The Authority of Man

[Pilgrimshope]

Just think!! of how much organized churches have changed since Christ established The Way, the first church denomination. Those first churches recognized Jewish synagogues, even, as worshiping the same God they worshiped. They were small groups of people very interested in each other's welfare. They had no doubt that their eternal life was more important that their fleshly life. They would freely die for their faith.

It took 300 years of men's leadership rather than the Lord's leadership to change the church to the additions to scripture that men have given it. With the wars that Rome waged against the Jews during those years the Jews were killed off so blood ran in the streets. Before that, Christian Jews led the Christian Church, some even keeping the Jewish rituals. They knew scripture thoroughly, they considered it true scripture. The gentiles knew little about the one true God that scripture teaches, they created a church without the study of God's ways that the scripture of that tine would have given them.

True Christians make sure that their studies are not of men's doctrine but keep strictly to scripture. They even look carefully to each "Jewish" rituals to be sure it is God's way to eliminate them and not men's idea. The gentiles who took over leadership of the Christian church not only had little knowledge of scripture, but they had been children raised to idol worship so holidays to them were such as the winter solstice and springtime rites. They Christianized them rather than change to God's ways.

yes but the Jewish leaders were the same

“And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the Lord; Thus saith the Lord God; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭13:1-4‬ ‭

some won’t see this but you know the wormwood in revelation that’s poured out and causes many to die because the waters are poison ?

It’s a spirit false prophecy that began in Jerusalem

“I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness:

they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭23:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And I will make Jerusalem heaps, and a den of dragons; and I will make the cities of Judah desolate, without an inhabitant. Who is the wise man, that may understand this?

and who is he to whom the mouth of the Lord hath spoken, that he may declare it, for what the land perisheth and is burned up like a wilderness, that none passeth through? And the Lord saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein; But have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them:

Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will feed them, even this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink. I will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their fathers have known: and I will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭9:1, 11-16‬ ‭

that’s the ot but the nt ups follow the same pattern the false doctrine is a bitter waters it’s poison to
Mans faith and soul

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God set the law before Israel and their leaders eventually led them astray. Telling them not the things in the law , but that thier sins were ok they were chosen and God was merciful they had forsaken Gods call of repentance

so he fed the people who desired the false doctrine with the doctrine they craved and it caused them to die spiritually . Based on the fact that they all rejected the law and had heard it every year but they chose the other waters the bitter ones rather than Gods living water

“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.”
‭‭John‬ ‭7:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus doctrine is the truth that comes out of all of those confusing ideas and lies he always had his own prophets calling for repentance but Jerusalem chose the serpents words again over his

the church is foretold to eventually do this and bring the world to an end as Jerusalem was laid low

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

I do not reply to posts in order to disagree, that is not my aim. I was adding to what you said. We are Christians together, speaking of ways of our wonderful Lord together.

I do not reply to posts in order to disagree, that is not my aim. I was adding to what you said. We are Christians together, speaking of ways of our wonderful Lord together.

Ah, I thought I said something wrong. I was wondering.

 

[CS1]

I was having a conversation with the Lord about authority and discussed about a church pastor who tried to tell me to come under his authority, and how I gave the puffed up peacock the bum's rush. A verse of Scripture came to me:
"You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men" (1 Corinthians 7:23)

What this means that we have only one master - Christ. This is not to say that we have mentors who give us sound discipleship and confirm our faith in Christ. But the attitude of these ones is "Be followers of me as I am of Christ" (1 Corinthians 11:1). The good discipler shows an example of following Christ, and instead of forcing his own authority on his disciple, he points to the only Master of believers. Jesus Christ Himself.

The bottom line is this:
"No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other" (Matthew 6:24).
I know that Jesus referred to having money as a master instead of God, but the principle is still the same, we cannot have Christ as our Master, and be under the authority of a man or group of men as masters.

If we put ourselves under the authority of men, we are no longer under the lordship of Christ. He is no longer our Master, the man or group of men are our masters instead. It means that as soon as we place ourselves under man's authority, we are no longer following Christ. We are rejecting Christ in favour of men, putting ourselves in a very serious situation concerning whether we are really committed to Christ or not.

This shows the the corruption of the Shepherding Movement, where "disciplers" and "shepherds" exerted their own authority on believers, causing immeasurable harm.

An example was in a New Zealand small town where there was a Pentecostal church. A group of people wanted to plant their own church, and the leader went, out of respect to the pastor of the existing church to inform him that a new Pentecostal church group was being planted and that they could work together in harmony. The pastor said, "This is my town, and I'm going to make sure that your church never gets off the ground". In six months, that Pentecostal church folded, and the pastor was out of the ministry, while the new church grew and flourished. This is an example where a pastor was setting up his own authority and not following Christ. The consequence was that the Holy Spirit took his ministry away from him and probably got into heaven by the skin of his teeth. The tragedy is that by asserting his own authority, he was deceiving his people and getting in between them and Christ.

the context of coming under the authority is submitting to the calling of that person's life that God has gifted. it is not worshiping the person, nor is it becoming a slave to him.

