UNFORGIVING SPIRIT

[1ofthem]

This is all Good advice and every word is true.
All tho its not as easy as you make it sound and especially not easy for those who dont know all the wisdom of the bible. People who read the bible think they do but then why Did Jesus tell a load of bible following people to practice what they preach..

It is really not as hard as what others want to make it out to be. Jesus died on the cross and arose from the dead and set us free. Whom the Son sets free is free indeed.

We need to learn to identify and see ourselves in Jesus Christ. That is how God see's us. We are dead and our life is hid with Him. The enemy can have no power over us. Jesus broke the bondage.

Yes, of course we have to practice what we preach.

The enemy is not only walking around like roaring lion looking to devour. the enemy is invisible to the naked eye most of the time, and also pretends to be an angel of light, quite easily decieving people by playing God also inside a persons mind. and where not just talking about one bad spirit that is bad here but a whole army of them this way.

We are not and should not be ignorant to the enemies devices. He is not only a roaring lion, but he is also likened to a serpent. A serpent is sneaky...lying around in the grass waiting to strike anyone who is not aware of its presence.

However, as long as we are in Jesus Christ and walk in him....he gives us the power to tread over serpents...just like he said..

Luke 10:19

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.


There is no true power, but God and he has given all power in Heaven and in earth to Jesus. Now if Jesus be in us and we walk in Him, then there is nothing that can overtake us.

God gives us discernment and through the scripture we know how to identify the enemy. Anything that goes against the scripture or Word of God... is not of God.

Jesus told us to take every thought captive, and with good reason. but can i honestly say that i do that all the time or can you.
The main reason i feal Jesus told us to take every thought captive is Jesus told us the battle we all must win is against spiritual wicked forces and not against each other.

Of course it is a spiritual battle. We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world and against spiritual wickedness in high places.

However, we know by the scripture that Jesus is seated in Heavenly places far above all principalities, power, and might and dominion and every named that is named and all things have been put under his feet. Ephesians 1:20-21. Also in Ephesians 2:5-6, we learn that we are raised up together, and made to sit together in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

So as long as we put on the whole armor of God and bring every thought captive to Jesus...we should have faith that we have already won the battle.

This again is not as difficult as it sounds. Yes, there may be times where we might fail; however, we are to renew our minds daily. We do this by bringing our thoughts captive to Jesus and walking with him in the Spirit. We cannot overcome on our own or in our own thoughts or mind....but Jesus has already overcome and scripture tells us that we have the mind of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.


(I will try to continue this later in another post if time permits.... because this is getting rather long)

 

[1ofthem]

But here i am again having to prove that my walk is ok when i talk about being attacked by spiritual wicked forces, but thats ok i dont mind.
I here christians say this shouldnt happen if your walking in the spirit but how wrong they are. do you ever say the first thought that comes in your head,
I see no talking in this forum about this either about the most important teachings of Jesus, on how to over come demons.
Far to many christians think you must not be a proper christian or not have Jesus if your being possesed by a demon.
Is it no wonder where all at war with each other when the main teachings of Jesus on how we should help each other to over come demons some how becomes the christians fault.
Jesus had to warn His deciples over and over again as its a daily battle. And even Jesus was tempted by a demon. He overcame because he was a master.
Has ever christian reached master level ??
and it is hard to peice all the infomation togeather because it is seperated all over the bible and i do feal i have good cause to be upset over that.. the bible even apolagizes to us for that, when we read in mark a scripture says all tho Jesus never explained in full when he spoke to crowds in parables he did how ever explain in full to his deciples.

I really am not saying that it is your's or anyone else's fault when they face attack by spiritual forces. I do we all do....I'm just trying to highlight what the scripture says and how to deal with these attacks.

Jesus overcame temptations through the Word of God. He is our example so if we want to overcome temptation then we must do as he did and take the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God.

None of us well no one that I know have reached perfection and yes, it is much harder for babes in Christ to understand this and be able use the Word of God to overcome.

All that I am saying is that scripture makes it clear how to deal with it. It is up to us to seek it out and ask God for help with it in faith and rely upon the Holy Spirit to teach us.

And yes, it is also good to talk about, testify, and try to teach others how to deal with these issues using the scripture and Word of God.

I completely agree that It would be helpful if there were more discussion on these issues.

Why well its because the enemy is ruling this world and because the pieces are broken and scattered for many a poor soul. Our battle is against the rulers of this world and we as christians should take a stand.

Well i can tell it can take 15 to 30 years years to fully learn the bible.

