than the Father. He even claims that He was not yet ascended which proves that He was 'less' than the Father at that time. Once He was again Glorified, He was again just as the Father is.

Before His crucifixion, Jesus prayed this prayer to the Father:

"And now, O Father, glorify thou Me with thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was." (John 17:5)

John 14:28 Jesus say's, the Father is greater then him:
(Question: Is this scripture wrong or did Jesus lie here?)

No. Jesus does not lie. The Father was greater at that moment. The Father was in the spirit and glorified, Jesus was in the flesh.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
(Question: Did/does Jesus send himself?)

God sent Himself into the flesh ... into His own story. The Author stepped onto the stage for a time to clarify Himself and to be an example to all who would follow Him to the end of time. God wrote the Bible, and gave guidance in every way imaginable, to save His beloved elect from the attempts of 'death' to destroy His creation and His plan.

Is Jesus returning to himself? Rereading I came from the Father (Jn 3:16 God sent his Son) I leave this world & return to the Father)

Yes, He did. And, once glorified, He sent the Spirit of the Father and Son (which 'IS' the Father and Son - unlike Trinity) to those He so chose. For whatever reason, He could/would not do that before He was once again ONE, and glorified, with the Father.

This also proves ONENESS in that IF the Father, Son and HG were 'separate' ,'distinct' persons, the HG could have been sent while Jesus was in the flesh upon the earth. It could not be.

Heb 10:12 (B&C) after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
(Question: Does Jesus sit down next to himself?) BTW this isn't the earthly/flestlyJesus, its the risen/glorified Jesus)

Your own Trinity doctrine claims that 'right hand' is simply an affirmation of equality with the Father.

The “right hand” is seen as a place of honor and status throughout the biblical text. When the Bible makes statements that Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of the Father, it is affirming that he has equal status to the Father

https://www.gcu.edu/blog/theology-m... Father&text=The “right hand” is seen,7:55-56).

I tend to agree.

The second part of that question has already been answered.

Rev 5:7 And he (Vs 5, the Loin of the tribe of Juda, Vs 6 the Lamb) came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
(My Note: Here again, this isn't the fleshly/earthly Jesus. This is the risen/glorified Jesus. Question: Does the risen/glorified Jesus/Lamb/Christ take the book from himself?)

In my research and study of the Bible, I have come to the conclusion that the lion and the Lamb are not the same person, and they are NOT both God. That is a topic for an entire 'nother thread altogether.

The rest of your post has been answered above.

 

[phil36]

Sola Scriptura is deficient, not the Bible.

Sola scriptura means the bible is sufficient, inerrant, infallable etc etc.. Anyhow its been good chatting with you .

 

[S3RV4NT]

That should be 'E' for excellence. Your argument has been fully refuted and put to rest.

Mmmm ... no.

Not hardly.

 

[S3RV4NT]

Some things to consider.

...

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are not names, and it is name singular, and Jesus is a name like Jehovah is a name.

This is saying that they will share the same name and that name is Jesus.

Jesus came in His Father's name which is Jesus.

Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

The Son inherited the name Jesus from the Father.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Ghost comes in the name of Jesus.

Jesus is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles were all baptized in Jesus' name in the book of Acts.

The Bible says all we do in word and deed is to be done in the name of Jesus so why would we say Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in baptism if all we do in word and deed is to be done in Jesus' name.

The Bible says that there is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved but by the name of Jesus so why would we baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost which those are titles not names.

Is Father your name.

Is Son your name.

Is the spirit in you your name.

The truth is there is no trinity but only one God the Father, who is above all, and through all, and in you all, like the Bible says.

And things can be explained that they think is a trinity but it is not a trinity.

The Bible says there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus said all power is given unto Him in heaven and earth.

There is only one throne in heaven and one who sits on that throne not 2 thrones in heaven, and it is the throne of God and the Lamb, God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

...

God's right hand represents power, wisdom, and salvation.

...

The titles are the 3 relationships God has with His children designated by titles.

Father- Creator and parent of the saints.

Son- God's visible relationship to the saints, and God in physical activity.

Holy Spirit- God's invisible relationship to the saints, and God in invisible activity.

...

There is no trinity, and it is not found in scriptures because there is no trinity.

...

The trinity is a pagan belief which the Roman Catholic Church embraced because their foundation is of the paganism and that is how they interpret scriptures.

...

They can never prove there is a trinity an any attempt they try to make can easily be explained that it does not mean a trinity.

You are correct, Sir.

God bless you.

P.S. I like your Isaiah 9:6 verse. If we are to follow Trinity doctrine, we would have a FIVE PERSON GOD according to that verse.

 

[Magenta]

Who is admining on this site. There are at least three troll accounts.

Bamapapist and the red X troll (the one calling us heretical worms ) are both banned now...