God has Placed Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers over the Body of Christ for one reason.

To help you become all God want you to be. I am submissive to my Pastor but that is solely in context to the work of the Lord and the vision God has called that Pastor too. No need to be a rebel, leave and go to a different place IF God has not called you there.

Your example is very interesting. You said :

A group of people wanted to plant their own church,

and you said "the leader went, out of respect to the pastor of the existing church to inform him that a new Pentecostal church group was being planted and that they could work together in harmony."


from your own example, I must ask what was the issue with the current church that the "Leader " as you say could not do there what they wanted to do in another church?

it is not respectfully for a so-called leader to tell the Pastor of that church in that town we are building another church and we want to be in harmony LOL. Sounds like those was a leader and not a Pastor. The very thing that was said that one would not do


"If we put ourselves under the authority of men, we are no longer under the lordship of Christ."

That is exactly what they did. The example you provided placed the pastor on the defense it was not done out of respect. IF it was then they should have " ( the Leader) had brought the concerns to the Pastor and talked the Elders and maybe question the direction of that church and vote him out. To me just because the church grew in size doesn't mean those on the outside of the church did not see the spirit of dissension.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

There is only One Who is Head over the church ... the Lord Jesus Christ. and He sets things in order in the church.

Ephesians 4:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


The apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher functions under the Head ... the Lord Jesus Christ ... and one point of gathering with other likeminded believers in a church setting is to learn about Him and how to live our lives in light of who we are in Him.

For the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ means to teach in such a manner that the body of believers is equipped for the work of the ministry of building up the body of Christ (the church).

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive means to teach in order to mature the believers so that they are well grounded in faith ... not carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.


How many churches have leadership in place which have a view of this section in Ephesians in mind?

How many believers go to a church which has leadership in place with a view of this section in Ephesians in mind?

 

[PaulChristensen]

To stand in Darkness or in light is what changes the view of the believer deciding faith comes frown dwelling in his light , light is all that cleanses shadow

mans dominion and sin covered the world and people in darkness , God began to whisper on prophecy of his solution to save them

“For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

...The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the Lord shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭60:2-3, 5, 12, 19-21‬

“Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭51:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

eventually we see the light he was whispering about come to cleanse the darkness in man

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1, 4-5, 9-14, 16-18‬

it would be to call us out of darkness in believing the gospel into the light and this would put the light within us

“Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

An imparting of the light to man who was partly darkened

“Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:14-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The gospel and acceptance is salvstion his judgement is the light Gods work in us his judgement saves us if we partake now rather than be judged by the same judgement later and having rejected it








“Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I fail to see your point among all the Scripture quotes that you have given.

 

[PaulChristensen]

I don't think I am quite agreeing with this statement...unless I misunderstand it....

What I meant was that just because a person says he has authority, doesn't mean that he actually has it. People will follow a person when they recognise the leadership quality in him.

 

[PaulChristensen]

the context of coming under the authority is submitting to the calling of that person's life that God has gifted. it is not worshiping the person, nor is it becoming a slave to him.

God has Placed Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers over the Body of Christ for one reason.

To help you become all God want you to be. I am submissive to my Pastor but that is solely in context to the work of the Lord and the vision God has called that Pastor too. No need to be a rebel, leave and go to a different place IF God has not called you there.

Your example is very interesting. You said :

A group of people wanted to plant their own church,

and you said "the leader went, out of respect to the pastor of the existing church to inform him that a new Pentecostal church group was being planted and that they could work together in harmony."


from your own example, I must ask what was the issue with the current church that the "Leader " as you say could not do there what they wanted to do in another church?

it is not respectfully for a so-called leader to tell the Pastor of that church in that town we are building another church and we want to be in harmony LOL. Sounds like those was a leader and not a Pastor. The very thing that was said that one would not do


"If we put ourselves under the authority of men, we are no longer under the lordship of Christ."

That is exactly what they did. The example you provided placed the pastor on the defense it was not done out of respect. IF it was then they should have " ( the Leader) had brought the concerns to the Pastor and talked the Elders and maybe question the direction of that church and vote him out. To me just because the church grew in size doesn't mean those on the outside of the church did not see the spirit of dissension.

The leader I was referring to was some who was called in to be a consultant by a group of people who did not go along with the Pentecostal pastor in that town, and could not go along with his dictatorial attitude and could not go along with what he was preaching. They wanted to form their own fellowship group, but wanted the Pastor assured that they were not about to poach any of his members.

