Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
So what must happen FIRST, before Christ's Second Advent is the rebellion and a/c revealed (v.3).

Read Paul's wording again... he is telling of ONE ITEM that must come *FIRST* [before "the DOTL" can be present] and NOT TWO ITEMS, as you are suggesting here.

Excuse me but v.1 has TWO items: "the coming of our Lord" AND "our geing gathered to Him".

And in v.3, Paul's words "that day" refers back to "the coming of our Lord".

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

In v.1 the red words occur together.
In v.3 the red words "that day" refers back, not to v.2 and "DotL", but v.1 and "the coming of our Lord".

You see, "DotL" begins with the Trib. And v.2 explains that the Trib has NOT occurred yet.

But v.3 is a specific refence to a specific DAY, which is the day that the Lord returns to earth to GATHER those who belong to Him.

You're welcome.

[this is also at root of your misconstruing Paul's actual point]

You didn't need brackets around your sentence. It's just more clutter.

And rather than misconstruing anything, I just explained what Paul was saying.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, I've not denied there is a "gathering" in Matt24:29-31 (just stating that it is NOT "our SNATCH"!)

Then WHEN are you going to explain what the "gathering" is or refers to?

Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with Isaiah 27:12-13... which you questioned in an earlier post, suggesting that it is "past" (along with the Isaiah 11:11-12,12:1-6 passages I supplied).

OK, great. You have a software program that can search out different words. And you found some verses where "gather" occurs.

So what does that prove? I am BEGGING you to explain what it means in Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2:1. Can you do that?

2:1 is not.

Uh, is not "what", exactly??? This is anything but clear.

2:8b is (and so is Matt24:29-31, as I've pointed out)... which is His "MANIFESTATION" / "SHALL SHEW / OPENLY MANIFEST" Rev19 [/1Tim6:15] / 2Th2:8b point in time.

This doesn't explain anything.

They are TWO DISTINCT ITEMS, at TWO DISTINCT POINTS-in-time, with MUCH transpiring BETWEEN those two distinct points-in-time.

Ditto here.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Uh, is not "what", exactly??? This is anything but clear.

When you read my post, can you not see what part I'm replying to (of yours) to see what it is I'm saying "2:1 is not" about?

(Maybe it doesn't show up in your screen the way it does in mine, when I read ppl's posts... who knows...)




"2:1 is not" His Second Coming to the earth (what you are calling His "Second Advent" / His "RETURN").

Rather, it is about "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (IN THE AIR... and NO ONE ELSE but "US" This is NOT His "MANIFESTATION" of v.8b )





2:1 is what takes place BEFORE the Day of the Lord [TRIB ASPECT] can be present to unfold upon the earth over the course of SOME TIME (and AFTER which ENTIRE TRIB ASPECT of the DOTL time-period, His v.8b "MANIFESTATION" will occur, at the Rev19 time-slot)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Excuse me but v.1 has TWO items: "the coming of our Lord" AND "our geing gathered to Him".

I think I said AT ONE POINT-IN-TIME (v.1 is covering ONE POINT IN TIME...), do you not agree?

And I've said in past posts:

--"the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ" speaks of "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" [... involving "US" *ONLY*] (...and thus is NOT speaking of His Second Coming to the earth point in time)

And in v.3, Paul's words "that day" refers back to "the coming of our Lord".

No it does not point back to v.1, but to the immediately-preceding verse's Subject (which is DISTINCT)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Excuse me but v.1 has TWO items: "the coming of our Lord" AND "our geing gathered to Him".

V.1 is speaking of one particular point in time

And in v.3, Paul's words "that day" refers back to "the coming of our Lord".

V.3 (which is what I was speaking to, where you'd quoted me with a DIFFERENT aspect of my answer) is speaking of TWO ITEMS, *ONE* of which is stated must come *FIRST* (not BOTH ITEMS in v.3 as *FIRST*)... That's what I was saying there...

 

[FreeGrace2]

When you read my post, can you not see what part I'm replying to (of yours) to see what it is I'm saying "2:1 is not" about?

No, your posts are more work and effort than it's worth. If you really want to be understood, stop the punctuations and just say what you mean, plainly. So NO, I STILL do not know what you think "coming of the Lord" refers to.

(Maybe it doesn't show up in your screen the way it does in mine, when I read ppl's posts... who knows...)

