The Trinity Doctrine in the Bible
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B
Hmmm ... so what is your opinion of Martin Luther, John Wycliffe, William Tyndale, Huss, Jerome, Erasmus, Zwingli, John Knox, Baxter, Flavel, Alleine and all others who opposed their work?
And the countless unnamed martyrs who died in defiance of their work? Were they, too, casting shade upon the Holy Word of God?
And the countless unnamed martyrs who died in defiance of their work? Were they, too, casting shade upon the Holy Word of God?
B
The book we have called the bible was not a book at all until after the council of nicaea. Those guys chose what writing went into the book. They did by inspiration of God. Or they did is as false prophets and our Bible is the work of false teachers, not inspired by God. Because it wasn't a book at all until they compiled the letters and decided what went in and what did not. Many writings did not.
And that's the thing they were either inspired by God or they were wicked deceivers, false prophets and their work not trustworthy.
And that's the thing they were either inspired by God or they were wicked deceivers, false prophets and their work not trustworthy.
To find out, click on the link from Beyond Today magazine:
https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/is-god-a-trinity/is-the-trinity-biblical
All that counsel did was remove many books of the Bible. Mostly the known Apocrypha, though there are many others like Jasher, Jubilees, Testimony of Solomon, Enoch, etc.
They had no bearing at all on the contents of scripture, though it IS believed certain small things have been changed/added like the Johannine Comma and Matthew 28:19. The meat of the scripture as a whole is in tact.
They had no bearing at all on the contents of scripture, though it IS believed certain small things have been changed/added like the Johannine Comma and Matthew 28:19. The meat of the scripture as a whole is in tact.
B
No sir. there were many writings and some got rejected, as not even Apocrypha. They literally decided what was inspired and what was not, they decided what apocrypha would be included, and flat out rejected many writings. They decided what was in and what was out. They were either inspired of God or were not. Because they also adopted the nicaean creed, and the athanasian creed.
Can't have it both ways. Or however it suits you. Either their work was inspired or it was not.
Can't have it both ways. Or however it suits you. Either their work was inspired or it was not.
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Of course there are good sources out there that can give you all the Scriptural information you need explaining the Trinity. Lots of good preachers out there who would do that for you. You just have to google it or youtube it.
Although I would like to give you my understanding of what the Trinity or the Triune God means and how there can be three persons in one God because you asked for Biblical references. I'll do my best to give you some references which I feel are relevant to this topic. I have not read the other various replies so many have already given and some of what I'm about to share I might be repeating what they've already shared. But, I'm going ahead and answering your question.
To answer you question:
This is going to be a very lengthy explanation which I am going to give. So, pardon me if it is a little long and full of Biblical passages. I have quoted full passages/ chapters from the Bible and they are quite self explanatory. It would be more time consuming if I tried to explain the exact meaning, but I'll do my best.
It's very plainly explained by Jesus Himself when you read the four Gospels about the Triune nature of Our God. The three persons in One God. God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit. Jesus would often call God as Abba (Father). And Jesus would often talk about the coming of the Holy Spirit once His time on earth is completed. I'm going to share the following passage and Jesus gives the explanation of the nature of Our God Himself. It's pretty self explanatory as you read it.
***********
John
Chapter 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
*****
The passage is lengthy, but it explains how God refers to Himself as The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit). This should be enough to convince a new believer about the three persons who are but One God. It is one of the great mysteries of our faith. We just believe it and not dwell on the hows and whys because we are raised to believe in God. But a new comer would have these questions.
I'll share another passage which would explain to you the Trinity below:
*************
Christ’s Birth Announced to Mary
26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; [a]blessed are you among women!”
29 But [b]when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I [c]do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”
38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.
Luke 1:26-38
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to be continued
Although I would like to give you my understanding of what the Trinity or the Triune God means and how there can be three persons in one God because you asked for Biblical references. I'll do my best to give you some references which I feel are relevant to this topic. I have not read the other various replies so many have already given and some of what I'm about to share I might be repeating what they've already shared. But, I'm going ahead and answering your question.
