50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

Truth7t7 · May 25, 2021

Simple, Clear, Easy To Understand

The Church Will Be Present On Earth During The Tribulation, And Be Eyewitnesses To The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ, Before Your Eyes In Four Verses

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Ahwatukee · May 25, 2021

Gardenias said:

The fear of God is a good spiritual state, after all, is it not written "The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom." And Jesus told His disciples the following:

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna)." - Matt.10:28

Regarding "understanding the time," we are close to the Lord's promise of descending to gather His church, as promised in John 14:1-3.

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." - John 14:1-3

The detailed account of the event above is found in I Thessalonians 4:16-18:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

After the gathering of the church takes place, God's wrath will begin to be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses will bring upon the earth. Just to give you an idea of how terrible that time period will be, with just the fourth seal and sixth trumpet (a fourth and a third, respectively), over half the earth's population will have been killed. And that is just within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

For those who are continuing in faith, who are watching for and anticipating the Lord's appearing, they are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, because Christ already suffered it on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and will therefore be caught up to meet the Lord in the air prior to said wrath.

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. - I Thessalonians. 1:10

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! - Rom.5:9

randyk · May 25, 2021

Absolutely said:

This is God's truth. I'll give it in the form of a testimony, unembellished. I was raised a Lutheran, and the 1st book I read on Revelation belonged to my Grandfather, a commentary on Revelation by a man named Lenske--that's all I remember. A lot of symbolic interpretations, and I ate it up. Didn't know a thing about a Pretrib Rapture--I believe Lutherans were all Postrib. I didn't even know there was an argument between Postrib and Pretrib, nothing about Midtrib or PreWrath.

When I repented of my teen rebellion and returned to the Lord, I discovered there was a lot I missed as a Lutheran, and converted to a Pentecostal denomination. I, of course, adopted Pretrib, because that's what all the preachers were telling me, still in my teens. Hal Lindsey's book came out, "The Late Great Planet Earth," and his contemporary way of explaining Revelation was exciting, to say the least!

He is Pretrib, and I probably just went along with that. But then my brother, also having converted from Lutheranism to something else, was following a course in Bible memorization, led by Bill Gothard. My brother spent an hour telling me I need to memorize Scriptures.

I obeyed. I began to memorize Scriptures, and found it came pretty easy to me. Never realized it could even be done! I only memorized a few large sections of the NT, but one book I chose to memorize was 2 Thess. Imagine my shock when I memorized 2 Thes 2, where Paul said that we shouldn't be deceived, but should recognize that no current movement qualifies as the "2nd Coming," that Christ *cannot* come until the time when he comes to destroy the Antichrist!

That is just the truth of the matter. I informed my brother that I feel I must adopt a non-Pretrib position, due to what I had memorized. If I am to be honest, I have to turn against all of the current popular views of Pretrib!

I moved to S. CA, where I read a commentary by Chuck Smith on the book of Revelation, and began to doubt my Postrib position. I went back and forth in my mind until I became convinced I need to study anew. I went to the local bookstore of the church I was going to, Melodyland Christian Center, also a Pretrib church. I went inside and a person just walked up to me--a customer--and offered to help. I said I was studying the debate Postrib vs. Pretrib, and he led me to 2 books on Postrib, which I now know are THE classic works on Postrib in our time--The Blessed Hope, by George E. Ladd, and The Church and the Tribulation, by Robert Gundry.

After reading these books, I found I didn't agree with all of their stated beliefs, but became firmly convinced that Postrib is correct. I felt ashamed that I doubted what I had already known. I just didn't think it was possible that people smarter than me, like Hal Linsey and Chuck Smith, could be wrong and me right! My goodness, Hal Lindsey taught at my church on Sunday mornings.

But another also taught at my church on Sunday mornings, and he was the famous Bible Answerman, Walter Martin. And he was a convinced Postribber, albeit not argumentatively so. He consider the matter a "peripheral issue." And he was also a good friend of Chuck Smith! They simply "agreed to disagree."

