TONGUES TODAY

[CS1]

Can YOU post words that are in responce to the thread and are not a personal attack or is that what you normally when you can not correctly answer questions posed to you?


Then how does someone speaking in gibberish that no one understands......edify...comfort and exhort????

What you just posted is exactly the opposite of what God said in 1 Corth 14:3-4............
"The one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. "

You see.....you are quick to post things that YOU want to do but you do not seem able to READ what God has said.

Now, do YOU want to read it again and change your post or are you going to ignore your mistake and double down?????

it's not what God has said it is what you have said about the Word of God that is wrong.

 

[1ofthem]

There are fakers out there. However, that does not deter from the fact that there is a genuine.

It's up to you to live in a way (close to God) where you can tell the difference.

I'm afraid a lot of you are going to be in serious trouble for lumping the fake and the genuine all together and in doing so speaking evil of a gift of the Spirit.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

There are fakers out there. However, that does not deter from the fact that there is a genuine.

It's up to you to live in a way (close to God) where you can tell the difference.

I'm afraid a lot of you are going to be in serious trouble for lumping the fake and the genuine all together and in doing so speaking evil of a gift of the Spirit.

Yes, agree, one side or the other is in Serious Trouble! Is it the side that
says: "Yes, the sign {sight?} gifts are in effect," today, Under God's GRACE?
(2Co_5 : 7 [Imperfect?] KJB!)

Or, is it the side that believes:

God's PERFECT Word Has Come? IF "It Has Come," Then "the SIGN gifts
Have Ceased, Correct? And, we can "live CLOSE To God," Correct? i.e:

"...we walk BY faith, NOT by sight!..." (2 Corinthians 5 : 7 [Perfect!] KJB!)

However:

IF God's Pure, Inspired, Infallible, And Profitable Word is NOT
"That Which Is PERFECT, And Has Come," then pray tell, what is it?

a) It has not come yet? b) It Has Come, BUT, "it is IMPERFECT"?

c) any OTHER choices??? d) How are these Confusions:

"living close To God"?

Be Blessed!

 

[JaumeJ]

I have to question your motives here. Are you saying that the Christian, who read the Word of God, studies that Word then does not have the discernment of the Holy Spirit?????

If not, would you care to explain Ephesians 5:11..........
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them."

I as well as you have done extensive study beginning in 1964 with post graduate work at DTS and Liberty. I too have traveled from USA to Africa, Israel, Nicaragua, Hatti and Costa Rica.

My work and studies have been in the area of Cults and religions and what they do and where they come from.

If you take the time to go to From Pagan to Christian: an archaeological study of the transformation of Corinth in Late Antiquity (macalester.edu) you will find a thesis for a B.A. which will detail the Pagan religions that were involoved in the church at Corinth from out of which came the practice of "Speaking in Tongues".

Now in Matthew 7:7.........
"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

What do YOU think Jesus was talking about???

We know too little of the details of the ritual of classical heathenism to be able to say how far the charge of vain repetition applied at this time to them. The cries of the worshippers of Baal “from morning even until noon” (1Kings 18:26), the shouts of those of Artemis at Ephesus “for the space of two hours” (Acts 19:34), may be taken as representative instances.

How could you not understand what I said of the Holy Spirit?

 

[JaumeJ]

I love this @JaumeJ ...
This little line just spoke to me...
You do not know why , but God does
...xox...

You never know, for I just may know.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Is the "Tongues" we see practiced today in churches all over the land actually Biblical and valid.......

The definition has changed. Now people speak about a "prayer language". In the New Testament (KJV) "tongues" simply means human languages spoken supernaturally (no training, coaching, practicing involved).

 

[wattie]

Is the "Tongues" we see practiced today in churches all over the land actually Biblical and valid........
OR is it an emotional exercise in religious fervor????

This topic has been thrashed put many times in this forum.

You gotta define what the gift of tongues is first.

The reason people would say it is emotionalism now and not the real deal is because the meaning has been given of 'private prayer language' or 'ecstatic utterances'

Neither of these things have much to do with earthly languages that the people spoke in Acts at Pentecost.

The people who heard the tongues were hearing their own language, from people that did not know the languages themselves. God was spreading His gospel, reaching other nations thru their languages.

Is this what is going on today?

From my own experience it is more emotionalism and ecstatic utterances rather than anything in the bible.