Thats a long time for some one being opressed by a demon as you also need to learn Psychology to totaly overcome demons..

And then well there social media that never talk about the most important teaching of Jesus christ. The whole world is blind.

And we need the return Of Jesus Christ soon.

I completely agree with you that spiritual warfare should be discussed more openly among Christians.

 

[de-emerald]

I like your

I really am not saying that it is your's or anyone else's fault when they face attack by spiritual forces. I do we all do....I'm just trying to highlight what the scripture says and how to deal with these attacks.

Jesus overcame temptations through the Word of God. He is our example so if we want to overcome temptation then we must do as he did and take the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God.

None of us well no one that I know have reached perfection and yes, it is much harder for babes in Christ to understand this and be able use the Word of God to overcome.

All that I am saying is that scripture makes it clear how to deal with it. It is up to us to seek it out and ask God for help with it in faith and rely upon the Holy Spirit to teach us.

And yes, it is also good to talk about, testify, and try to teach others how to deal with these issues using the scripture and Word of God.

I completely agree that It would be helpful if there were more discussion on these issues.

I completely agree with you that spiritual warfare should be discussed more openly among Christians.

You see i knew you where a nice person, I like your spirit and your posts where full of fighting spirit in defeating the enemy and gave me hope to which i thankyou.
The world definately needs more christians with this fighting spirit to open up but i feal a lot of people are scared to open up and scared to talk about being attacked denomicaly attacked for fear of being seen as mentally ill or people dont want to talk about it for fear of fearmongering and others dont know there thoughts are being decieved.

The evidence is over whelming around the world on just how much denomic influcence there really is.
I think addiction is the biggest problem like smoking ciggerettes is one of the biggest
issues or anything that defiles our mind and body. why well the body is a temple for the light that controls our very nature. When we inhale smoke you have less oxergen in your blood which effect the very nature of your body such as peace and relaxation.
Then theres the chemical inbalance that addiction to any drugs cause in the mind.

Its the enemies favorite tools to get people addicted for sure i think, as demons are out to destroy the person they possess. and there out to attack the whole Body of christ which is us christians too, they want to detroy the temple of christ which also lives in us. This is why we are all at war and why they have declared war on us untill the end. So we really do need to suit up and boot up, because we are all creations of the light and the enmey hates all mankind because we are the light too. This i feal is why the enemy wants to darken us all.

They need a weakness or an open door i my self have suffered so badly i had brain injuries on two accasions that should have killed most people and i suffered my whole life because i was very young when it happened age 7 and 9 . As as a result of my Brain damage i suffered a severe trauma disorder and ptsd and memory disorder my whole life The enemy has had the better of me most of my life and i never knew.

I m on the mend and i know im better now and on the mend thanks to the heavens and probably prayer, Im getting better by the day. Anyway thanks for your support and may the lord bless you greatly today and keep you.

 

[de-emerald]

The bible says the flesh wars against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh.
So i feal that two go hand in hand the body (the flesh) has to be as good as you can get it.
Can we walk in the spirit as well when the body is suffering (ie the flesh)
Does this effect the fruits of the spirit that live in us, such as natures of peace
and walking in the spirit ? such as displaying fruits of the spirit like a forgiving spirit

Anxiety is a huge problem across the world and even the food we eat for many people can cause anxiety in the body which effects our very nature.
A huge amount of people have food intolerances and allergies that lead to digestive disorders. (negitive energy in our body (flesh) is a magnet for negitive energies ie denomic spirit who fead of fear and negativiety i feal.

The amount of people that take rennies is huge.
people may not realise this importance of this But the food we all eat is so important to our nature, i felt so much better in mind and body when i left out dairy and bread in my diet and switched to rice as a main supplement.

Upto that point my body was allways suffering fatigue and low self esteem headaches breathing problems heartburn i was allways strugling each day and unable to conentrate as well as i can now.

Jesus told us that if one part of our body should suffer the whole part of body can, but does enough people associate that to being overcome by demons also and should we associate the meaning of one part of the body suffering physically in the flesh, meaning can we overcome by denomic influence or even possesed.
Well i feal from reading scriptures that Jesus trained people to high standard in keeping the body healthy and clean in order to defeat demons.
And in order for his deciples to cast them out.

Scriptures from Jesus, like if we dont keep our house in order a demon can come back and repossess,, again tho do people associate that also to keeping the body in order.

I feal that not enough christians are aware just how easy it is for a person to become overcome by denomic influence or what is needed to become just as elite as the people whom Jesus trained.