So, the initial conviction of Postrib came from 2 Thes 2. But since that time I've considered virtually every argument under the sun for Pretrib, and they all fall short, due to there not being any explicit theology to defend it. It's all "proven" by allegory, and not by explicit theology. It's argued that it is a "mystery" to be "revealed" to those who are "open." That is way to esoteric for me. I don't believe Jesus communicates that way, unless it is to befuddle those with hard hearts. And I'm not one of those.

Ahwatukee · May 25, 2021

randyk said:

Hello Randyk,

It is good to see that you are truly interested in finding out the truth regarding when the church will be gathered in relation to God's wrath and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

I think that you will agree, that before Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom, that God's wrath must come first in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses will bring.

Regarding this and of first importance, is understanding the underlying principal which is that Christ suffered God's wrath on behalf of ever believer, satisfying it completely. When we believed, we were credited with Christ's righteousness and reconciled to God. Therefore, the wrath of God no longer rests upon those in Christ.

The error that has been made, is those not recognizing that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as being two separate events, with different purposes. In short, many have interpreted the gathering of the church as taking place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

The problem with this is that, Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer and therefore we cannot remain on the earth during the time of God's wrath, which is initiated by the opening of the first seal. Consider the following:

==================================================================================================
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief
=================================================================================================

First Paul gives a detailed account of the event of the resurrection of those who have died in Christ and the changing and gathering of those who are still alive in Christ. Then regarding the times and seasons of when the resurrection and gathering of the living is to take place he says will come like a thief in the night, i.e. it is an imminent event.

The event of the resurrection and the gathering of the church is closely linked to 'the Day of the Lord," which is referring to the time of God's wrath.

Notice that for those (unbelievers) who will be saying "peace and security" destruction will come upon them suddenly and they will not escape. Then immediately following that in the next verse Paul says, "But you, brothers," which would immediately infer the opposite of not escaping, i.e. you brothers will escape! How will they escape? By the means that Paul just spoke of where at the resurrection the living in Christ will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. This is also supported by the fact that Paul says that believers are not in darkness so that this day (day of the Lord) should take us by surprise. The darkness and the night represents the time of God's wrath, which follows the resurrection and the catching up of the living in Christ.

The error of the Lord gathering His church post tribulation is due to people not understanding and incorrectly interpreting 2 Thess.2.

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.

Paul starts off with "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him." Then in verse 2 he uses the term "the Day of the Lord," which many people just read over. Let me reiterate, that the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him is in reference to the gathering of the church. Where "The Day of the Lord" is the time of God's wrath. As previously stated these two events are closely linked together, for after the church is gathered, it ushers in the Day of the Lord. Soon after the church is gathered, that man of lawlessness, the antichrist, will establish his seven year covenant with Israel in fulfillment of the seventy seven year periods decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, as revealed in Daniel 9:24-27. That last seven years is what will commence once the church is removed.

If we could read the letter that the Thessalonians wrote to Paul, this whole controversy would be cleared up. There were some in Thessalonica who were teaching that 'The Day of the Lord' had already come, i.e. the time of God's wrath. Paul had taught the Thessalonians that first the Lord would come and gather His church and then the Day of the Lord would follow. So the Thessalonians were basically writing Paul and saying "Hey Paul, we have some who are claiming that the day of the Lord has already come, so why haven't we been caught up to meet the Lord in the air as you taught up?" Then Paul assures them that the day of the Lord (time of God's wrath) will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed. The following verses also support this:

=========================================================================================================
Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.
=========================================================================================================

In the scripture above, the revealing of the man of lawlessness/antichrist, is currently being restrained until it is time for him to be revealed. Once the One who is restraining him is taken out of the way, then that man of lawlessness will be revealed. Now, the only One who could be restraining the antichrist and full force of sin, would be God the Holy Spirit. And when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, so also must the church be removed, because the Spirit dwells within each believer. This would put the church being gathered first, then the man of lawlessness being revealed.

The most important reason as to why the church cannot be gathered post-trib which is after God's wrath, is that Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer. Therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon us, which means we cannot and will not enter into that time of wrath.

