REVELATION STUDY

101G · Apr 29, 2021

Paul told them as Peter, "God is no RESPECTOR of PERSON, beye male, female, Jew or Gentile, we are all the same. which correctly proves no replacement theology.

see, Peter made it Clear in Acts 10:1 "There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,"
Acts 10:2 "A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway."

and Peter made it clear to him when he came to Cornelius, Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."
there it is.....

Rondonmon said:

Rapture? I don't believe in any Rapture, and here's why,
Matthew 13:24 "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:"
Matthew 13:25 "But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way."
Matthew 13:26 "But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also."
Matthew 13:27 "So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?"
Matthew 13:28 "He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?"
Matthew 13:29 "But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them."
Matthew 13:30 "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

so clearly the Lord said "both" grow together until the harvest. well the Lord Jesus cannot lie. so no one is going anywhere. the Good the Bad, and the Ugly will all be here intil he returns.

and as a matter of fact the "tars" will be harvest ... "FIRST", Uh O....

PICJAG,
101G.

lamad · Apr 29, 2021

101G said:

thanks for the reply, second, I'll make two post to answer your post here, (because of the amount of word liminatation). Just because you said no, don't change anything. as said the all the player in chapter 12 are in chapter 2 of the book of Matthews .
you said,
"Gen. 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun (Jacob) and the moon(Rachel) and the eleven stars(Josephs Brothers) made obeisance to me.

This who is the Sun, Moon and 12 Stars counting Joseph? Israel, not THE CHURCH.".

answer, the Sun and the Moon are symbilic of the A. Gospel, and B. the Law.

the Sun, the "HEALING OF THE NATIONS". Spiritual HEALING, the "GOSPEL", the Good News... "SALVATION TO ALL.
Malachi 4:2 "But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall."

Isaiah 53:5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

1 Peter 2:24 "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

Psalms 67:2 "That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations."

NOW, lets see it in REVELATION, Revelation 22:2 "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

so the "SUN" repersent the Gospel of "LIFE", Salvation. in which the woman, the UNIVERSAL CHURCH was clothed. meaning? amswer, Revelation 3:4 "Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy."

now the MOON, which was under the woman feet. which siginifed no more Law, (the Mosaic Law, a lesser light to walk by), but unto the Gospel of Christ, a GREATER LIGHT. Israel was walking by a dim light, the law, (only for them). it was a lamp unto her, Israel, feet. Supporting Scriptures, Prov 6:23 "For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life", now, Psalms 119:105 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path”. there it is, “the law was a lamp, (light) at her feet. just as the Sun is a greater light compared to the moon, a lesser light, so is the word of God, (the Gospel) is superior to the Law.

well we disagree with this assessment, and here's why..... this woman represent all of the nation Israel, (before the birth of the child), who remain faithful to God, the southern tribes, (meaning the remnant, for the nothern was taken away). this women represent a church, but is Israel the nation, or is she the remnant, a Church?. YES, Let the Scriptures speak for themselves. Acts 7:37 "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us". there she is, BINGO, the church in the wilderness". so Israel was a church, and by representation of this woman is found in FAITHFUL, (of the remnant).

NOW the The Dragon, the "RED" Dragon,
This great dragon is represented symbolically by king Herod, who in the secular world he was called “the great”, for his reconstruction efforts. remember this is symbolic. Of the devil who is a spirit, get others to do his dirty work, he just work behind the scenes. red here is symbolic for blood, for this king had much blood on his hands. supporting scriptures, Matt 2:16 "Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men”. he also had the blood of John the baptist on his hands. The ten horns is the power of the Roman Empire, which he, (king Herod), ruled by, (the romans). king Herod authority was supported by that power, the Roman Empire. so clearly he is a bloody, (red), dragon. as said, keep one hand on chapter 12 of revelation, and the other on Matthews chapter 2. this vision John is seeing is the birth of the Christ, the start of the Church, that the Lord Jesus christ is building, (amounf all NATIONS,)

Wow! How different than Jesus described those first five verses to me. He said, and I quote: "I chose to show John what the dragon did when I was a young boy, how he used King Herod to try and murder me. Those first five verses were a "history lesson" for John."

