The Authority of Man

[PaulChristensen]

I was having a conversation with the Lord about authority and discussed about a church pastor who tried to tell me to come under his authority, and how I gave the puffed up peacock the bum's rush. A verse of Scripture came to me:
"You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men" (1 Corinthians 7:23)

What this means that we have only one master - Christ. This is not to say that we have mentors who give us sound discipleship and confirm our faith in Christ. But the attitude of these ones is "Be followers of me as I am of Christ" (1 Corinthians 11:1). The good discipler shows an example of following Christ, and instead of forcing his own authority on his disciple, he points to the only Master of believers. Jesus Christ Himself.

The bottom line is this:
"No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other" (Matthew 6:24).
I know that Jesus referred to having money as a master instead of God, but the principle is still the same, we cannot have Christ as our Master, and be under the authority of a man or group of men as masters.

If we put ourselves under the authority of men, we are no longer under the lordship of Christ. He is no longer our Master, the man or group of men are our masters instead. It means that as soon as we place ourselves under man's authority, we are no longer following Christ. We are rejecting Christ in favour of men, putting ourselves in a very serious situation concerning whether we are really committed to Christ or not.

This shows the the corruption of the Shepherding Movement, where "disciplers" and "shepherds" exerted their own authority on believers, causing immeasurable harm.

An example was in a New Zealand small town where there was a Pentecostal church. A group of people wanted to plant their own church, and the leader went, out of respect to the pastor of the existing church to inform him that a new Pentecostal church group was being planted and that they could work together in harmony. The pastor said, "This is my town, and I'm going to make sure that your church never gets off the ground". In six months, that Pentecostal church folded, and the pastor was out of the ministry, while the new church grew and flourished. This is an example where a pastor was setting up his own authority and not following Christ. The consequence was that the Holy Spirit took his ministry away from him and probably got into heaven by the skin of his teeth. The tragedy is that by asserting his own authority, he was deceiving his people and getting in between them and Christ.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I think ultimately brother it’s a matter of whether we find a good pastor and leader , they won’t be explaining you need to come under thier authority quoting things said to godly men who raised the dead like Peter

Now days we are lucky to find a pastor who believes the Bible is true and should be what creates their sermons , to me this says a lot out the church being scattered across the globe and a great famine across the nations of hearing his word

I think if we came across someone who was full of the Holy Ghost and had authority like Jesus have those men to heal And raise the dead and do things by the spirit those signs and wonders it might be different but I agree we have Christs authority over each person

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

Things like this have me really reexamining all that it says about the churches in the bible. For the longest time, my family believed we needed to be in a church because "where 3 are gathered together there am I in the midst of them" sort of.

But I've come to see the churches as Egypt and the Exodus as God calling us out of the organized churches (task masters) and into "private tutelage" with the Holy Spirit.

Churches can still be the solid pillars of communities necessary for a "moral people" but not all churches are standing on fundamental principles anymore. My father was a church elder for as long as possible. But, he left the church when he and his friend fell into the voting minority against hiring a woman pastor among other things they felt the church was in error. His friend also left. The church lost 2 faithful, conscientious elders that were steering the church on its path, but when they became minority votes, they had no more influence and no proper service left to provide.

And the intellectual/theological pursuits seem to sidestep a more spiritually intuitive nature required to really learn.
The law is in us, we should be able to "feel" and "follow" it. But importantly, we must study it because ...

Psalm 119:93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

 

[Blik]

Just think!! of how much organized churches have changed since Christ established The Way, the first church denomination. Those first churches recognized Jewish synagogues, even, as worshiping the same God they worshiped. They were small groups of people very interested in each other's welfare. They had no doubt that their eternal life was more important that their fleshly life. They would freely die for their faith.

It took 300 years of men's leadership rather than the Lord's leadership to change the church to the additions to scripture that men have given it. With the wars that Rome waged against the Jews during those years the Jews were killed off so blood ran in the streets. Before that, Christian Jews led the Christian Church, some even keeping the Jewish rituals. They knew scripture thoroughly, they considered it true scripture. The gentiles knew little about the one true God that scripture teaches, they created a church without the study of God's ways that the scripture of that tine would have given them.