No, it's not about "ppl's posts", it's about YOUR posts.

"2:1 is not" His Second Coming to the earth (what you are calling His "Second Advent" / His "RETURN").

About 1,000 pages ago I got that from your posts. What I STILL don't have is what YOU think "the coming of our Lord" means or refers to. When are you going to do a reveal on your opinions?

Rather, it is about "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (IN THE AIR... and NO ONE ELSE but "US" This is NOT His "MANIFESTATION" of v.8b )

Actually, v.1 doesn't mention anything about air. And you keep missing the FIRST event, which is "the coming of our Lord".

I guess you just don't want to explain it, for some reason.

2:1 is what takes place BEFORE the Day of the Lord [TRIB ASPECT] can be present to unfold upon the earth over the course of SOME TIME (and AFTER which ENTIRE TRIB ASPECT of the DOTL time-period, His v.8b "MANIFESTATION" will occur, at the Rev19 time-slot)

Once again you have failed to explain WHAT "the coming of our Lord" means. All it seems you can do it place it before the DofL.

So I have to take it that you really don't know what it means then. OK.

 

[cv5]

Yeah, I apologize for the abundance of repetitiveness.

Some have acknowledged that they've not followed the thread, as in reading every post... thus, I find it necessary to [often] "repeat" what I've already said a thousand times already. lol

Absolutely keep repeating often and abundantly. It can only help penetrate the fog of unbelief.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Excuse me but v.1 has TWO items: "the coming of our Lord" AND "our geing gathered to Him".

I think I said AT ONE POINT-IN-TIME (v.1 is covering ONE POINT IN TIME...), do you not agree?

HuH? Do you not agree that v.1 contains 2 items?

1. "the coming of our Lord"
2. "and our beging gathered to Him"

And I've said in past posts:

--"the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ" speaks of "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" [... involving "US" *ONLY*] (...and thus is NOT speaking of His Second Coming to the earth point in time)

Well, some progress here. OK, then you DO AGREE that believers meet the Lord in the air, even though air is not mentioned.

Why do you keep emphasizing "us only". Who else are you leaving out? I wish you would be more clear.

No it does not point back to v.1, but to the immediately-preceding verse's Subject (which is DISTINCT)

You could have left your parenthesis out. It didn't make any difference. Just more clutter.

And you are wrong. The words "that day" absolutely does refer back to v.1 and "the coming of our Lord". As you have already noted, the DotL is a time period, not a single day.

And everyone recognizes that "that day" indicates A DAY. Not a period of days.

Your views are sure hard to figure out. You admit v.1 speaks of meeting the Lord in the air, which is classic rapture, but you seem to resist calling "the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him" to be the rapture.

Convoluted is what I think about your views.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You admit v.1 speaks of meeting the Lord in the air, which is classic rapture, but you seem to resist calling "the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him" to be the rapture.

Not so.


^ I've already stated it pages ago, but I'll write it yet again:

"... the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ, even OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"... IS ONE EVENT: "OUR Rapture" TO "the meeting OF THE LORD *IN THE AIR*"... to which He will have done the "SHALL DESCEND" thing, and WE participate in the "CAUGHT UP [/SNATCH]" thing (and ONLY *us* [/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY]... NO ONE ELSE)


[verse 1 is speaking ONLY of our Rapture event point in time; v.8b is NOT speaking of that]

 

[cv5]

Please don't omit Francisco Ribera and the RCC doctrine of FUTURISM where all the heresy began.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

There is certainly no futurism in today's RCC. Not even close not even a little bit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Excuse me but v.1 has TWO items: "the coming of our Lord" AND "our geing gathered to Him".

V.1 is speaking of one particular point in time

Well, of course. Both the "coming of our Lord", or the Second Advent AND "our being gathered to Him", or the rapture, DO occur at the same event.

V.3 (which is what I was speaking to, where you'd quoted me with a DIFFERENT aspect of my answer) is speaking of TWO ITEMS, *ONE* of which is stated must come *FIRST* (not BOTH ITEMS in v.3 as *FIRST*)... That's what I was saying there...

Instead of your "stealth mode" of communication, how about just STATING the "items" you reference?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TDW: No it does not point back to v.1, but to the immediately-preceding verse's Subject (which is DISTINCT)

You could have left your parenthesis out. It didn't make any difference. Just more clutter.