This is really very simple: God place the constellation Virgo in the sky when He created the universe - to represent the virgin birth. As John was shown - that is who Virgo appeared around Sept 1 in 2 BC: clothed with the Sun (the sun at her shoulder bathing her in sunlight), the moon at her feet and a crown of stars near her head. I searched the planetarium software from 10 BC to 10 AD. The exact picture was only at 2 BC.

This chapter was God introducing John to the Dragon, mentioned 32 times in the chapter.

lamad · Apr 29, 2021

101G said:

Paul told them as Peter, "God is no RESPECTOR of PERSON, beye male, female, Jew or Gentile, we are all the same. which correctly proves no replacement theology.

see, Peter made it Clear in Acts 10:1 "There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,"
Acts 10:2 "A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway."

and Peter made it clear to him when he came to Cornelius, Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."
there it is.....

Rapture? I don't believe in any Rapture, and here's why,
Matthew 13:24 "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:"
Matthew 13:25 "But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way."
Matthew 13:26 "But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also."
Matthew 13:27 "So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?"
Matthew 13:28 "He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?"
Matthew 13:29 "But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them."
Matthew 13:30 "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

so clearly the Lord said "both" grow together until the harvest. well the Lord Jesus cannot lie. so no one is going anywhere. the Good the Bad, and the Ugly will all be here intil he returns.

and as a matter of fact the "tars" will be harvest ... "FIRST", Uh O....

PICJAG,
101G.

This passage has no reference to the church. It is speaking of the 70th week. All the tares grow with the wheat during that time, and if you note the 6th trumpet judgment, the tares are taken first.

It must be this way because the rapture passage of scripture is just as true as these you posted.

awelight · Apr 29, 2021

101G said:

I can see how you might come to the conclusion there is no Rapture. Especially from the verses you gave here.

There is a sense in which the wheat grows up with the tares in every age. Just as today, there are tares in the church with the wheat and there are believers in the world with unbelievers. However, this final harvest is indeed at the end of the Great Tribulation.

You are correct when you say that the tares are the ones being gathered first. They are gathered for the purpose of judgement and will not enter in to the earthly presents of the Kingdom. This is discussed further on in Matthew:

Mat 24:37 And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

What was the days of Noah? The coming of the Judgement of the Lord. Only the eight chosen souls were saved by entering the Arc of safety and then the Lord closed the door. The rest of the worlds population was washed away. It will be the same at the end of the Tribulation.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two men be in the field; one is taken, and one is left:
Mat 24:41 two women shall be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not on what day your Lord cometh.

These verses are about the removal of unsaved tares going into judgement. The same thing spoken of in Mat. 13:30. Too often, individuals trying to hard to make a Rapture argument, use these verses as a proof of the Rapture in action. Here in Mat. 24:40-42, the ones left are the redeemed and shall enter into the Kingdom.

However, having said these things, does not imply that I do not believe in a Rapture --- I do. Here are a couple of thoughts and verses that I believe speak to the Rapture promise of the Church or Universal Assembly which Christ is building.

1 ) Enoch and Elijah were translated into Heaven, alive, which speaks to the possibility of an Assembly Rapture.
2) The following verses of promise our Lord gave to His Disciples in private:

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

It is very important here to notice that our Lord said, "receive you unto myself.." and did not say receive you in my heavenly abode. This promise harmonizes with what Paul wrote in: 1Th 4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Some believe that Paul was talking about the Second Coming but this would make no sense. If in Matthew 13:30, the wheat was to be gathered into the barn, which is synonymous with the earthly Kingdom, why would those going into the Kingdom, first go into the air? Only to then just come back down from where they were. This same logic applies to those who believe in a Post-Tribulation Rapture or what some call the Yo-Yo Rapture. You go up and then you come down.