The tongues were even meant for the unbeliever as a sign.. where do you see it being used in that sense?


I would be more open to to tongues being used today if people were abiding by the boundaries around what it is and its use, as seen in Acts and written on by Paul.

This is not what is happening though as far as I have observed.
Last time I was at a service that people were supposedly speaking in tongues, the ENTIRE congregation tried speaking in tongues.

Is that 'decent and in order ' ?

Is anyone edified?

Where were the non believers?

See this is the problem.

 

[Absolutely]

As someone mentioned - here we go again.

In answer to the question, I guess it depends on who you ask - here's a Linguist's take.....

There is absolutely nothing mysterious about Biblical "tongues" – when referring to something spoken, they are nothing more than real, rational language(s); usually unknown to those listening to them, but always known by the speaker(s) – it’s their native language (in some cases, it is a language the speaker has learned).

In contrast, the “tongues” Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians are producing today is an entirely self-created phenomenon. It is non-cognitive non-language utterance; random free vocalization based upon a subset of the existing underlying sounds (called phonemes) of the speaker’s native language, and any other language(s) the speaker may be familiar with or have had contact with.

It is, in part, typically characterized by repetitive syllables, plays on sound patterns, alliteration, assonance, and over-simplification of syllable structure. It is also interesting to note that any disallowed sound combinations, i.e. consonant clusters, in the speaker’s native language are also disallowed in his/her tongues-speech. Further, this subset of phonemes typically contains only those sounds which are easiest to produce physiologically.

There is absolutely nothing that “tongues-speakers” are producing that cannot easily be explained in linguistic terms.

Conversely, when it comes to something spoken, there are absolutely no Biblical references to “tongues” that do not refer to, and cannot be explained in light of, real rational language(s), though it may not be the explanation you want to hear, and it may be one which is radically different from what you believe, or were taught.

“Praying in the Spirit” does not refer to the words one is saying. Rather, it refers to how one is praying. In the three places it is used (Corinthians, Ephesians, and Jude), there is absolutely zero reference to 'languages' in connection with this phrase. “Praying in the Spirit” should be understood as praying in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will. In Pentecostal/Charismatic parlance however, the phase has come to be equated with modern “tongues”, i.e. when one “prays in the Spirit”, one is typically engaged in some form of tongues-speech.

The word “tongue(s)” itself is simply a more archaic word for (real) “language(s)”, nothing more. Replace “tongue(s)” with “language(s)” in these various passages and the whole modern Pentecostal/Charismatic concept of “tongues” begins to become difficult to posit – “language(s)” sounds a lot less mysterious, and in many cases, adds more clarity to the text. Again, in Pentecostal/Charismatic parlance however, the word has come to be equated with the modern concept of “tongues-speech”.

Most people who use ‘tongues’ are very keen on describing the ‘experience’. Indeed, for those that use it, it is very psychologically, physically, and spiritually fulfilling. It’s almost like primal screaming. When people practice ‘tongues’, they feel a sense of sweet release and inner peace, in that virtually all stress can be gone after the experience.

People describe the experience, but in examining the “mechanics” behind it…well, not so much. When a person has experienced tongues, s/he is absolutely convinced as to the ‘scripturalness’ of his/her experience, and the correctness of his/her doctrinal beliefs – this, despite the overwhelming scriptural absence of anything remotely akin to what they’re doing.

I'm not doubting or questioning the 'experience'; as mentioned, glossolalia as the spiritual tool that it is, can be very powerful and, for many people, the experience is profound. Both the spiritual and physical benefits of using this tool are also well documented. Again though, it is important to note that this same statement can be made for virtually _any other culture that practices glossolalia_ . Religious and cultural differences aside, the glossolalia an Evenki Shaman in Siberia, a vodoun priestess in Togo and a Christian tongues-speaker in Alabama are producing are in no way different from each other. They’re all producing their glossolalia in the exact same way; they just have different explanations and beliefs as to why they’re doing it and where it comes from.

“Tongues” is to some Christian believers a very real and spiritually meaningful experience but consisting of emotional release via non-linguistic ‘free vocalizations’ at best; non-cognitive non language utterance – the subconscious playing with sounds to create what is perceived and interpreted as actual, meaningful speech. In some cases, I would argue that it is clearly a self/mass delusion prompted by such a strong desire to “experience God” that one creates that experience via “tongues”.