To answer you question:
This is going to be a very lengthy explanation which I am going to give. So, pardon me if it is a little long and full of Biblical passages. I have quoted full passages/ chapters from the Bible and they are quite self explanatory. It would be more time consuming if I tried to explain the exact meaning, but I'll do my best.
It's very plainly explained by Jesus Himself when you read the four Gospels about the Triune nature of Our God. The three persons in One God. God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit. Jesus would often call God as Abba (Father). And Jesus would often talk about the coming of the Holy Spirit once His time on earth is completed. I'm going to share the following passage and Jesus gives the explanation of the nature of Our God Himself. It's pretty self explanatory as you read it.
***********
John
Chapter 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
*****
The passage is lengthy, but it explains how God refers to Himself as The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit). This should be enough to convince a new believer about the three persons who are but One God. It is one of the great mysteries of our faith. We just believe it and not dwell on the hows and whys because we are raised to believe in God. But a new comer would have these questions.
I'll share another passage which would explain to you the Trinity below:
*************
Christ’s Birth Announced to Mary
26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; [a]blessed are you among women!”
29 But [b]when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I [c]do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”
38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.
Luke 1:26-38
************
to be continued
Continuation:
So, even before Jesus was born, God was Triune in nature as given to us through The Bible. The passage above explains about the Holy Spirit descending upon Mary who was a virgin at the time and how she would conceive Jesus, God's Son by God's Holy Spirit. This passage clearly explains God as three persons. Three different persons, but the same God. And even the hierarchy of the greatness of each person is given in the above passages. Jesus says that He is not greater than His Father and He says that He will send the Helper (Holy Spirit) who will be with us for all time. It's a mystery. We just accept it and believe it with child like faith.
Also the book of Genesis Chapter 1 talks about God and the Holy Spirit.
*****
Genesis
Chapter 1 : 1-3
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
If you notice, The Bible says, "the Spirit of God", and God uttering His Word to create life on earth. "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."
And again, speaking of "The Word," That's who Jesus is. The Son of God is "God's Word." And this explained to us through John Chapter 1. You can read the entire chapter. It explains about the Trinity again. So there are references like this throughout the Bible. More references can be found in the book of Psalms and the books of the prophets.
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John Chapter 1: 1-34 - Passage not given here, please go through in your Bible.
******
This passage again explains the three persons in One God. In other Gospels, God the Father would say as the Holy Spirit descends on Jesus, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."
And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” - Matthew 3:17.
So all these are passages that support the truth which the Christian faith teaches us that God has three persons. The Trinity. But He is one God. It is one of the great mysteries of our faith. This is how I understand it. God bless you.
So, even before Jesus was born, God was Triune in nature as given to us through The Bible. The passage above explains about the Holy Spirit descending upon Mary who was a virgin at the time and how she would conceive Jesus, God's Son by God's Holy Spirit. This passage clearly explains God as three persons. Three different persons, but the same God. And even the hierarchy of the greatness of each person is given in the above passages. Jesus says that He is not greater than His Father and He says that He will send the Helper (Holy Spirit) who will be with us for all time. It's a mystery. We just accept it and believe it with child like faith.
Also the book of Genesis Chapter 1 talks about God and the Holy Spirit.
*****
Genesis
Chapter 1 : 1-3
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
If you notice, The Bible says, "the Spirit of God", and God uttering His Word to create life on earth. "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."
And again, speaking of "The Word," That's who Jesus is. The Son of God is "God's Word." And this explained to us through John Chapter 1. You can read the entire chapter. It explains about the Trinity again. So there are references like this throughout the Bible. More references can be found in the book of Psalms and the books of the prophets.
**********************
John Chapter 1: 1-34 - Passage not given here, please go through in your Bible.
******
This passage again explains the three persons in One God. In other Gospels, God the Father would say as the Holy Spirit descends on Jesus, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."
And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” - Matthew 3:17.
So all these are passages that support the truth which the Christian faith teaches us that God has three persons. The Trinity. But He is one God. It is one of the great mysteries of our faith. This is how I understand it. God bless you.
The thought that didn't get completed in that sentence was, "Therefore, the Creator cannot originiate, or exist, within His creation before it is created."
There's nothing to man up to, Post.
The logic is sound and it followed perfectly within the context of the rest of my post.