True Christians make sure that their studies are not of men's doctrine but keep strictly to scripture. They even look carefully to each "Jewish" rituals to be sure it is God's way to eliminate them and not men's idea. The gentiles who took over leadership of the Christian church not only had little knowledge of scripture, but they had been children raised to idol worship so holidays to them were such as the winter solstice and springtime rites. They Christianized them rather than change to God's ways.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Things like this have me really reexamining all that it says about the churches in the bible. For the longest time, my family believed we needed to be in a church because "where 3 are gathered together there am I in the midst of them" sort of.

But I've come to see the churches as Egypt and the Exodus as God calling us out of the organized churches (task masters) and into "private tutelage" with the Holy Spirit.

Churches can still be the solid pillars of communities necessary for a "moral people" but not all churches are standing on fundamental principles anymore. My father was a church elder for as long as possible. But, he left the church when he and his friend fell into the voting minority against hiring a woman pastor among other things they felt the church was in error. His friend also left. The church lost 2 faithful, conscientious elders that were steering the church on its path, but when they became minority votes, they had no more influence and no proper service left to provide.

And the intellectual/theological pursuits seem to sidestep a more spiritually intuitive nature required to really learn.
The law is in us, we should be able to "feel" and "follow" it. But importantly, we must study it because ...

Psalm 119:93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

I agree with a lot of what you said , I think I would point to the importance of hearing and believing in order to let him write on our hearts what’s meant to be there I don’t think honestly it’s intuitive I think humans pull is toward sin

believing the gospel requires a certain function

The importance of Jesus sending our believers everywhere into the world until the end of time , to share the gospel in a dark world

“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:13-17‬ ‭

we don’t know the truth until we hear it then We can believe but few share what Jesus said most want to say what they have to say at least from the experiences I’ve had

Most to include thier self importance . Honestly the pastor isn’t supposed to necessarily be the speaker it’s meant to be 2-3 of the congregation speaking in turn and the rest considering what they said pastors role was a servant of his flock tending to nth ire needs and so the administration parts making decisions for the flock

those with certain gifts were to speak while others carried out thier roles

biblically I’ve never seen a church like the one in acts how it’s formed and functions I mean by the gifts of the spirit including all it’s more like going to a speaker listening to thier opinion out three verses

I think we’re definately close because everything looks different than the scripture says it’s supposed to

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

Just think!! of how much organized churches have changed since Christ established The Way, the first church denomination. Those first churches recognized Jewish synagogues, even, as worshiping the same God they worshiped. They were small groups of people very interested in each other's welfare. They had no doubt that their eternal life was more important that their fleshly life. They would freely die for their faith.

It took 300 years of men's leadership rather than the Lord's leadership to change the church to the additions to scripture that men have given it. With the wars that Rome waged against the Jews during those years the Jews were killed off so blood ran in the streets. Before that, Christian Jews led the Christian Church, some even keeping the Jewish rituals. They knew scripture thoroughly, they considered it true scripture. The gentiles knew little about the one true God that scripture teaches, they created a church without the study of God's ways that the scripture of that tine would have given them.

True Christians make sure that their studies are not of men's doctrine but keep strictly to scripture. They even look carefully to each "Jewish" rituals to be sure it is God's way to eliminate them and not men's idea. The gentiles who took over leadership of the Christian church not only had little knowledge of scripture, but they had been children raised to idol worship so holidays to them were such as the winter solstice and springtime rites. They Christianized them rather than change to God's ways.

I think that's kind of the point, what you say about the gentiles.

Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

But God made provision for us by having his word translated. And I have all confidence that he managed the entire translating of his word, even the errors. We don't have to be Hebrews or speak Hebrew or know Hebrew customs to know God. He provided for us.

 

[PaulChristensen]

I think ultimately brother it’s a matter of whether we find a good pastor and leader , they won’t be explaining you need to come under thier authority quoting things said to godly men who raised the dead like Peter

Now days we are lucky to find a pastor who believes the Bible is true and should be what creates their sermons , to me this says a lot out the church being scattered across the globe and a great famine across the nations of hearing his word

I think if we came across someone who was full of the Holy Ghost and had authority like Jesus have those men to heal And raise the dead and do things by the spirit those signs and wonders it might be different but I agree we have Christs authority over each person

As beauty is in the eye of the beholder, true godly authority is in the view of the person deciding whether or not to submit to the leader.