3 ) Another verse of promise that seems to imply a Rapture of the Assembly:

Rev 3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Since I believe this "HOUR" that is coming to try the whole world is the Great Tribulation, then this would be evidence for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Some would say, that since the "hour" of trial is really the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation, they think it is evidence of a Mid-Tribulation Rapture. Of coarse if you are an A-Millennialist, then all of these things fall on deaf ears. But I believe the Scriptures teach a real, physical millennial Kingdom with a real, physical King of Kings.

Further thoughts about a Pre Tribulation Rapture are these:

1 ) Since God is now dealing with the remnant Jewish believers, the Assembly of Christ is no longer the primary object.
2 ) God has appointed 144,000 sealed witnesses for the Tribulation and will no longer need the witness of the Assembly. For both to be present at the same time would be redundant.
3 ) The Gospels and Revelation make it clear that Jerusalem is the center focus of the coming Tribulation and that God is pouring out His Wrath upon the unbelieving World. It is not logical to think that God would be pouring out His Wrath while the Assembly is still present. In the same way Noah's Ark floated safely above the judgement of God in the Great Flood, the Assembly will be safely with the Lord.

Just some things for your consideration.

Rondonmon · Apr 29, 2021

101G said:

Again, you seemingly only want to point out what YOU THINK you know, and not to discuss the back and forth posts, hereby, thus is why y fail at every turn, you cut corners.

Now, if you pondered what I had told you about Galatians 3, you MIGHT HAVE understood that the Jews will indeed GROW TOGETHER with the Wicked Tares until the very end, but all you can think of is "Church" where it should be Israel, thus you cant grasp God's deep truths because in your mind you have the answers, but you don't.

Rev. 14 is the Harvest Chapter. It runs for the full 7 years just lie Rev. 19. In verse 1 we see Jesus being met by the Jews on the Mountain '144,000 = the Jews who Repent. In verses 17-20 we see the Wicked Tares who will be placed in God's Wine-press of Wrath (or killed/Bundled into the grave to be Judged in 1000 years with Fire). Both happen, of course, at the very end, but in verse 14 we see a FLASHBACK, and Jesus Raptures the Church to Heaven from a CLOUD. The book of Revelation is not in Chronological Order.

Rev. 1 is Jesus in all HIs Glory (the Things you have seen).

Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age (The things WHICH ARE)

Rev. 4:1 is the Rapture by Jesus, everything from Rev. 4-22 is the (HEREAFTER).

Rev. 4 and 5 is the Church IN HEAVEN before the Seals are opened.

Rev. 6 is the Seals being opened but they DO NOTHING, Jesus Prophesies via each seal what is coming over the next 42 months.

Rev. 7 is the Jews (144,000 = 3-5 Million Jews) who repent and flee Judea. We see the Church in verses 9-17, IN HEAVEN.

Rev. 8 is the DOTL's starting point, the First Four Trumps are all ONE ASTEROID STRIKE. Seal #6 comes to pass with Trump #4.

Rev. 9 is the first Two Woes, a Demon horde, and an 200 million Angelic army that slays 1/3 of those who took the Mark of the Beast.

Rev. 15&16 come next, the 7th Trump is the 3rd Woe and the 3rd Woe is the final 7 Vials. IT IS DONE !!

Rev. 10 is a FLASH FORWARD to the very end, the 7 Thunders are the 7 Trumps, that's the mystery.

Rev. 11 starts 75 days BEFORE Rev. 8, and the Two-witnesses(2-W) die 75 days before the Beast dies. Rev. 11 is about the 2-W ministry.

Rev. 12, 13, 17, and 18 all Start via the Rev. 8 Asteroid Strike.

Rev. 12 Satan is cast out of Heaven and CHASES the Woman (Israel) for 1260 days (middle of the 70th week).

Rev. 13 is the Anti-Christ arising to power as THE BEAST and we know he rules 42 Months so 42 months and 1260 days are te same.

Rev. 17 is The Harlot (All False Religion of ALL TIME) being Judged, the Ati-Christ and his 10 Kings (Europe) kills off these Religions because there is NO PLACE for Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism anymore, ALL MEN must worship the Beast or die, Rev, 13 says so.