There's nothing to man up to, Post.
The logic is sound and it followed perfectly within the context of the rest of my post.
not even almighty God, could inhabit this nothingness since it did not exist
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This verse is referred to as the Johannine Comma. It is the most highly debated verse in all of scripture as to its authenticity.
Many life-long adherents and scholars of God's Word believe it to be an added verse by the early Roman Catholic Church.
Regardless, it does not EXPLAIN or TEACH the doctrine of the Trinity. There are over 31 THOUSAND verses in the Bible. When people bring out Matt. 28:19 OR 1 Jn. 5:7-8, and insist that these are the final word on a man-made doctrine, it clearly exposes the woefully lacking evidence of the extra-biblical doctrine of the Trinity within scripture.
For the record, these are 3 aspects/characteristics of God, BUT they are ALL GOD.
Me, myself and I are ALL ME. Me is myself, myself is I and I is Me.
This contradicts the Trinity statement that they are not each other, and that they are separate persons within the Godhead.
The Holy Spirit IS the Father AND IS the Son.
Many life-long adherents and scholars of God's Word believe it to be an added verse by the early Roman Catholic Church.
Regardless, it does not EXPLAIN or TEACH the doctrine of the Trinity. There are over 31 THOUSAND verses in the Bible. When people bring out Matt. 28:19 OR 1 Jn. 5:7-8, and insist that these are the final word on a man-made doctrine, it clearly exposes the woefully lacking evidence of the extra-biblical doctrine of the Trinity within scripture.
For the record, these are 3 aspects/characteristics of God, BUT they are ALL GOD.
Me, myself and I are ALL ME. Me is myself, myself is I and I is Me.
This contradicts the Trinity statement that they are not each other, and that they are separate persons within the Godhead.
The Holy Spirit IS the Father AND IS the Son.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
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I said Protestantism came about after Catholicism.
I did not say anything against the biblical beliefs that protestants had in common with the true churches that existed from Christ before Catholicism came along.
Why do you say I am wrong while agreeing with me at the same time???
The very word 'protestant' is based on the word 'protest' - which is what they did - against the Catholic Church.
By historical definition, there could be no protestants before Catholicism.
Therefore, as I said, Protestantism came about after Catholicism.
With exception to the first word ('wrong'), I already knew about, understand, and agree with everything you said in the above quote.
I did not say anything against the biblical beliefs that protestants had in common with the true churches that existed from Christ before Catholicism came along.
Why do you say I am wrong while agreeing with me at the same time???
The very word 'protestant' is based on the word 'protest' - which is what they did - against the Catholic Church.
By historical definition, there could be no protestants before Catholicism.
Therefore, as I said, Protestantism came about after Catholicism.
With exception to the first word ('wrong'), I already knew about, understand, and agree with everything you said in the above quote.
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Mountain out of a molehill?
Birth is a flash point, death is a flash point, I could have said water mark event. The point Christ is Gen 1 Creator God.
Our many differences begin here:
Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
The Hebrew word Echad translates One. However, echad/one, means UNITY not SINGULARITY.
Another example of echad: Gen 2:24 echad speaks about the husband & wife being ONE flesh. Husband & wife aren't a singular being. They are in unity with each other.
There is another Hebrew word, YACHID, this word means ABSOLUTE SINGULARITY. Yachid is never used as a reference to God.
Scripture proclaims: The Father, Son & Holy Spirit are all God.
Jesus is God: Isa 7:14 & 9:6, Micah 5:2, Matt 1:23, Jn 1:1 & 20:28, 1 Tim 3:16 Titus 2:13 Rom 9:5 Rev 1:8.
Holy Spirit (KJV always capitalized showing deity) is God: Ps 139:7-8, Acts 5:3-4 & 13:2, Eph 4:30, 1 Cor 2:10-11, 12:4-7, 2 Cor 3:16 & 13:14
Godhead verses KLV Act 17:29, Rom 1:20 , Col 2:9
Col 1:16 Christ CREATED ALL THINGS! God the Son/Christ/Jesus is our worlds Gen 1 creator)
Heb 1:2 God the Son MADE THE WORLDS! God the Son/Christ/Jesus is the Gen 1 creator)
John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(NOTE: The Word/Jesus (Rev 13:19) was with God (The Father) and Jesus was/is also God)
3 Christ MADE/CREATED ALL THINGS! Christ/Son of God is the Gen 1 creator)
Jn:
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(NOTE: God the Father gave his Son/Jesus)
6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
(NOTE: God the Son/Jesus say's; I was sent from heaven by the God the Father. God Father sends the Son & beginning with creation God the Son/Jesus begins the work of reconciliation /salvation. REREADING: Jesus say's He came to do the will of His Father that sent Him. Two persons here not ONE!)