"But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,
and by His stripes we are healed."

Since the Lord's punishment that we deserved was placed upon Him, God's punishment/wrath no longer rests upon the believer.

VCO · May 26, 2021

Runningman said:

The number of days are clearly number throughout the 7 year Peace TREATY with ISRAEL, including Mid-Trib, and the END of Tribulation. Therefore, you must believe that Mat. 25:13 and Mat 24:36 are a LIE. I believe it WHOLE HEARTEDLY, and only PRE-TRIB dates, would leave it ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

Matthew 25:13 (NCV)
13 “So always be ready, because you don’t know the day or the hour the Son of Man will come.

Matthew 24:36 (ESV)
36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

Zechariah 14:3-9 (ESV)
3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
{We are the ones coming with the LORD after the Wedding of the lamb and wedding feast. WE will know the DAY before we LEAVE HEAVEN. You did not think of that, did you? AND clearly verse 36 above states NO ONE KNOWS. ONLY PRE-TRIB will never KNOW. SO Post-Trib is OUT of the question, PERIOD.}
6 On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost.
7 And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.
8 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea. It shall continue in summer as in winter.
9 And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one.

{Let's see if Mid-Trib suffers the SAME FATE as Post-TRIB did.}

Daniel 9:27 (NJB)
27 He will strike a firm alliance with many people for the space of a week {of years} ; and for the space of one half-week he will put a stop to sacrifice and oblation, and on the wing of the Temple will be the appalling abomination until the end, until the doom assigned to the devastator.'

{During that time, almost EVERY PERSON with a CELL PHONE or LAPTOP, will here about the Firm Alliance between the revived Roman Empire and ISRAEL for that week of years. THERFORE most of the WORLD's Population will KNOW what day is MID-TRIB. THEREFORE MID-TRIB is OUT of the question too, PERIOD.}

randyk · May 26, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

I have no doubt you're sincere in your beliefs, but you truly muddy up the picture in order to defend John Darby's position, dating from around the 1830s. Before that time, Pretrib, and your arguments, did not exist. That should tell you something?

So you're trying to defend a modern eschatology that had no place in the early Church. It is often argued that the "imminent coming" of the Lord was taught from earliest times, which demands belief in a Pretrib Rapture. But it was never understood that way. Some surely thought the Lord's coming was "soon," but who thought it could happen "at any time," and would precede the revelation of
Antichrist? Nobody that I know of!

No, Christ was thought to come "imminently* only because Christ's atoning death had already taken place, making salvation "soon." By "soon" it was thought that the Kingdom was inevitable and the end-game for human history. As such, it was "near."

So what about your main argument that Christ took God's wrath from believers so that believers should never against suffer wrath, as poured out at the end of the age? Well, quite simply, this never meant that Christians would never suffer from antichrists in history, but rather, that *eternal wrath* would never take place upon those trusting in Christ. All the persecution in the world would not mean that God would abandon His people to Hell forever. They would *never* suffer His wrath in the sense of Eternal Punishment.

Obviously, this means that Christians suffering in the turmoil of Antichristian persecution at the end of the age is not the equivalent of "suffering God's wrath." Clearly, whether Pretrib or Postrib, we all agree that Christians suffer Antichristian persecution at the end of the age.

So that only leaves what you're concerned about, the wrath of God poured out in the trumpet and bowl judgments. But judgments from God were poured out against Israel in OT times, and the saints went through the same turmoil without God viewing them as suffering wrath specifically against them.

Jeremiah certainly went through the devastation suffered by Israel when God sent His wrath against Israel through the Babylonian invasion. And Daniel suffered in Captivity for the same act of divine wrath that punished the disobedient. In other words, the righteous suffer along with the wicked, though they are not the objects of God's wrath.

So it will be at the end of time, when God pours out His anger on the world, just as He is already doing. We've suffered AIDS, the Coronavirus, economic turmoil, ethnic divisions, and all kinds of criminal violence.