Rev. 18 like Rev. 17 both start with the Rev. 8 Asteroid Strike because Rev. 17 is the Anti-Cjrosy and his kings wielding their power, and Rev. 18 is God Judging the WHOLE WORLD (Babylon). Rev. 18:2 is Satan cast down to earth, and verse 4 is God calling Israel to Flee Judea so she receives not of this Harlots Plagues (the Worlds Plagues). NOTICE: Babylon is DESTROYED in ONE DAY and in ONE HOUR. Well, the Day of the Lord is that DAY and that lasts 42 months AND, in Rev. 17:12 we see the kings rule ONE HOUR with the Beast and we know that is 42 Months don't we? So, likewise, Babylon is DESTROYED in 42 months. God's Wrath thus lasts 42 months.

Rev. 19 like Rev. 14 covers 7 years, we see the Bride/Church IN HEAVEN Marrying the Lamb Jesus then returning on white horses with him while the Beast and his minions are still on the earth.

You take PARTS out of context because you don't know any better. Of course, the Jews will GROW with the WICKED TARES until the very end. As a Nation, they have been blinded, but as individuals, some Jews still come unto the Lord, of course. But they only repent as a Nation in Zechariah 13:8-9. Just before the DOTL.

You believing in the Rapture or not is going to stop the Rapture brother.

101G · Apr 30, 2021

Rondonmon said:

GINOLJC, to all.
It's not what I want, it's what the scriptures are saying. and it;s not what you think either... ok, so only you can post what you think is right, but i cannot? no,
now looking at your chronology, why not read in reverse from 12, then the seals, backward to the Church age which we are NOW IN.

Just a suggestion.

PICJAG,
101G.

Yahshua · Apr 30, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Ok...Here's the issue...and I"ve been trying to be gracious, but ok... You've minimized my argument to "repetitive mentions" and then followed your own logic through to then argue against it.

Your counter-argument would be valid if I only said, "well it's mentioned twice" but I gave quite a bit of information in post #267 as to why it's plausible (I specifically used this word) there are two groups, not just one. You've been trying to have me argue for a mere count when I'm arguing context. It's a bit of a strawman you've set up. I even agreed with you at the beginning of that post that merely counting is insufficient.

Next, I was showing the error in your counter-logic using the phrase "many times" to support your counter-argument against the argument you gave me...as well as using the word "literal" when dealing with a literary work. And all of this was precipitated by an initial reply of sarcasm instead of one where you simply communicated your point. lol

ewq1938 said:

Now you've switched the argument you gave me again to the iteration of a phrase. Another slightly different strawman from the last.

ewq1938 said:

There are also overcomers within the church of Philadelphia (Rev 3) that receive the name of the Father. Everyone who's the Father's is sealed with His name...and there's a lot of text that is covered between 7:4 and 14:1. So you're actually guilty of doing what you've been incorrectly accusing me of. You're taking instances without focusing on context.

My argument (not phrases...not counts...but context):

Time is the ultimate context.

There are TWO INSTANCES of a group of 144k mentioned: one in Revelation 7 and one in Revelation 14 (twice phrased ^_^) and IN CONTEXT the first is mentioned PRIOR TO the opening of the 7th seal, trumpets of judgment, and 1260 day testimony of the witnesses in Revelation 11. We know it's "prior to the trumpets" and not "parenthetical to the trumpets" because one of the trumpet judgments isn't allowed to touch those sealed (Rev 9). So they needed to be sealed first in order.

...While the second instance of 144k is mentioned "parenthetically" AFTER the description of the beast of Revelation 13 and 42 months of that beast ruling with power to overcome the saints.

The timeframe we're given - in different variations - is the marker we use to synchronize the different accounts in Revelation. The 1260-day testimony of the two witnesses (which includes the beast from the abyss warring with them) = the "42 months" mentioned in Revelation 13 of the beast warring with the saints.

----

With the time marker set, we can link a few prophetic images...