Jn 8:23 Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
(NOTE: The SON of God/Jesus say's, he's from above & not from this world. REREADING: Jn 1:1 3:16 & 6:38 The Father sent Jesus [HE DOESEN"T SEND HIMSELF] to do HIS will)
Jn 16:28 Jesus said, I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father
(NOTE: The SON of God/Jesus say's, He came forth from the Father [JESUS DOESN'T LEAVE HIMSELF] He will return to the Father [HE'S NOT RETURNING TO HIMSELF, TO SIT NEXT TO HIMSELF, AT HIS OWN RIGHT HAND]. The Son is ONE WITH, he's NOT the Father)
Jn 17:5 O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(NOTE: Oh SELF, glorify ME with MYSELF [really?] Before the world began, the Son, enjoyed glory "WITH" the Father. "NOT AS" the Father)
Jn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the ""bosom of the Father"".
(NOTE: I submit to you, neither the Father or Son, are having an intimate relationship with one's self. PUN INTENDED)
The bond of: Fleshly oneness
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
QUESTION: Do they actually become the same person? NO!)
Mk 10:
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
(QUESTION: Do they literally become one in the same flesh? NO!)
1 Cor 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
(QUESTION: Again, do they literally become one in the same flesh? NO!)
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
(QUESTION: And again, do they literally become one in the same flesh? NO!)
Spiritual oneness:
Jn 10:30 I and my Father are one.
(NOTE: The Father & Son are connected/Spiritually & therefore are ONE Spiritually)
Jn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
(NOTE: I am in ME & ME in in I? NOPE! The Father is IN Me & I am IN the Father. TWO persons [SPIRITUALLY CONNECTED] not ONE!)
Jn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
(NOTE: Jesus say's; I'm in the Father & the Father's in me. Two persons [connected by God the Holy Spirit] Spiritual Oneness!)
Jn 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
(NOTE: Jesus say's; I'm in the Father & the Father's in me. Two persons [connected by God the Holy Spirit] Spiritual Oneness!)
Jn 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
(NOTE: Jesus say's; I'm in MY Father, you believers are IN Me & I'm IN you believer's. THREE persons [connected by God the Holy Spirit] = Spiritual Oneness!)
Jn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
(NOTE: Jesus referencing Vs 20 say's, Father, Son & believer. THREE persons [connected by God the Holy Spirit] = Spiritual Oneness!)
Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
(NOTE: Does one body = one person? NO! The millions/billions etc = ONE SPIRITUAL BODY)
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.
(NOTE: Christ is the head of the church: He is the savior of a large/numerous ""SPIRITUAL BODY OF ONE"")
1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
(NOTE: WAIT WHAT? There is a pecking order/RANK. [1] God the Father [2] God the Son [3] all believers. THREE persons [connected by God the Holy Spirit] = Spiritual Oneness!) )
Scripture states 4 TIMES: "God the Father" said to "God the Son" Sit at my right hand.
Ps 110:1, Matt 22:44, Lk 22:42 & here:
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(NOTE: The LORD isn't talking to HIMSELF!)
When Jesus prays [often] to the Father: HE ISN'T PRAYING TO HIMSELF!
Jn 14:28 Jesus say's, the Father is greater them Him! You're welcome to deny what Jesus said.
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
(NOTE: Jesus said: I came from the Father, I leave this world & return to the Father.
QUESTION: JESUS ISN'T RETURNING TO HIMSELF!)