Thank you, @Oncefallen

 

[S3RV4NT]

Father, Son and Holy Spirit were ALL present AND separate at Jesus’s baptism.

Definitive proof of the Trinity.

With respect, it is not.

The Father does now, and always has, existed OUTSIDE of time and space (i.e. matter). For He created them. Therefore, the Creator cannot originate, or exist, within His creation.

Verses that prove this:
"...beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (2 Pet. 3:8)

Many claim this proves that a day to God is as a thousand years to US, but they stop there. They do not ever quote the rest of the verse.

One day upon the earth is as a thousand years to God, AND a thousand years upon the earth is as ONE DAY to God.

Thus, 2 Peter 3:8 is claiming that God exists outside of time. Observe:

"For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." (Psalm 90:4) Because God exists, and observes the earth dimension/realm, from OUTSIDE of time.

Our world is made up of 3 dimensions. Space, Time and Matter. God's dimension is NOT. There is no space, because space is relevant to matter. There is no time for the same reason and there is no matter. Everything is spirit.

Therefore, God the Father is in the realm of spirit when He speaks to Jesus (who is in the flesh, in the world of matter at that time). God sends His spirit to Jesus to help Him to finish out His ministry upon the earth. This did not take God out of the spirit realm because there is no time in that realm. Meaning God exists there eternally, before AND after the moment of Jesus' baptism.

Thus, these are not THREE SEPARATE and DISTINCT persons. They are ONE.

When Jesus was glorified after His crucifixion, He returned to the Father from whence He originated to AGAIN be ONE with Him as He was before creation.

Jesus' prayer to His Father before His crucifixion:

"And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was." (John 17:5)

The doctrine of the Trinity is "TAUGHT" nowhere in scripture.

Not by God...
Not by Moses...
Not by Jesus...
Not by ANY disciple...
Not by ANY apostle.

Any verse that describes God in multiple ways IS NOT proof of the Trinity TEACHING.

 

[S3RV4NT]

As a kid I though that was weird that our God was 3 in one and I asked my parents one day why is God 3 persons she don’t know the answer to my question and I’m 20 now I still have the same question.

You are on the right track and you are honest about your perception. That is a great sign.

Keep questioning and keep studying and keep praying and researching God's Word. Trust the Bible first over any church or pastor/preacher.

"...the Holy Spirit which you have received from God lives in you, and you need NO MAN to teach you anything: the Holy Spirit teaches you all things, and is The Truth, and is not a lie, and as it continues to teach you, you will live in Christ." (1 John 2:27)

 

[S3RV4NT]

1 John 5:7-8KJV
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

This verse is referred to as the Johannine Comma. It is the most highly debated verse in all of scripture as to its authenticity.

Many life-long adherents and scholars of God's Word believe it to be an added verse by the early Roman Catholic Church.

Regardless, it does not EXPLAIN or TEACH the doctrine of the Trinity. There are over 31 THOUSAND verses in the Bible. When people bring out Matt. 28:19 OR 1 Jn. 5:7-8, and insist that these are the final word on a man-made doctrine, it clearly exposes the woefully lacking evidence of the extra-biblical doctrine of the Trinity within scripture.

For the record, these are 3 aspects/characteristics of God, BUT they are ALL GOD.

Me, myself and I are ALL ME. Me is myself, myself is I and I is Me.

This contradicts the Trinity statement that they are not each other, and that they are separate persons within the Godhead.

The Holy Spirit IS the Father AND IS the Son.

 

[Magenta]

The Father does now, and always has, existed OUTSIDE of time and space (i.e. matter). For
He created them. Therefore, the Creator cannot originate, or exist, within His creation.

All things were created by Jesus, Who inhabited space and time.

He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. John 1:10

 

[S3RV4NT]

The Father does now, and always has, existed OUTSIDE of time and space (i.e. matter). For
He created them. Therefore, the Creator cannot originate, or exist, within His creation.

All things were created by Jesus, Who inhabited space and time.

He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. John 1:10

He didn't inhabit space and time until He was born in the flesh. Therefore He didn't inhabit the world WHILE He was creating it, His physical body did not exist yet.

He was in the world during His physical life upon the earth.

The world WAS made by Him, but NOT while He was physically in it. Kind of a catch-22 there. Can't be inside something that doesn't exist yet. God is eternal, the world is not. God existed eternally before the world and will exist for eternity after the world.

The world (people in the world) knew Him not during the time of His physical existence upon the earth; besides those He chose to reveal Himself to.

Yes, the essence of Jesus is the Creator and yes, Jesus did exist within His creation for a time. The Father was outside of the 3-dimensional world at the time of Jesus' baptism, thus He was not a SEPARATE entity who was present at Jesus' baptism. Jesus and God are one and the same. They are of the same essence.