1) The beast from the Abyss (Rev 11) = Beast from the sea (Rev 13)

2) The two witnesses (Rev 11) = The saints overcome by the beast (Rev 13)

Next, let's go further and link prophetic text from other scripture...

- Revelation 7 says the 144k and great multitude (and we can debate whether these are the same group or two different groups) COME OUT OF great tribulation.

- Daniel 12 describes this same time as a "time of trouble" that lasts a time, times, and half time until the holy people are scattered.

...but Revelation 11 says the two witnesses minister during the 1260 days // 42 months (which is the same timeframe as time, times, and half time). This means that...

3) The 144K = the two witnesses = the saints overcome by the beast

----

With this setup, we focus on the imagery of the two witnesses.

- They have the miracles of both Moses & Elijah; the miracles of two prophets
- They are 2 olive trees & 2 lampstands
- They die because of the beast but are resurrected

With this knowledge, we go back to scripture and follow the clues...

Elijah was recorded as never dying but was taken into heaven alive, but Elisha died. Also, Elisha received a double-portion of Elijah's spirit performing double the miracles. So he was twice the prophet; he was Elijah but doubled. So it's plausible (here's this word again) that the 144,000 (who are the two witnesses in imagery, if we trust the clue) are a fulfillment of Elisha, not Elijah. And if Elisha then doubled prophecy...

...And if doubled, then we follow the breadcrumbs of all of the hidden twins in scripture (post #267). Here's another example not mentioned in that post:

- The twin sons of Judah (Gen 38) were BOTH considered "firstborn" because of what happened during their birth. They were one, but two. The firstborn was considered the "firstfruits" of the womb and automatically dedicated to the Almighty as His personal possession. Meanwhile, the 144k are called "firstborn unto God" in Revelation 14.

----

Finally, in this post (#237), I argue why the 1260 days // 42 months // time, times, and half time, can't reasonably be days as we measure them, but actually years. In addition to that, we're given "a day for a year" principle (in Ezekiel 4) when the Almighty prophesied through Ezekiel punishment that the nations of Israel were to suffer.

SO when we put all of this together, it's plausible (<--) that what we're actually looking for is a twinned group of sealed people living across these last approx two millennia that have minister against the beast (system), where half have died while the other half will never die. And when the Messiah returns in His "King David" fulfillment, He will raise the half that died into new bodies and transform the other living half and have His army on white horses as described in Revelation 19.

And as I pointed out, King David had 288k, which just so happens to be double the 144k number we're given in the text, which would fit all of the same clues we've followed with regard to that group.

----End----

The prophecies of Revelation were ONLY meant for the servants not everyone else, this is why it was given "signified" and in riddles, to make it difficult for everyone else to understand. It's just like what the Messiah said to His disciples during His ministry as to why He spoke in parables (Matthew 13). It wasn't for everyone to know. Do I have everything pieced together? Of course not...even what I've shared here is subject to change. But I know that if we remain on the surface with what we're given we're going to miss what we're being told...and that's by design.

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter and the glory of kings to search it out.

Matthew 13:44
44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.

We gotta dig.

Yahshua · Apr 30, 2021

A little correction to the previous post:

Yahshua said:

the 144k are called "firstfruits unto God" in Revelation 14.

Rondonmon · Apr 30, 2021

101G said:

No, I actually was called unto Eschatology, you and others play around and offer guesses. Remember, God will make us answer for everything, even if we ask for forgiveness, we are goi g t be asked why we didn't rely on the Holy Spirit of truth. The Prophets of old went into the desert/wilderness to get away from the influence of other men, you guys haven't learned to rely on the Holy Spirit, you guys REPEAT what other men have taught you. God wants to teach you Himself. You know why I know? For 30 years I did the same thing, then I asked God why we are stuck in a rut, why aren't we getting the "promised" nd time later rains, why are there 100s of interpretations of Babylon, the Harlot, the 144,000, etc., etc. an I got this "Ron, you guys already know everything".