Heb 10:12 (C) after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
(NOTE: This isn't the earthly Jesus. This is the risen/glorified Jesus & HE DOESN'T SIT DOWN NEXT TO HIMSELF)
Rev 5:
5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
(NOTE: Your notion that the Lamb [KJV translators capitalize LAMB showing deity] in this verse isn't Jesus is mind numbing)
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
(NOTE: Lamb [KJV translators capitalize LAMB showing deity]. You're welcome to deny
7 And he (VS 5 the Loin of the tribe of Juda, vs 6 the Lamb) came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
(NOTE: This is the risen/glorified Lamb/Jesus. DOESN'T TAKE THE BOOK OUT OF HIS OWN HAND!
Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, thru whom also He made the world
(NOTE: God the Father appointed God the Son HEIR of ALL things within our realm. Even though they are of the same Godly substance/fiery brilliance. It ALL belongs to the Father, they didn't/don't & have a CO-EQUAL RANL/share)
Find 3 post resurrection verses where God the Son SAT DOWN at the right hand (NOT on the throne) of God the Father (& NOT next to himself) Mk 16:19, Heb 1:3, Heb 10:12
God the Father sends God the Son:
Jn 3:16, 5:23, 30, 36 & 37, 6:38 & 39, 6:57, 8:42, 10;36, 12:49. Can anyone provide a scripture, where anyone sends the Father?
God the Father gives to God the Son: Jn 3:35, 5:22 & 26, 6:37&39, 10:29, 13:3 16:28. Can anyone provide a scripture, where anyone gives anything to the Father?
If the Father & Son are the same person, what's the point in any of the following verses? Everyone of these verses were written POST RESURRECTION! Gal 1:1 & 3, Eph 6:23, Php 2:11, 1 Th 1:1, 2 Ti 1:2, Tit 1:4, 1 Pe 1:2, 2 Pe 1:17, 2 Jn 1:3, Jud 1:1 Jude
Pay special attention vs 28!
1 Cor 15:
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
When all is complete/fulfilled (after the white throne). The Son will what? SUBJECT, ALL THINGS INCLUDING HIMSELF, unto the Father, that gave them to him.
You're welcome to believe whatever you choose.
May His grace be multiplied to you & yours. JJ
Birth is a flash point, death is a flash point, I could have said water mark event. The point Christ is Gen 1 Creator God.
Our many differences begin here:
Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
The Hebrew word Echad translates One. However, echad/one, means UNITY not SINGULARITY.
Another example of echad: Gen 2:24 echad speaks about the husband & wife being ONE flesh. Husband & wife aren't a singular being. They are in unity with each other.
There is another Hebrew word, YACHID, this word means ABSOLUTE SINGULARITY. Yachid is never used as a reference to God.
Scripture proclaims: The Father, Son & Holy Spirit are all God.
Jesus is God: Isa 7:14 & 9:6, Micah 5:2, Matt 1:23, Jn 1:1 & 20:28, 1 Tim 3:16 Titus 2:13 Rom 9:5 Rev 1:8.
Holy Spirit (KJV always capitalized showing deity) is God: Ps 139:7-8, Acts 5:3-4 & 13:2, Eph 4:30, 1 Cor 2:10-11, 12:4-7, 2 Cor 3:16 & 13:14
Godhead verses KLV Act 17:29, Rom 1:20 , Col 2:9
Col 1:16 Christ CREATED ALL THINGS! God the Son/Christ/Jesus is our worlds Gen 1 creator)
Heb 1:2 God the Son MADE THE WORLDS! God the Son/Christ/Jesus is the Gen 1 creator)
John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(NOTE: The Word/Jesus (Rev 13:19) was with God (The Father) and Jesus was/is also God)
3 Christ MADE/CREATED ALL THINGS! Christ/Son of God is the Gen 1 creator)
Jn:
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(NOTE: God the Father gave his Son/Jesus)
6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
(NOTE: God the Son/Jesus say's; I was sent from heaven by the God the Father. God Father sends the Son & beginning with creation God the Son/Jesus begins the work of reconciliation /salvation. REREADING: Jesus say's He came to do the will of His Father that sent Him. Two persons here not ONE!)