But going through this is not evidence of God's wrath against His people. No, this is evidence that God always leaves a witness for those willing to repent. Just as Jesus himself suffered in the midst of a wicked generation, so Christians suffer in their own wicked generation, in order to preserve a witness to the love and forgiveness of God. Nothing in the book of Revelation does less than praise believers in the last days who endure against Antichrist's pressures and persecutions.

Paul is warning the Thessalonian Christians that the day of Christ's revelation has not yet taken place, warning about false messiahs, which Jesus predicted would take place. Some Christians likely heard a movement that claimed to be the beginning of Christ's Kingdom on earth. But this was a false Messiah, and Paul warned against it.

Determining who the "Restrainer" is doesn't explain away Paul's statement that Antichrist must be "revealed 1st." The Early Church saw the "Restrainer" as the Roman Government, which was the 4th Beast of Dan 7. It would remain solid until it divided into 10 kings.

That is, the Roman Empire would eventually dissolve into 10 states of Europe, eventually reconsolidating under the Antichrist. Paul said that Antichrist would not come until he was not longer held back. And Christ would not come until Antichrist himself came 1st.

Ahwatukee · May 26, 2021

randyk said:

I don't muddy anything. I'm only concerned with the truth and accuracy of God's word. The Darby card is just a knee-jerk reaction and an assumption on your part. Truth is, I've never read anything by Darby, therefore I am not presenting any of his teachings. All of my information comes from scripture and not by the teachings of men.

The teachings are from scripture. And as I told you, Christ already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Do you have a problem with this obvious truth? Anyone who does not understand this basic principle, does not understand fully what Christ accomplished for those who believe. You and others would have believers in Christ suffering the same wrath of God right along with the wicked. If you remember the story of Abraham, Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah, you would know that God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.

Anyone who believes in a mid or post tribulation gathering, also has no understanding of the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. This earth will be no place to live during that time, even if anyone was protected. Not only that, but you will not find the church alluded to anywhere after the end of chapter 3 and because Chapter 4:1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is caught up. The next time the church is mentioned is as the bride in Rev.19:6-8. And the actual word church is not used again until Rev.22:16. The church is removed prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

The gathering of the church through the word of God takes place prior to God's wrath, period. Those who believe in a post tribulation gathering are not looking for the appearing of the Lord, but for the wrath of God to take place first.

In addition, Revelation 19:6-8 has the bride/church already in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in 19:14, we have an army following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen that bride will have just received at the wedding, which would make that army the bride/church. Then there is the following:

"They (the beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Those 'called, chosen and faithful followers' descending with Christ, will be those who were previously resurrected and the living in Christ who were changed and caught up.

In order to follow Christ out of heaven, you would have to already be in heaven.

Another truth is that Rev.22:18 says that If anyone adds anything to the words of the prophesies in the book of Revelation, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll, which would be referring to the plagues of wrath resulting from the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Yet, you have the church going through those plagues of wrath for no reason.

Gardenias · May 26, 2021

I'm gonna have to forever leave this thread!
It's too confusing to me!
As I have said once b4 ,what is most important,that we ready our souls and live in the Spirit to stand whatever God's plan is!

May God cover us all under his mighty wing!
Love Gardenias!

cv5 · May 26, 2021

Runningman said:

None of those verses in post #2,496 say there is a pre-trib rapture. I saw you claim there is a pre-trib rapture, but you aren't the authority on this topic; God is the authority on this topic. The Bible is the word of God therefore I can be persuaded by what the Bible says.

Also, you might want to take another look at what Daniel actually prophecies about concerning the end times. Here's a snippet:

Daniel 12:7-13
7And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. 8And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

What do you think it means that "many shall be purified, made white, and tried" and "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days"

In your false pre-trib rapture scenario there will be no purification by trial or waiting until the end of the great tribulation. Even Daniel debunks the pre-trib rapture.

That entire passage is spoken only to Daniels people........Israel. I take it you do not understand this?

Runningman · May 26, 2021

VCO said:

You're going to have to study harder and dig through the scripture more if you think you can muddy the waters with those verses.