I knew exactly what the Holy Spirit was telling me, we as young Christians see the book of Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel, etc. as way over our heads. so we listen to OTHER MEN, and their........THEIR UNDERSTANDINGS seep into our being, and they create ROADBLOCKS God has to try and overcome. Roadblocks like the Saints seen in Rev. 7:9-17 have to come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION, even though a proper reading of the book of Revelation tells us they CAN NOT come out f the 70th week. So, they come out of the GREAT Church Age Tribulation in reality, but we are STUCK on that which is impossible, according to scripture, no one gets raptured after the 70th-week starts, Jesus says so, Rev. 20:4 PROVE THAT also. But in OUR MINDS Great tribulation can only be greatest ever troubles, and can't be the LONGEST PERIOD OF TIME as in 2000 is GREATER than 7, even though that is what John is describing.

So, how did I learn all these things? I put off what I had been taught of men, I wiped the slate clean, and whenever I came unto a controversial, or contradictory verse, I simply did what I did in the Gospel's as a young Christian, I said "What does this mean Lord?" And He always shows me. So, being wrong is OK, God can deal with that, what He can't deal with is ROADBLOCKS or people who already know it all, when they don't know much of anything. THINK........Was that not the LEARNED Pharisee's problems? Jesus even told them that they had the "TRADITIONS OF MEN". That was their hangup also. This he chose BABES who would soak up his truths instead of so-called intellectuals who already knew everything.

lamad · May 2, 2021

Yahshua said:

Sorry, but the 42 months of authority does not start and finish in chapter 13. The verse of mention is when the 42 month countdown BEGINS. It will count down to zero at the coming of Jesus in chapter 19. In truth, chapter 12 and 14 are still midpoint chapters or slightly after the midpoint. The days of GT do not start until late in chapter 14, as seen by the beheaded starting to show up in heaven in chapter 15.

I personally believe the 144,000 were rapture at or near the midpoint of the week, marked by the 7th trumpet. The two witnesses will have just showed up so the testimony of the 144,000 will not be needed - if indeed that is what they were called to do. OF COURSE it is the same group! But now they are in heaven rejoicing as the first fruits of the Jews and Hebrews.

ewq1938 · May 2, 2021

lamad said:

Also in Revelation 11.

Yahshua · May 8, 2021

lamad said:

Ok, respect your viewpoint. But here's how the events of Revelation appear to follow (to me):

See how chapter 13 reads...

Revelation 13:2-5
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority ["exousia"].

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power ["exousia"] was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

So the text says authority ["exousia"] was given by the dragon to the 1st beast (i.e. beast of sea) to continue - in his authority - for only 42 months. Now we skip down and read...

Revelation 13:10-12
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power ["exousia"] of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

So the 2nd beast (i.e. beast of the earth) assumes all of the authority ["exousia"] of the first beast who received a deadly wound. The text doesn't say these beasts SHARE authority but that the 2nd beast exercises on behalf of the 1st beast ("poiei enōpion"). This implies the 1st beast no longer has the authority after its deadly wound. The connotation is "maiming".

So the 42 months of authority (to persecute the saints) that's mentioned is only for the 1st beast and then ends when the 2nd beast rises. Satan gave authority to the 1st beast...next, the 1st beast receives his deadly wound...and then the 2nd beast rises and takes it for himself...and we're not given a length of time for the 2nd beast in his authority.

lamad · May 8, 2021

Yahshua said:

Ok, respect your viewpoint. But here's how the events of Revelation appear to follow (to me):

See how chapter 13 reads...

Revelation 13:2-5
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority ["exousia"].

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power ["exousia"] was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

So the text says authority ["exousia"] was given by the dragon to the 1st beast (i.e. beast of sea) to continue - in his authority - for only 42 months. Now we skip down and read...

Revelation 13:10-12
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power ["exousia"] of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

So the 2nd beast (i.e. beast of the earth) assumes all of the authority ["exousia"] of the first beast who received a deadly wound. The text doesn't say these beasts SHARE authority but that the 2nd beast exercises on behalf of the 1st beast ("poiei enōpion"). This implies the 1st beast no longer has the authority after its deadly wound. The connotation is "maiming".