Known by many different names, “tongues”, “glossolalia”, or more accurately “non-cognitive non-language utterance” (NC-NLU), is practiced by many cultures and religious beliefs from literally all over the world; it is relatively new to Christianity and certainly not unique to it.

As a point of note, I’m a Linguist, and let me also add here that I am neither a so-called ‘cessationist’ nor a ‘continuationist’ – I do not identify with either term; in fact, I had never heard the two terms until just late in 2016. As far as I’m concerned, quite frankly, since the Biblical reference of “tongues” is to real, rational languages, obviously “tongues” haven’t “ceased”; people still speak.

Total bunch of baloney.

Paul said " my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful"

Some ignorant bible teachers cherry pick to support their mental leanings.

If tongues are just a known language, why would the audience need an interpreter?

Look at acts. " They heard them speak in their own languages."

Paul said their needed to be one present to interpret ...OTHERWISE THEY DID NOT KNOW WHAT WAS SAID.

mcarthur double talk.

Cessationists just plain need to jettisson the book of acts. And all references to the miraculous.
There is a miracle on almost every page.

You are a " mentalist".
..cessationist.
All cessationists are mental.

Your starting place is outside the spirit.

I have never met a botn again believer that had a mental salvation

Yet cessationists , after conversion, seek to MAKE THE BIBLE a mental book.

 

[Absolutely]

The definition has changed. Now people speak about a "prayer language". In the New Testament (KJV) "tongues" simply means human languages spoken supernaturally (no training, coaching, practicing involved).

Wrong and easily debunked

 

[Absolutely]

It's definitely not an "attack" - modern tongues-speech is what it is - non-cognitive non-language utterance. There just isn't anything you're producing that can't be explained in relatively simple linguistic terms. I'm not denying its strength/use as a spiritual tool, as I said, the "tongues experience" can be quite profound, but again, too - the same can be said for any culture that practices glossolalia.

To equate any religious/spiritual path which does not share the same beliefs as yours with somehow being "demonic" or "devil worship" is, no disrespect intended, absolutely ridiculous and religio-centric in the extreme.

No
He corrected you properly.
You are proven wrong.

 

[Absolutely]

This topic has been thrashed put many times in this forum.

You gotta define what the gift of tongues is first.

The reason people would say it is emotionalism now and not the real deal is because the meaning has been given of 'private prayer language' or 'ecstatic utterances'

Neither of these things have much to do with earthly languages that the people spoke in Acts at Pentecost.

The people who heard the tongues were hearing their own language, from people that did not know the languages themselves. God was spreading His gospel, reaching other nations thru their languages.

Is this what is going on today?

From my own experience it is more emotionalism and ecstatic utterances rather than anything in the bible.

The tongues were even meant for the unbeliever as a sign.. where do you see it being used in that sense?


I would be more open to to tongues being used today if people were abiding by the boundaries around what it is and its use, as seen in Acts and written on by Paul.

This is not what is happening though as far as I have observed.
Last time I was at a service that people were supposedly speaking in tongues, the ENTIRE congregation tried speaking in tongues.

Is that 'decent and in order ' ?

Is anyone edified?

Where were the non believers?

See this is the problem.

Paul said he spoke in tongues more than all of them.

He even made distinctions of "when in the assembly..."
There were private and corporate instructions.

Factor that in

 

[Absolutely]

That's what a lot of Psalm 119 is about.

My study method is straight forward. I start from the beginning and continue all the way to the end in the order the books are presented. That way, I pick a lot of things later on while I'm seeing all the patterns and design structure. I know many Christians that only focus on Paul. I've had them tell me that I can't understand the NT because I read it through the lens of the whole bible.

I have read through those portions and it is a topic today that is puzzling to me. The only understanding I have about "tongues" is the Pentecost when individuals heard God's words in their own tongue. Those that did not have the spirit heard only babbling and perceived drunkeness.

I do not perceive any "supernatural" tongues other than someone speaking a foreign language that not all in the church can understand without an interpreter to translate from one nation's language to theirs.

That's kind of a boring and unexciting perception. It's much more glitzy to think there are spiritual heavenly tongues that only certain gifted persons have power to understand.

ironically the bible refutes you

 

[Absolutely]

Yes, agree, one side or the other is in Serious Trouble! Is it the side that
says: "Yes, the sign {sight?} gifts are in effect," today, Under God's GRACE?
(2Co_5 : 7 [Imperfect?] KJB!)