Yet I've seen you do the very same thing in one of your own posts on this very day.

Hypocritical and hyper-critical, much?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

FreeGrace2 said:
So what must happen FIRST, before Christ's Second Advent is the rebellion and a/c revealed (v.3).

Read Paul's wording again... he is telling of ONE ITEM that must come *FIRST* [before "the DOTL" can be present] and NOT TWO ITEMS, as you are suggesting here.

[this is also at root of your misconstruing Paul's actual point]

Instead of your "stealth mode" of communication, how about just STATING the "items" you reference?

We already started discussing that point, when you suddenly jerked the convo to a completely different point about v.1.




Stick to the point, this time... it's ALL stated in the above-quoted two posts we were discussing... re: v.3.

You were saying TWO things must come "FIRST".

Paul says ONE thing must come "FIRST".

Paul disagrees with you.

 

[cv5]

When attempting to learn Biblical truth, it is always considered wise to discern the context (big picture) of many verses as well as the over all theme. From this can truths be learned and doctrine formed. Unfortunately, doctrine is most often created first, followed by bits and pieces of scripture to shore up a leaky thought.

The passage in question is lifted from a larger section of Matthew 24. Specifically verses 26 to 31. This passage describes the harvesting of humanity and its spiritual destination or destiny. While verse 31 tells us that the elect (those who belong to Christ) will be gathered by ANGELS, verse 28 tells us where the others will go. The 'others' (most often quoted by rapture apologists as evidence) are gathered by some sort of demonic entities (called vultures or eagles) and taken to a place of destruction or death (NOT HEAVEN).

Unfortunately, learning this tidbit from the Bible requires READING from scripture rather than dictating to it.

People who justify the RCC doctrine of rapture cannot or will not be able to read and understand because their minds have been blocked from knowing the truth. They are persuaded by the Great Deception and cannot believe anything except the lies they've been fed.

Continue to believe the rapture if you insist upon it. The day will come when you will learn you've been following error.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

My friend you have been gfted with Scriptural truth of inestimable value. That is if you care to take heed of the sagacious, ineffably scrupulous exegesis presented on this thread that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the pretrib rapture is Biblically correct and therefore boilerplate doctrine.

And maybe it went over your head (zoom whoosh)......but everyone who knows what they're talking about understands that the Church is nowhere mentioned in Matthew 24.

Nowhere - Mentioned - In - Matthew 24.

 

[cv5]

We already started discussing that point, when you suddenly jerked the convo to a completely different point about v.1.

Stick to the point, this time... it's ALL stated in the above-quoted two posts were were discussing.

My dear friend, truly it has to be said that you have the patience of a Saint. I'm down to a "three strikes and you're out" policy........but given the example of your persistence I think I will have to modify that rule....

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You see, "DotL" begins with the Trib. And v.2 explains that the Trib has NOT occurred yet.

Would you mind clarifying what you've put here ^ in this whole quote?

Are *you* saying this, or are you merely quoting/repeating another's idea??

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Absolutely keep repeating often and abundantly. It can only help penetrate the fog of unbelief.

I can't help wondering if he's either just playing 'devil's advocate' (so to speak), or is trolling and yankin my chain...

 

[FreeGrace2]

TDW: No it does not point back to v.1, but to the immediately-preceding verse's Subject (which is DISTINCT)
You could have left your parenthesis out. It didn't make any difference. Just more clutter.

Yet I've seen you do the very same thing in one of your own posts on this very day.

Hypocritical and hyper-critical, much?

SInce this is fresh in your mind, why not cite the post #. That's how people prove their claims.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We already started discussing that point, when you suddenly jerked the convo to a completely different point about v.1.

Stick to the point, this time... it's ALL stated in the above-quoted two posts we were discussing... re: v.3.

You were saying TWO things must come "FIRST".

Paul says ONE thing must come "FIRST".

Paul disagrees with you.

Well, there you go again. Making references to things but FAILING to name the things.

You are not even trying to communicate.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You see, "DotL" begins with the Trib. And v.2 explains that the Trib has NOT occurred yet.

Would you mind clarifying what you've put here ^ in this whole quote?

Are *you* saying this, or are you merely quoting/repeating another's idea??

OK.

DotL means "Day of the Lord".

Trib means Tribulation.

NOT occurred means has not occurred yet.

As to your second question, you should know that I don't quote others. I quote the Bible.