So the 42 months of authority (to persecute the saints) that's mentioned is only for the 1st beast and then ends when the 2nd beast rises. Satan gave authority to the 1st beast...next, the 1st beast receives his deadly wound...and then the 2nd beast rises and takes it for himself...and we're not given a length of time for the 2nd beast in his authority.

It is a theory, but the deadly wound was healed. I think they share. The second Beast defers to the first. The false miracles are to convince the world of the big lie: that the first beast is GOD.

ewq1938 · May 8, 2021

lamad said:

Actually that's reverse. The first beast defers to the second because the second exercises all of the power of the first beast. Paul's man of sin is the one we call the AC and it is he that performs deceiving miracles to prove his own claim of being God so that means the False Prophet is the Antichrist.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received
the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Here we read of the second beast, who performs miracles in the sight of the first beast and performing those miracles in order to deceive the people!

Paul's Antichrist was called the man of sin and he is described as doing the same things for the same reason as the false prophet:

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders

G5059
te´?a?
teras
Thayer Definition:
1) a prodigy, portent
2) miracle: performed by any one
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain affinity
Citing in TDNT: 8:113, 1170

Lying wonders is the same as deceiving miracles.

The false prophet and the man of sin are the same person, the Antichrist.

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

These horns are little horns of a young lamb which is a direct reference to the little horn Daniel wrote of who is also the one we know as the Antichrist.

G721
????´??
arnion
ar-nee'-on
Diminutive from G704; a lambkin: - lamb.
Total KJV occurrences: 30

The little horn of Daniel is commonly believed to be the AC John wrote about and in Revelation there is a person with two little horns who appears after the ten horned beast just as the little horn in Daniel appears after the ten horned beast. Clearly the same person is in mind here.

Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. Little horn is the antichrist.

Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. False prophet is the antichrist.

lamad · May 10, 2021

ewq1938 said:

I am going to disagree with you again.

Whenever John write "the beast" it is in reference to the first beast.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Revelation 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Revelation 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Without a doubt, it is the first Beast that is primary.

ewq1938 · May 10, 2021

lamad said:

The first beast was first, but not primary. The first beast is ten kings and kingdoms within 7 areas of land. These are ruled over by the second beast making him not only primary and highest of authority and power but the only singular person beast.

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.,
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men[/COLOR][/B],
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Not only does the second beast exercise ALL of the power of the first beast, he is the only one performing miracles by which he not the first beast deceived the world. He is the one who commands an image of the first beast to be made and causes it to come alive because of his tremendous God-like powers. He also decides who will be killed. He makes people receive the mark and that controls who can buy and sell.

Clearly the second beast is the primary ruler and highest authority.

lamad · May 10, 2021

ewq1938 said:

The first beast is ten kings and kingdoms within 7 areas of land.

19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The truth is, both are Men. These are two men. Verse 19:20 shows us "both." Your theory is bogus.

Why do you think the first beast loses all His power when it only says the second beast exercises all the power of the first beast. It does not say the first beast gave up all His power. It is only saying the second beast has the SAME power. So missing the truth of one verse, you ignore all the rest! I still disagree. Are there 23 verses about the second beast? No, only about the first. I still disagree. It is the first beast that takes out 3 of then, leaving 7, and he becomes the 8th king.

ewq1938 · May 10, 2021

lamad said:

Nope. A large empire can be considered "alive" before it is destroyed/conquered. Revelation 17 tells us the first beast is ten kings and kingdoms within 7 areas of land. It does not say there is a beast person included in it's explanation.

That empire needed a singular person to rule it. That's why the second beast exercises ALL of the first beasts power. If the FP was merely second in command he would be exercising PART of the first beast's power.

So you have decided to change the text from ALL to SAME? Smart choice. Excellent exegesis.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

lamad · May 11, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Daniel tells us that.

Dan. 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

ewq1938 · May 11, 2021

Yes but John did not see that happening. No horns are uprooted in his vision.

lamad said:

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