Or, is it the side that believes:

God's PERFECT Word Has Come? IF "It Has Come," Then "the SIGN gifts
Have Ceased, Correct? And, we can "live CLOSE To God," Correct? i.e:

"...we walk BY faith, NOT by sight!..." (2 Corinthians 5 : 7 [Perfect!] KJB!)

However:

IF God's Pure, Inspired, Infallible, And Profitable Word is NOT
"That Which Is PERFECT, And Has Come," then pray tell, what is it?

a) It has not come yet? b) It Has Come, BUT, "it is IMPERFECT"?

c) any OTHER choices??? d) How are these Confusions:

"living close To God"?

Be Blessed!

Lets see...
No more knowledge
No more prophecy
No more tongues

Is that your position?

And paul was looking prophetically to the bible?

The book to "wonderfully end" the miraculous power of God?

Maybe some mental believers could start a church and rigorously oppose all the supernatural power of God????

Oh wait....we have hundreds of them....saying "we are dead right"!!!

Hmmmmm
Interesting

 

[CS1]

There are fakers out there. However, that does not deter from the fact that there is a genuine.

It's up to you to live in a way (close to God) where you can tell the difference.

I'm afraid a lot of you are going to be in serious trouble for lumping the fake and the genuine all together and in doing so speaking evil of a gift of the Spirit.

I am responding to your post when I use the word " you" it is speaking of the concessionist


They worship head knowledge and think salvation is achieved by how much of the Bible they know or think they know.

They claim the gifts are not for today because it insults their intellect like the well-educated Greeks and philosophers. The Cross is foolishness to them. Paul said speaking about the "Last days in 2 Tim chapter 3 and warning bout those who have crept into the church




1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. (dynamis) And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

the gifts of the Holy Spirit offend their intelligence. Why? Because they are incapable of accepting what is clearly seen in scripture and they are embarrassed by those who have misused them. It has to be this because we agree with them of those who are fake and foolish and fleecing the flock for money.


But that's not it. They attack the Gifts of the Holy Spirit because it is not rational thinking. Yet those who attack the fake on TV and those who are perverting the gifts of the Holy Spirit for money those who also on tv speaking out against it

Wearing $1000 suites and have over 6 figure salaries.

Those who are concessionist too are very rich it seems Just not as flamboyant as those they speak out against.

FYI that is called a hypocrite. They base the whole Idea that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today not because of the foolishness of those who do abuse them no,

They will show you videos to reinforce their idea that once the Bible was canonized the gifts just stopped. Then show you the fake use of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and YELL SEE it has stopped.

But when asked please prove that 1cor chapter 13: 8-9 means the gifts have stopped


8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.


WE ask them how do you translate or interpret this to mean that the "Perfect" is the canonization of the Bible?
They can't. They will give you a history lesson and human reasoning but they can't show you from the word of God this to mean the Gifts of the Holy Spirit has stopped and not for today.



They get very mad then attack you and start to name call kind of like a liberal snowflake wearing a pink hat.

Oh wait look at this fake video of Benny Hinn, or Kenneth Copland, or this guy to that guy or women, then they jump into 1cor 14 about women being silent. All those who say this wearing $1000 suites


Excuse me please show me the proof from the Word of God?

I did! I gave you 1cor 13:8-9 you are just to wolven into your pentacostel doctrine. look at this video.

But.... 1cor 13:8-9 doesn't say the gift has ceased, it says they will cease and I am asking you how is the "perfect" to mean the bible?


IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD PERFECT!!!!!

Yes, it is amen, but so are the Holy Spirits' gifts. Has the Holy Spirit ever gave anything to the church that was not perfect?

Listen !!!!! the KJV Bible is that which was perfect to Come OK !!!!!


Ok, But Jesus said in the KJV Bible in Mark 16:15-18


5 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name, they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”


THAT WAS ADDED AN NOT PART OF THE ORIGINAL TRANSLATION !!!

I see,


Thank you, and I will continue to pray with my understand and pray in the Spirit, I will lay hands on the sick and see those saved and addictions are broken by the Power of the Holy Spirit as I preach the Gospel message of the Lord Jesus Christ, having the word of God confirmed with signs & wonders.

By those set free, saved, delivered, and yes healed. IF you are not seeing that don't get mad at me because I am, You talk to your Boss and ask HIM why you are not.

you keep your power/point presentation there is no power in it so what's the point?