Have you had studied who Christ brings with Him, you wouldn't have made the false claim that Christ brings the raptured church with Him at His return. 100% false.

Jesus brings the sleeping, deceased saints, with Him to be resurrected:
1 Thessalonians 4:14-16
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Living saints, on the surface of the Earth, are raptured after the return of Christ:
1 Thessalonians 4:17
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jesus also brings angels with Him at His return:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Your whole idea that Jesus returns with the raptured church is poor dividing of scripture. Furthermore, you did not address how there is no pre-trib return of Christ mentioned absolutely anywhere in the whole body of scripture, but there is a post-trib return:

Jesus returns after the tribulation with His angels to gather (rapture) His elect:
Matthew 24:29-31
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

cv5 · May 26, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

The fear of God is a good spiritual state, after all, is it not written "The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom." And Jesus told His disciples the following:

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna)." - Matt.10:28

Regarding "understanding the time," we are close to the Lord's promise of descending to gather His church, as promised in John 14:1-3.

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." - John 14:1-3

The detailed account of the event above is found in I Thessalonians 4:16-18:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

After the gathering of the church takes place, God's wrath will begin to be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses will bring upon the earth. Just to give you an idea of how terrible that time period will be, with just the fourth seal and sixth trumpet (a fourth and a third, respectively), over half the earth's population will have been killed. And that is just within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

For those who are continuing in faith, who are watching for and anticipating the Lord's appearing, they are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, because Christ already suffered it on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and will therefore be caught up to meet the Lord in the air prior to said wrath.

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. - I Thessalonians. 1:10

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! - Rom.5:9

Eph 1:10
that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

Runningman · May 26, 2021

cv5 said:

Big clue for you in these verses of Daniel 12 is the mention of the abomination of desolation. That's associated with the anti-Christ of the great tribulation. It's a prophecy of a future event.

VCO · May 26, 2021

Gardenias said:

I have a suggestion for you. Get the BOOK that the title of this thread, talks about.

TheDivineWatermark · May 26, 2021

Runningman said:

INDEED it *is* "future"... (and corresponds with timing-issues in Revelation, as you well-know)

At least 3 big clues in the first 3 verses of Daniel 12 show us that its CONTEXT is "Israel":

--"Michael... that standeth for the children of THY [Daniel's] people"

--"a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a NATION [the first mention of this exact form of this word is found also in Gen35:11... the one in the singular form, speaking of "Israel"] to that same time..."

--"and at that time THY [Daniel's] people will be delivered"

--"that sleep in the dust of the earth SHALL AWAKE" (corresponding with other passages speaking of Israel, "coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where scattered," in passages LIKENING this UNTO 'a resurrection' [NOT a physical/bodily resurrection from the dead, like v.13 speaks of, though]--Ezek37:12-14,20-23; Isa26:15-21; Hos5:14-6:3; Rom11:15[25]; etc... <--ALL re: Israel's "future" and ALL likening this unto 'a resurrection')

--v.3 note what they GO ON TO DO ('and they that TURN MANY TO RIGHTEOUSNESS...')

--[besides the fact that most see at least *some* parts of chpt 11 (where chpt 12 CONTINUES ON by saying "And AT THAT TIME") speaks of the "far-future," whereas the earlier parts of that chpt speak of Antiochus Epiphanes, in the past (near[er]-future, to them at the time written)... with the division of the chpt usually being acknowledged to be around vv.35 (past history to us) then v.36 (far-future, to them / future to us)]

Just my two cents...

VCO · May 26, 2021

Runningman said:

You're going to have to study harder and dig through the scripture more if you think you can muddy the waters with those verses.

Have you had studied who Christ brings with Him, you wouldn't have made the false claim that Christ brings the raptured church with Him at His return. 100% false.