I am also sure that there are hundreds of Scripture that people miss the mark on, that people do not associate those scriptures to overcoming denomic influncence, like say the scriptures that says Guard your heart because all the riches you have flow from there,

Would enough christians associate that scripture as a clear instruction that you must get the riches to flow in your heart to overcome denomic influence and to guard the heart.

Do enough christians know how to get the riches flowing in there heart
Such as practicing singing for a couple of hours a day.
Or doing practical things for each other praying for each other and more.

We are in a daily battle here and we must practice daily to better our nature.
The light that can shine in our hearts and mind from singing is so warming that i feal healing can take place through song, and heal a person in nature, and a person who has scars in the heart and mind can be healed.

So many people have scars in there heart and mind and there is a way to heal them.

Hers a nother point there are hundreds of scriptures about prayers all linked to overcoming the enemy but again do enough people realise the power in prayer or link the need for pray to overcome denomic possesion.

Like this prayer lord please open the eyes of the heart. the prayers sounds nice but theres more meaning to it and its opens the heart to the spirit where the light shines and demomic spirits can be cast out of a person.
Theres lot more to walking in the spirit than i feal most people realise such as
Folloing a strict set of to do lists and instruction that we must practice daily.

Anyhow thanks for reading lol i hope you enjoyed my imformitiveness. sorry that was a long one

 

[soberxp]

Your reflections on this: View attachment 228032

I 100% agree with you

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Your reflections on this: View attachment 228032

“By mercy and truth iniquity is purged:

and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭16:6‬ ‭

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Grace , truth And the fear of the lord

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭

the fear of God if it comes from Christ and is believed calls to repentance of things like an unforgiving heart acknowledgement births belief

 

[BillG]

Matthew 18:21-22

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

The Bible has plenty to say about forgiveness. Where the Old Testament focuses mainly on God's forgiveness of individuals or groups, the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels also address how human beings can and should forgive each other.

The word forgive in the bible can be translated as follows.

To send away to send forth, yield up, to expire, to let go, let alone, let be, to disregard, give up a debt, forgive, to remit to give up, keep no longer.

In certain contexts, forgiveness is a legal term for absolving or giving up all claims on account of debt, loan, obligation or other claims.

Psychologists generally define forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually deserve your forgiveness.


What is forgiveness?

It is a conscious choice that we make. Whether the person who hurt us apologises or not.
It is a shift in thinking towards someone who has hurt you.
It is letting go of the need for revenge and ill will.
It is choosing to remember no more what has been done to you.
It is acknowledging the pain and hurt you feel and walk in.
It is giving it up to God allowing him the right to take care of justice, his perfect justice.

What forgiveness is not.

It is not reconciliation.
It does not mean you have to restore a relationship.
It is not waiting for an apology before forgiving.
It is not always having to tell someone that we have forgiven them.
It is not just merely forgetting.
Is is not condoning or excusing what has been done.
It's not allowing the offence to recur again and again.
It does not replace justice. If an act against you is criminal you are free to instigate legal justice.

Consequences of unforgiveness.

Unforgiveness is a chain that will wrap itself around you. It will pull tighter and tighter. It will sap the very life out of you. It will make you miserable, angry, resentful. It will affect you health, cause anxiety, which leads to high blood pressure, release chemicals in your body that further increases anxiety, depression along with with physical symptoms of heart palpitations, breathing problems, tingling in your fingers and feet, not being able to sleep, not being able to function. These physical symptoms bring fear that further compound the physical and emotional symptoms.

MORE IMPORTANTLY IT AFFECTS YOUR RELATIONSHIPS, with other people that we have no need to forgive. We can withdraw or guard against friendships, be grumpy, irritable, mistrust and so on.

If it affects our relationships with other people you can guarantee it will affect our relationship with God.

The fact is, in the eyes of God unforgiveness is a sin. It can hinder our prayers, it will hinder our spiritual growth and it will hinder our witness.

Consequences of forgiveness.

First of all it helps with all the health issues mentioned above.
We see relationships with those around us in a different light.
We may see relationships restored.

The above are tangible benefits.

When we repent (make a conscious decision to forgive) of unforgiveness then we feel better about our relationship with God, we feel closer to God, we find it easier to come before him, speak to him, spend time with him.

Forgiveness is a one time event (what I mean is that at some point you choose to give it up) yet dealing with the consequences can be a process.

When we acknowledge the hurt and pain and any other negative emotion, the act of merely forgiving does not necessarily heal the negative aspects that we suffer.