Jn 8:23 Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
(NOTE: The SON of God/Jesus say's, he's from above & not from this world. REREADING: Jn 1:1 3:16 & 6:38 The Father sent Jesus [HE DOESEN"T SEND HIMSELF] to do HIS will)
Jn 16:28 Jesus said, I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father
(NOTE: The SON of God/Jesus say's, He came forth from the Father [JESUS DOESN'T LEAVE HIMSELF] He will return to the Father [HE'S NOT RETURNING TO HIMSELF, TO SIT NEXT TO HIMSELF, AT HIS OWN RIGHT HAND]. The Son is ONE WITH, he's NOT the Father)
Jn 17:5 O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(NOTE: Oh SELF, glorify ME with MYSELF [really?] Before the world began, the Son, enjoyed glory "WITH" the Father. "NOT AS" the Father)
Jn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the ""bosom of the Father"".
(NOTE: I submit to you, neither the Father or Son, are having an intimate relationship with one's self. PUN INTENDED)
The bond of: Fleshly oneness
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
QUESTION: Do they actually become the same person? NO!)
Mk 10:
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
(QUESTION: Do they literally become one in the same flesh? NO!)
1 Cor 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
(QUESTION: Again, do they literally become one in the same flesh? NO!)
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
(QUESTION: And again, do they literally become one in the same flesh? NO!)
Spiritual oneness:
Jn 10:30 I and my Father are one.
(NOTE: The Father & Son are connected/Spiritually & therefore are ONE Spiritually)
Jn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
(NOTE: I am in ME & ME in in I? NOPE! The Father is IN Me & I am IN the Father. TWO persons [SPIRITUALLY CONNECTED] not ONE!)
Jn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
(NOTE: Jesus say's; I'm in the Father & the Father's in me. Two persons [connected by God the Holy Spirit] Spiritual Oneness!)
Jn 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
(NOTE: Jesus say's; I'm in the Father & the Father's in me. Two persons [connected by God the Holy Spirit] Spiritual Oneness!)
Jn 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
(NOTE: Jesus say's; I'm in MY Father, you believers are IN Me & I'm IN you believer's. THREE persons [connected by God the Holy Spirit] = Spiritual Oneness!)
Jn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
(NOTE: Jesus referencing Vs 20 say's, Father, Son & believer. THREE persons [connected by God the Holy Spirit] = Spiritual Oneness!)
Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
(NOTE: Does one body = one person? NO! The millions/billions etc = ONE SPIRITUAL BODY)
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.
(NOTE: Christ is the head of the church: He is the savior of a large/numerous ""SPIRITUAL BODY OF ONE"")
1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
(NOTE: WAIT WHAT? There is a pecking order/RANK. [1] God the Father [2] God the Son [3] all believers. THREE persons [connected by God the Holy Spirit] = Spiritual Oneness!) )
Scripture states 4 TIMES: "God the Father" said to "God the Son" Sit at my right hand.
Ps 110:1, Matt 22:44, Lk 22:42 & here:
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(NOTE: The LORD isn't talking to HIMSELF!)
When Jesus prays [often] to the Father: HE ISN'T PRAYING TO HIMSELF!
Jn 14:28 Jesus say's, the Father is greater them Him! You're welcome to deny what Jesus said.
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
(NOTE: Jesus said: I came from the Father, I leave this world & return to the Father.
QUESTION: JESUS ISN'T RETURNING TO HIMSELF!)
Heb 10:12 (C) after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
(NOTE: This isn't the earthly Jesus. This is the risen/glorified Jesus & HE DOESN'T SIT DOWN NEXT TO HIMSELF)
Rev 5:
5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
(NOTE: Your notion that the Lamb [KJV translators capitalize LAMB showing deity] in this verse isn't Jesus is mind numbing)
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
(NOTE: Lamb [KJV translators capitalize LAMB showing deity]. You're welcome to deny
7 And he (VS 5 the Loin of the tribe of Juda, vs 6 the Lamb) came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
(NOTE: This is the risen/glorified Lamb/Jesus. DOESN'T TAKE THE BOOK OUT OF HIS OWN HAND!
Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, thru whom also He made the world
(NOTE: God the Father appointed God the Son HEIR of ALL things within our realm. Even though they are of the same Godly substance/fiery brilliance. It ALL belongs to the Father, they didn't/don't & have a CO-EQUAL RANL/share)
Find 3 post resurrection verses where God the Son SAT DOWN at the right hand (NOT on the throne) of God the Father (& NOT next to himself) Mk 16:19, Heb 1:3, Heb 10:12
God the Father sends God the Son:
Jn 3:16, 5:23, 30, 36 & 37, 6:38 & 39, 6:57, 8:42, 10;36, 12:49. Can anyone provide a scripture, where anyone sends the Father?
God the Father gives to God the Son: Jn 3:35, 5:22 & 26, 6:37&39, 10:29, 13:3 16:28. Can anyone provide a scripture, where anyone gives anything to the Father?
If the Father & Son are the same person, what's the point in any of the following verses? Everyone of these verses were written POST RESURRECTION! Gal 1:1 & 3, Eph 6:23, Php 2:11, 1 Th 1:1, 2 Ti 1:2, Tit 1:4, 1 Pe 1:2, 2 Pe 1:17, 2 Jn 1:3, Jud 1:1 Jude
Pay special attention vs 28!
1 Cor 15:
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
When all is complete/fulfilled (after the white throne). The Son will what? SUBJECT, ALL THINGS INCLUDING HIMSELF, unto the Father, that gave them to him.
You're welcome to believe whatever you choose.
May His grace be multiplied to you & yours. JJ
No dog in this fight but I enjoyed reading the conversation y’all were having.
That description you made above about Sola Scriptura isn’t exactly accurate though. Catholics believe the Bible is inerrant, infallible and materially sufficient. Sola Scriptura goes a bit farther and says the Bible is formally sufficient.
That description you made above about Sola Scriptura isn’t exactly accurate though. Catholics believe the Bible is inerrant, infallible and materially sufficient. Sola Scriptura goes a bit farther and says the Bible is formally sufficient.
Hi Godmyfortress, It is very accurate, maybe you mean it's not a full explanation of Sola Scriptura (I would concur).
Although RCC say that the bible is inerrant, infallible and as you state material sufficient. They put the magesterium (ex cathedra) as Infallible, thereby they elevate the magesterium (ex cathedra) as the sole authority on all things relating to faith. Therefore scripture itself is not 'all' sufficient (material sufficiency). And of course this is how they get around with all the false teachings that they have.
Whatever ever clever way people try and frame it. The RCC hold that scripture is not sufficient on its own. Which is contrary to what scripture itself teaches.
They are in error on perspicuity.
(I understand what you are trying to say)
Although RCC say that the bible is inerrant, infallible and as you state material sufficient. They put the magesterium (ex cathedra) as Infallible, thereby they elevate the magesterium (ex cathedra) as the sole authority on all things relating to faith. Therefore scripture itself is not 'all' sufficient (material sufficiency). And of course this is how they get around with all the false teachings that they have.
Whatever ever clever way people try and frame it. The RCC hold that scripture is not sufficient on its own. Which is contrary to what scripture itself teaches.
They are in error on perspicuity.
(I understand what you are trying to say
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Hi Godmyfortress, It is very accurate, maybe you mean it's not a full explanation of Sola Scriptura (I would concur).
Although RCC say that the bible is inerrant, infallible and as you state material sufficient. They put the magesterium (ex cathedra) as Infallible, thereby they elevate the magesterium (ex cathedra) as the sole authority on all things relating to faith. Therefore scripture itself is not 'all' sufficient (material sufficiency). And of course this is how they get around with all the false teachings that they have.
Whatever ever clever way people try and frame it. The RCC hold that scripture is not sufficient on its own. Which is contrary to what scripture itself teaches.
They are in error on perspicuity.
(I understand what you are trying to say)
Although RCC say that the bible is inerrant, infallible and as you state material sufficient. They put the magesterium (ex cathedra) as Infallible, thereby they elevate the magesterium (ex cathedra) as the sole authority on all things relating to faith. Therefore scripture itself is not 'all' sufficient (material sufficiency). And of course this is how they get around with all the false teachings that they have.
Whatever ever clever way people try and frame it. The RCC hold that scripture is not sufficient on its own. Which is contrary to what scripture itself teaches.
They are in error on perspicuity.
(I understand what you are trying to say
)
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1
- Show all