 

[Blik]

I think that's kind of the point, what you say about the gentiles.

Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

But God made provision for us by having his word translated. And I have all confidence that he managed the entire translating of his word, even the errors. We don't have to be Hebrews or speak Hebrew or know Hebrew customs to know God. He provided for us.

What we have to know that God is eternal, and that God does not disagree with God. Scripture is true and agrees from Genesis to Revelation, and we need the entire word. If we think the old testament God is different from the new testament God, we do not know the one true God.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Things like this have me really reexamining all that it says about the churches in the bible. For the longest time, my family believed we needed to be in a church because "where 3 are gathered together there am I in the midst of them" sort of.

But I've come to see the churches as Egypt and the Exodus as God calling us out of the organized churches (task masters) and into "private tutelage" with the Holy Spirit.

Churches can still be the solid pillars of communities necessary for a "moral people" but not all churches are standing on fundamental principles anymore. My father was a church elder for as long as possible. But, he left the church when he and his friend fell into the voting minority against hiring a woman pastor among other things they felt the church was in error. His friend also left. The church lost 2 faithful, conscientious elders that were steering the church on its path, but when they became minority votes, they had no more influence and no proper service left to provide.

And the intellectual/theological pursuits seem to sidestep a more spiritually intuitive nature required to really learn.
The law is in us, we should be able to "feel" and "follow" it. But importantly, we must study it because ...

Psalm 119:93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

The visible church is designed to be a testimony to the reality of Christ in the world. If the church is functioning as it should in the Holy Spirit, then it is a blessing and a power for spreading the Gospel of Christ, reflecting the grace, love, and compassion of Christ seeking to save the lost.

But when the church is not function as it should in the Holy Spirit, it can be a barrier to what the Holy Spirit wants to do in the world.

 

[Nehemiah6]

This shows the the corruption of the Shepherding Movement, where "disciplers" and "shepherds" exerted their own authority on believers, causing immeasurable harm.

While the Shepherding Movement is false, you cannot deny that the Lord established what is called "the presbytery" in Scripture -- a plurality of elders in each church, not as lords over the flock, but as examples and overseers.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

What we have to know that God is eternal, and that God does not disagree with God. Scripture is true and agrees from Genesis to Revelation, and we need the entire word. If we think the old testament God is different from the new testament God, we do not know the one true God.

What's this got to do with what I said? Where did I say God was different from one testament to the next?

 

[jb]

I was having a conversation with the Lord about authority and discussed about a church pastor who tried to tell me to come under his authority, and how I gave the puffed up peacock the bum's rush. A verse of Scripture came to me:
"You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men" (1 Corinthians 7:23)

What this means that we have only one master - Christ. This is not to say that we have mentors who give us sound discipleship and confirm our faith in Christ. But the attitude of these ones is "Be followers of me as I am of Christ" (1 Corinthians 11:1). The good discipler shows an example of following Christ, and instead of forcing his own authority on his disciple, he points to the only Master of believers. Jesus Christ Himself.

The bottom line is this:
"No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other" (Matthew 6:24).
I know that Jesus referred to having money as a master instead of God, but the principle is still the same, we cannot have Christ as our Master, and be under the authority of a man or group of men as masters.

If we put ourselves under the authority of men, we are no longer under the lordship of Christ. He is no longer our Master, the man or group of men are our masters instead. It means that as soon as we place ourselves under man's authority, we are no longer following Christ. We are rejecting Christ in favour of men, putting ourselves in a very serious situation concerning whether we are really committed to Christ or not.

This shows the the corruption of the Shepherding Movement, where "disciplers" and "shepherds" exerted their own authority on believers, causing immeasurable harm.

An example was in a New Zealand small town where there was a Pentecostal church. A group of people wanted to plant their own church, and the leader went, out of respect to the pastor of the existing church to inform him that a new Pentecostal church group was being planted and that they could work together in harmony. The pastor said, "This is my town, and I'm going to make sure that your church never gets off the ground". In six months, that Pentecostal church folded, and the pastor was out of the ministry, while the new church grew and flourished. This is an example where a pastor was setting up his own authority and not following Christ. The consequence was that the Holy Spirit took his ministry away from him and probably got into heaven by the skin of his teeth. The tragedy is that by asserting his own authority, he was deceiving his people and getting in between them and Christ.