This is where we are to bring it before God and ask him to heal us. These chains God wants to break, to heal, restore to you an inner peace, replace anger with love.

If we have allowed chains to wrap themselves around us they start to loosen when we allow God to work. When our chains are gone then we have FREEDOM.

This is the ultimate consequence and priceless benefit of forgiveness. Forgiveness is not just about better health and life satisfaction. It’s not just an aid for reducing stress and fighting depression. It is about becoming by grace what God is by nature: a person who loves, a person who forgives, a person who cares for the salvation of the entire world, one soul at a time.



Theologian Lewis Smedes writes, "To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. (Martin Luther King, Jr)

Never forget the three powerful resources you always have available to you: love, prayer, and forgiveness. (H. Jackson Brown, Jr.)

When you forgive, you in no way change the past - but you sure do change the future. (Bernard Meltzer)

To err is human; to forgive, divine. (Alexander Pope)

Footnote:

Secular psychology in the 1980's started to incorporate the principle of forgiveness into counselling. Even in the secular world there is a realisation that forgiveness plays a major part in the lives of those they counsel. So a biblical principle is slowly working its way into the non religious world around us.

They do however focus on the aspect of letting go, it's health benefits and coping mechanisms for anger etc. There are even documented steps to forgiveness programs that they follow.

Where they stop though is the fact then we have a Father who wants to heal pain an hurt. Our Father does not want to give us coping mechanisms he wants to dig it right out of us and replace it pure unadulterated love.

When I have talked to non Christians who struggle with hurt and pain I talk about forgiveness in the secular sense but then say, "Why cope with it when God wants to heal it?

The majority accept the concept of forgiveness but not God healing it (that comes down to faith)

Nevertheless revealing the need to forgive in the first place is the right thing to do.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Matthew 18:21-22

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

The Bible has plenty to say about forgiveness. Where the Old Testament focuses mainly on God's forgiveness of individuals or groups, the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels also address how human beings can and should forgive each other.

The word forgive in the bible can be translated as follows.

To send away to send forth, yield up, to expire, to let go, let alone, let be, to disregard, give up a debt, forgive, to remit to give up, keep no longer.

In certain contexts, forgiveness is a legal term for absolving or giving up all claims on account of debt, loan, obligation or other claims.

Psychologists generally define forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually deserve your forgiveness.


What is forgiveness?

It is a conscious choice that we make. Whether the person who hurt us apologises or not.
It is a shift in thinking towards someone who has hurt you.
It is letting go of the need for revenge and ill will.
It is choosing to remember no more what has been done to you.
It is acknowledging the pain and hurt you feel and walk in.
It is giving it up to God allowing him the right to take care of justice, his perfect justice.

What forgiveness is not.

It is not reconciliation.
It does not mean you have to restore a relationship.
It is not waiting for an apology before forgiving.
It is not always having to tell someone that we have forgiven them.
It is not just merely forgetting.
Is is not condoning or excusing what has been done.
It's not allowing the offence to recur again and again.
It does not replace justice. If an act against you is criminal you are free to instigate legal justice.

Consequences of unforgiveness.

Unforgiveness is a chain that will wrap itself around you. It will pull tighter and tighter. It will sap the very life out of you. It will make you miserable, angry, resentful. It will affect you health, cause anxiety, which leads to high blood pressure, release chemicals in your body that further increases anxiety, depression along with with physical symptoms of heart palpitations, breathing problems, tingling in your fingers and feet, not being able to sleep, not being able to function. These physical symptoms bring fear that further compound the physical and emotional symptoms.

MORE IMPORTANTLY IT AFFECTS YOUR RELATIONSHIPS, with other people that we have no need to forgive. We can withdraw or guard against friendships, be grumpy, irritable, mistrust and so on.

If it affects our relationships with other people you can guarantee it will affect our relationship with God.

The fact is, in the eyes of God unforgiveness is a sin. It can hinder our prayers, it will hinder our spiritual growth and it will hinder our witness.

Consequences of forgiveness.

First of all it helps with all the health issues mentioned above.
We see relationships with those around us in a different light.
We may see relationships restored.

The above are tangible benefits.

When we repent (make a conscious decision to forgive) of unforgiveness then we feel better about our relationship with God, we feel closer to God, we find it easier to come before him, speak to him, spend time with him.

Forgiveness is a one time event (what I mean is that at some point you choose to give it up) yet dealing with the consequences can be a process.

When we acknowledge the hurt and pain and any other negative emotion, the act of merely forgiving does not necessarily heal the negative aspects that we suffer.