You think your level of knowledge, has saved you and keeps you saved. You provide no hope to the addicted or the sick because you are afraid and have doubt. You are fearful to trust God because your eyes are on those who abuse the gifts instead of keeping your eyes on Jesus. And you are more concerned about what the world thinks about you.

You think that you can save someone from error because of your human reasoning. You have an issue with those on tv then address those people not the gift of the Holy Spirit.

seeking the occult and pagan practices and trying to toe tag the Gifts of the Holy Spirit to it. Shame on you. You have an issue with

Kenneth Copland, and those on TV Please I'm sure you have the ability to get their address and phone number and speak to them about their error You have my blessing to do so.

 

[Major]

This topic has been thrashed put many times in this forum.

You gotta define what the gift of tongues is first.

The reason people would say it is emotionalism now and not the real deal is because the meaning has been given of 'private prayer language' or 'ecstatic utterances'

Neither of these things have much to do with earthly languages that the people spoke in Acts at Pentecost.

The people who heard the tongues were hearing their own language, from people that did not know the languages themselves. God was spreading His gospel, reaching other nations thru their languages.

Is this what is going on today?

From my own experience it is more emotionalism and ecstatic utterances rather than anything in the bible.

The tongues were even meant for the unbeliever as a sign.. where do you see it being used in that sense?


I would be more open to to tongues being used today if people were abiding by the boundaries around what it is and its use, as seen in Acts and written on by Paul.

This is not what is happening though as far as I have observed.
Last time I was at a service that people were supposedly speaking in tongues, the ENTIRE congregation tried speaking in tongues.

Is that 'decent and in order ' ?

Is anyone edified?

Where were the non believers?

See this is the problem.

Yes I do and it is the reason for the post!

 

[1ofthem]

Yes, agree, one side or the other is in Serious Trouble! Is it the side that
says: "Yes, the sign {sight?} gifts are in effect," today, Under God's GRACE?
(2Co_5 : 7 [Imperfect?] KJB!)

Or, is it the side that believes:

God's PERFECT Word Has Come? IF "It Has Come," Then "the SIGN gifts
Have Ceased, Correct? And, we can "live CLOSE To God," Correct? i.e:

"...we walk BY faith, NOT by sight!..." (2 Corinthians 5 : 7 [Perfect!] KJB!)

However:

IF God's Pure, Inspired, Infallible, And Profitable Word is NOT
"That Which Is PERFECT, And Has Come," then pray tell, what is it?

a) It has not come yet? b) It Has Come, BUT, "it is IMPERFECT"?

c) any OTHER choices??? d) How are these Confusions:

Be Blessed!

That which is perfect has not come yet. It is clear that Paul is not talking about the completion of the Bible in that passage.

We still need knowledge...don't we? It has not vanished away has it?

When we make it to the other side or when New Jerusalem comes down from God out of heaven then that is when that which is perfect will come.

When that happens then we won't need tongues, knowledge, or prophecy because we will be living in "that which is perfect."

Anyone that wants to do away with Spiritual gifts is weakening the Church.

 

[Major]

The definition has changed. Now people speak about a "prayer language". In the New Testament (KJV) "tongues" simply means human languages spoken supernaturally (no training, coaching, practicing involved).

Isn't that actually "double speak" so as to make what a man does more acceptable to the masses????

Read the book "1984" by George Orwell, where that term 1st showed up I think!

 

[Major]

That which is perfect has not come yet. It is clear that Paul is not talking about the completion of the Bible in that passage.

We still need knowledge...don't we? It has not vanished away has it?

When we make it to the other side or when New Jerusalem comes down from God out of heaven then that is when that which is perfect will come.

When that happens then we won't need tongues, knowledge, or prophecy because we will be living in "that which is perfect."

Anyone that wants to do away with Spiritual gifts is weakening the Church.

If the PERFECT has yet to come then what do YOU say that it is????

 

[Major]

How could you not understand what I said of the Holy Spirit?

I did.

 

[Major]

it's not what God has said it is what you have said about the Word of God that is wrong.

You of course are welcome to your own opinion. If I were you and wanted to do what you want to do, then I would probable say the very same thing about YOU.

However, would you like to be more specific so that we could all know what your opinion is about. The way you said it, it could actually mean that the Sun revolves around the Earth just as the RCC taught for a thousand years.