Jesus brings the sleeping, deceased saints, with Him to be resurrected:
1 Thessalonians 4:14-16
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Living saints, on the surface of the Earth, are raptured after the return of Christ:
1 Thessalonians 4:17
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jesus also brings angels with Him at His return:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Your whole idea that Jesus returns with the raptured church is poor dividing of scripture. Furthermore, you did not address how there is no pre-trib return of Christ mentioned absolutely anywhere in the whole body of scripture, but there is a post-trib return:

Jesus returns after the tribulation with His angels to gather (rapture) His elect:
Matthew 24:29-31
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

NO! I am 100% Sure of the interpretation, because the HOLY SPIRIT has CONVINCED me in my HEART.

TheDivineWatermark · May 26, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

One example from the above listing:

Isaiah 26 [in the section Isaiah 24-27 commonly known as "the little apocalypse"] excerpt -

1 In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.

[...]

11 LORD, when thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: but they shall see, and be ashamed for their envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them.

12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.

13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name. ['have had dominion over us'... which is what the phrase 'the TIMES of the Gentiles' speaks to (started in 606/605bc and Neb's 'dream/statue/image'... with Neb as 'head of gold')--distinct from the phrase 'the FULNESS of the Gentiles BE COME IN [G1525]']

14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

15 Thou hast increased the nation, O LORD, thou hast increased the nation: thou art glorified: thou hadst removed it far unto all the ends of the earth.

16 LORD, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer when thy chastening was upon them.

17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.

18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [speaking of Israel having been "scattered" and "sow[n]... unto the earth"... i.e. into all the nations / the graveyard of nations, where scattered... see again the listing of parallel passages, LIKENING this UNTO 'a resurrection' (re: Israel)]

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Runningman · May 26, 2021

VCO said:

No to what? Are you rejecting the scriptures I just showed you? I do not know what you are actually disagreeing with because what I just showed you is 100% Biblical. No amount of screaming and shouting will ever undo the divinely inspired word of God, but it does hurt you credibility and objectiveness.

The Holy Spirit will not contradict Himself by revealing information that is not already in the Bible. If the Holy Spirit reveals anything to you then the Bible should back that up from beginning to end.

What you've showed me so far has been rebuttaled with scripture. Aside from shouting, what is your response to the truth I just showed you?

randyk · May 26, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

That's inherently false, since the Bible and your own biblical instruction came from men. You did *not* just get your instruction from the Bible, but from *men* as well!

This teaching did come from Darby, and you just show your ignorance of that fact by declaring the opposite. I've studied this since the 70s. I know what I'm talking about. Do a little internet investigation, and you'll discover I'm right. This teaching can be traced to the 1830s and to John N. Darby. His view was controversial at the time, and Darby became a pretty hostile guy, even though he was a reasonably good and brilliant Christian. He apparently didn't like being challenged on his novel Pretrib Rapture theory. Before Darby, there was *no such thing!*

If you don't know this, how can you even argue that you got it from the "Bible alone?" It's simply not true! Nobody before Darby held to Darby's arguments. You *had* to get it indirectly from Darby, through others who were influenced by him.

For example, have you read anything coming from Dallas Theological Seminary? Are you familiar with names like Scofield, with the Prophetic Conferences of the early 1900s, or with modern evangelists who have been influenced by them--household names like Walvoord, Hal Lindsey, Gordon Lindsay, Chuck Smith, Oral Roberts, etc. etc.?

The Left Behind series made it popular in books, and a number of Rapture movies made it popular on television. But it all began with Darby, who wanted, properly, to reinvent the wheel of biblical prophecy in modern times. Premillennialism had risen again, and Darby's wish was to promote a literal rendering of biblical prophecy. I would agree with that much, which explains how his Pretrib Rapture ideas became so popular. It had become joined to Premillennial belief.

Ahwatukee said:

I already answered this. Christians suffer under the persecution of Antichrist--this is not God's wrath. Christians suffer on the same earth in which God's wrath is poured out on rebels. This is not our experiencing Divine Wrath! Suffering the ill consequences of pagans being judged does *not* mean God is judging us. We may suffer the ill effects of such judgments, but we are protected from *eternal judgment.*

So if you mean to say Christians cannot live during the time of Antichrist, the book of Revelation denies that. So much for your "biblical" theories! On the contrary, the book of Revelation literally *praises* those who resist the mark of the Beast--it does not treat them as spiritually-weak Christians who were "left behind!*

For 1800 years Christians believed that they would suffer various persecutions in the present world. They never taught we should escape, since Jesus said he did not come to take us out of the world, but rather, to keep us spiritually safe in the world.