1Peter 5v5: "Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble."

What is being referred to here is not some kind of dictatorial submission, but a reasoned loving submission...So, this is encouraging Pastors to submit to their their flock and their flock submitting to them...

 

[Evmur]

New wine needs new wineskins .... we had a beautiful reformation of doctrine in the 16th century but no reformation or not much in church structures, and we still don't.

The question is where does the authority lie? and the answer is in the local assembly, the Holy Spirit being manifest. Paul in the matter of the great sinner at Corinth admonished them for not acting as the assembly to deal with the matter.

If the assembly does take authority then it should be obeyed.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

As beauty is in the eye of the beholder, true godly authority is in the view of the person deciding whether or not to submit to the leader.

To stand in Darkness or in light is what changes the view of the believer deciding faith comes frown dwelling in his light , light is all that cleanses shadow

mans dominion and sin covered the world and people in darkness , God began to whisper on prophecy of his solution to save them

“For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

...The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the Lord shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭60:2-3, 5, 12, 19-21‬

“Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭51:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

eventually we see the light he was whispering about come to cleanse the darkness in man

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1, 4-5, 9-14, 16-18‬

it would be to call us out of darkness in believing the gospel into the light and this would put the light within us

“Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

An imparting of the light to man who was partly darkened

“Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:14-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The gospel and acceptance is salvstion his judgement is the light Gods work in us his judgement saves us if we partake now rather than be judged by the same judgement later and having rejected it








“Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

New wine needs new wineskins .... we had a beautiful reformation of doctrine in the 16th century but no reformation or not much in church structures, and we still don't.

The question is where does the authority lie? and the answer is in the local assembly, the Holy Spirit being manifest. Paul in the matter of the great sinner at Corinth admonished them for not acting as the assembly to deal with the matter.

If the assembly does take authority then it should be obeyed.

And if the "assembly" hires women clergy or performs gay matrimonial ceremonies or shows reverence to statues? Should they be obeyed?

 

[SophieT]

What we have to know that God is eternal, and that God does not disagree with God. Scripture is true and agrees from Genesis to Revelation, and we need the entire word. If we think the old testament God is different from the new testament God, we do not know the one true God.

no difference at all

BUT

as promised in Genesis, a solution to our separation from God and actual forgiveness of sins through the blood of Christ

emphasizing that God has not changed, is NOT a vehicle for observing OT law/sacrifice/days etc.

God has not changed, but animals no longer have to die. His Son died once for all.

 

[SophieT]

This shows the the corruption of the Shepherding Movement, where "disciplers" and "shepherds" exerted their own authority on believers, causing immeasurable harm.

didn't that movement start in the 70's or thereabouts? (just looked it up)

probably many do not even know what that is/was. pretty sure that is why we should have elders and others in church so as to avoid the problematical and eventual manipulating and so called 'authority'. an overseer will, by very definition, have more authority (given by God if I understand scripture...for example the disciples) but that should be balanced out. Anyway, no church or group should ever...repeat, ever...have one person that everyone kowtows to. that is a disaster waiting to happen

we are supposed to have and manifest, the gifts of the Spirit of God. churches have far too many 'leaders' who were never called to do what it is they think they are doing. the gifts are supposed to be for the edification and building up of the 'body' or church in this case since we are no longer all in Jerusalem

sadly, there is so much abuse even of the gifts and people who fancy themselves super special anointed whatevers, that many reject anything that even sounds like it is other than created by mankind

 

[SophieT]

As beauty is in the eye of the beholder, true godly authority is in the view of the person deciding whether or not to submit to the leader.

I don't think I am quite agreeing with this statement...unless I misunderstand it....

 

[Blik]

What's this got to do with what I said? Where did I say God was different from one testament to the next?

I do not reply to posts in order to disagree, that is not my aim. I was adding to what you said. We are Christians together, speaking of ways of our wonderful Lord together.

 

[pottersclay]

And if the "assembly" hires women clergy or performs gay matrimonial ceremonies or shows reverence to statues? Should they be obeyed?

Nope