This is where we are to bring it before God and ask him to heal us. These chains God wants to break, to heal, restore to you an inner peace, replace anger with love.

If we have allowed chains to wrap themselves around us they start to loosen when we allow God to work. When our chains are gone then we have FREEDOM.

This is the ultimate consequence and priceless benefit of forgiveness. Forgiveness is not just about better health and life satisfaction. It’s not just an aid for reducing stress and fighting depression. It is about becoming by grace what God is by nature: a person who loves, a person who forgives, a person who cares for the salvation of the entire world, one soul at a time.



Theologian Lewis Smedes writes, "To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. (Martin Luther King, Jr)

Never forget the three powerful resources you always have available to you: love, prayer, and forgiveness. (H. Jackson Brown, Jr.)

When you forgive, you in no way change the past - but you sure do change the future. (Bernard Meltzer)

To err is human; to forgive, divine. (Alexander Pope)

Footnote:

Secular psychology in the 1980's started to incorporate the principle of forgiveness into counselling. Even in the secular world there is a realisation that forgiveness plays a major part in the lives of those they counsel. So a biblical principle is slowly working its way into the non religious world around us.

They do however focus on the aspect of letting go, it's health benefits and coping mechanisms for anger etc. There are even documented steps to forgiveness programs that they follow.

Where they stop though is the fact then we have a Father who wants to heal pain an hurt. Our Father does not want to give us coping mechanisms he wants to dig it right out of us and replace it pure unadulterated love.

When I have talked to non Christians who struggle with hurt and pain I talk about forgiveness in the secular sense but then say, "Why cope with it when God wants to heal it?

The majority accept the concept of forgiveness but not God healing it (that comes down to faith)

Nevertheless revealing the need to forgive in the first place is the right thing to do.

ultimately forgiveness is a matter of salvation as well as all in your post

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭

which makes it of utmost importance to a believer grave and truth help purge iniquity but it’s still the fear of the lord that causes men to depart from evil , like unforgivness that condemns us

“By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭16:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We want to make forgiving others our priority because it’s a matter of wterbal
Life in the kingdom

 

[BillG]

ultimately forgiveness is a matter of salvation as well as all in your post

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭

which makes it of utmost importance to a believer grave and truth help purge iniquity but it’s still the fear of the lord that causes men to depart from evil , like unforgivness that condemns us

“By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭16:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We want to make forgiving others our priority because it’s a matter of wterbal
Life in the kingdom

And to what n'th degree would you take this to?

What if a Christian dies before forgiving someone?
Are you saying they have lost their salvation?

If so then effectively you are saying that this is in fact the and or unforgivable sin?

In the model prayer Jesus says "Forgive us our sins as we forgive others"
So that being the case our sins that need forgiven are our daily sins we commit.
If we look at our daily sins they may be plenty but not necessarily related to forgiving others.

So if we commit a sin let's say cheating on a tax return then do we lose our salvation?

You obviously believe that not forgiving others is a sin that leads to loss of salvation.
So how are our daily sins forgiven?

Is it possible that as a result of faith in Jesus that our sins are covered by his death and resurrection actually affect our relationship with God (as I point out in my post) but salvation is not lost?

Don't get me wrong I'm not advocating do what you want with no regards to wanting to be like Jesus.

I'm an advocate when I'm walking with Christians who are struggling to look at unforgiveness and walk them through the process.

For me it's relational with God and not a salvation issue for genuine believers.

 

[de-emerald]

Unforgiving spirit comes from the enemy not christians.
Because you dont forgive someone straight away does not mean you have an unforgiving spirit, God knows your heart and thats that.

Christian should not judge each others walk if they have not forgiven someone else straight away. Which i have to say the op of this thread has achieved just that.
Or should i say the enemy

 

[BillG]

The most difficult thing is to forgive. Can you forgive those who bullied you in school, a violent father, a friend who betrayed you, church members who’ve exploited you, etc. We search our hearts, and find we cannot forgive.

Only God can help us forgive...and forget.

Even if we say we forgive, can we ever forget?
God forgives and forgets. Heb 8:8-12, New Covenant.

I agree with most of what you have said.

Hebrews 8:12

For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more

He doesn't forget but chooses to rember them no more.
For me that means he as set them aside and has removed our sins as far as the east is from the west. Buried them in the deepest ocean.

We will never forget as such. Satan will attack us in this area but when he does we put it aside, cast it away. Satan will do his best to mess with our heads "Have you really forgiven or been forgiven?