Ahwatukee said:

False again. I fully understand Christ's redemption of his people from their sins. You are *adding* to his redemption a false promise of exemption from suffering. That is completely unbiblical. We follow Christ, who also suffered what appeared to be "God's Wrath" for us. But God wasn't actually *judging* Jesus, but only allowing him to bear the cross for our forgiveness. We also must take up our own cross to follow him. Now *that* is biblical! And *that* should be understood properly!

Ahwatukee said:

Most of the trumpets and seals are speaking of bringing the world to Armageddon. They are not speaking of the 3.5 years of Antichristian persecution of the saints. The earthquakes, plagues, and wars that take place at the end of this age are the same as have happened all through history at various times when nations warranted them. You would compare a big earthquake with a little earthquake? You compare a greater number of deaths with a lesser number of deaths? Death is death. However many experience it, we do experience it and are not exempt from it.

Ahwatukee said:

That is a fallacious argument from allegory, which can never hold water. The book was written to the *Church,* and various names are given for the same, whether saints or other. John was caught up to see a visioni--it is never said to be an allegory of a Pretrib Rapture! That is *your assertion*--not a biblical assertion.

Ahwatukee said:

False. I'm looking for Christ's coming to destroy Antichrist and to thus deliver the Church from this wicked world. Your assertions mean nothing if they are not substantiated by *explicit* theological statements from the Bible. But you assert things based on *allegorical arguments,* which are on the face illegitimate. Assertions without proof are inadmissible, and you should know that. Adding to the book of Revelation is unacceptable.

Ahwatukee said:

Visions of Christians in heaven in the book of Revelation do not reflect a chronological time order of events. They are prolepses, ensuring that Christians have a future in heaven with God, even as the story of terrible antiChristian persecution is told. To try to place these visions in chronological sequence is an exercise in futility. Base your beliefs on explicit biblical statements--and not on your own personal assertions and interpretations.

TheDivineWatermark · May 26, 2021

Runningman said:

You're getting mixed up on this passage again.

The understood question had to do with "how will our loved ones [believers] who have DIED also participate [with us] in the 'BRING UNIONed[G4862]-WITH Him' thing?"... which "UNIONed-WITH" thing ONLY occurs once we are "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER" ['to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR'] and "SO [/IN THIS WAY] shall we ever be UNIONed[G4862]-WITH the Lord".

Before that can happen, "the DEAD IN Christ shall rise [be resurrected to stand again on the earth] *first*"... and then after that, we are "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER [AT THE SAME TIME]"... *THIS* is how the "UNIONed[G4862]-WITH" thing will take place... and then (after some time) His "MANIFESTATION" per 2Th2:8b takes place [DISTINCT FROM v.1!!], when ALSO occurs Col3:4 ('WHEN Christ... shall APPEAR, then shall YE ALSO APPEAR UNIONed-WITH[G4862] Him IN GLORY" as well as the "MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD" to all of creation that is now 'groaning' Rom8:19)

IOW, 1Th4:14 is not speaking of Jesus bringing their "spirits" to be reunited with their [now 'resurrected and glorified'] bodies... but is speaking of the "UNIONed-WITH" thing (at the "BRING [already-]UNIONed-WITH-HIM" point in time)... "how is that gonna happen re: our dead loved ones [believers]??" Here's how, Paul is saying... "the DEAD IN Christ shall rise [be resurrected] *first*... THEN we..."

TheDivineWatermark · May 26, 2021

^
Same thing I had covered in Post #38 of a different thread:

Post #38 - https://christianchat.com/threads/g...e-the-2nd-coming-prophecy.197951/post-4558551

See also Posts #42 and #47 of that thread

50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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