 

[CS1]

The leader I was referring to was some who was called in to be a consultant by a group of people who did not go along with the Pentecostal pastor in that town, and could not go along with his dictatorial attitude and could not go along with what he was preaching. They wanted to form their own fellowship group but wanted the Pastor assured that they were not about to poach any of his members.

a consultant who did not go along with the Pastor? completely out of order.

 

[Blik]

yes but the Jewish leaders were the same

Isn't this the truth!! They even have a book called the Talmud they consider as truthful as scripture. I explored this once and found it even told how far it was permissible to walk on the Sabbath as if they had a right to say scripture tells them this.

I found a commentary and scripture study guide that is dedicated to never add man's thoughts to scripture but to list different places the same policies of the Lord are listed in scripture. This study guide shows the relationship between the old and new testaments. Once in awhile the author gives his opinion, but he carefully tells us it is his opinion in his care never to add to scripture. It is a very time consuming, deep, wonderful study, I love it.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

Isn't this the truth!! They even have a book called the Talmud they consider as truthful as scripture. I explored this once and found it even told how far it was permissible to walk on the Sabbath as if they had a right to say scripture tells them this.

I found a commentary and scripture study guide that is dedicated to never add man's thoughts to scripture but to list different places the same policies of the Lord are listed in scripture. This study guide shows the relationship between the old and new testaments. Once in awhile the author gives his opinion, but he carefully tells us it is his opinion in his care never to add to scripture. It is a very time consuming, deep, wonderful study, I love it.

When I hear the Talmud mentioned, these verses from Ezekiel always come to my mind:

Ezekiel 5:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her.

6 And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I fail to see your point among all the Scripture quotes that you have given.

Do you understand the scriptures though ?

“The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬



“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Isn't this the truth!! They even have a book called the Talmud they consider as truthful as scripture. I explored this once and found it even told how far it was permissible to walk on the Sabbath as if they had a right to say scripture tells them this.

I found a commentary and scripture study guide that is dedicated to never add man's thoughts to scripture but to list different places the same policies of the Lord are listed in scripture. This study guide shows the relationship between the old and new testaments. Once in awhile the author gives his opinion, but he carefully tells us it is his opinion in his care never to add to scripture. It is a very time consuming, deep, wonderful study, I love it.

yes, there’s nothing like the message the Holy Spirit purposes to be written and preserved and thank God it doesn’t change

you would think since eve and adam , man would learn to stick to Gods word and we can’t fail , but we’re guaranteed to fail if we don’t stick to the truth

“And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

same word spoken to man

“And the Lord said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”

‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

same word spoken to a dead man

“And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:43-44‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Same word

“And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭4:39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

same word

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and it was so ...

 

[PaulChristensen]

a consultant who did not go along with the Pastor? completely out of order.

When does the pastor of one church group have the right to exercise authority over another independent church group? That's just as much out of order as a Pentecostal pastor coming into our Union church and saying that we all must come under his authority!

 

[PaulChristensen]

Do you understand the scriptures though ?

“The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬



“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But what has this got to do with the topic of this thread?

 

[Blik]

yes, there’s nothing like the message the Holy Spirit purposes to be written and preserved and thank God it doesn’t change...

We must decide by what authority certain doctrines of the church was established.

The Lord tells us that certain very physical commands He gave the Hebrews were taken over by the Holy Spirit. The Lord commanded that foreskin by cut as a symbol of belonging to the Lord. They were told not to consider the meat from garbage eating animals food, as a symbol of keeping the mind clear of garbage. Etc. This has been expanded to "if the Jews do it, we are not to do it". That isn't what scripture tells us. But it doesn't tell us just what is included in this except for fleshly circumcision.

Man has added celebrating the salvation the Lord offers us with feasts as something we are not to do. I have questioned this in posts, and the result is personal attacks. and little scripture. They say the feasts are only Jewish, yet the Jews deny that Christ was God's plan for our salvation, saying the Messiah has not come yet, so the feasts are Christian rather than Jewish. The feasts are about God's plan of salvation.

I think there is more reasoning, study, praying, and listening to God as God speaks to us in scripture needed.

 

[Blik]

But what has this got to do with the topic of this thread?

Oops. I am responding to discussing policies pur to us by men instead of scripture, as this pastor is doing. Is this thread limited to only those people adding to scripture today? If it is I am WAY out of line.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

We must decide by what authority certain doctrines of the church was established.

The Lord tells us that certain very physical commands He gave the Hebrews were taken over by the Holy Spirit. The Lord commanded that foreskin by cut as a symbol of belonging to the Lord. They were told not to consider the meat from garbage eating animals food, as a symbol of keeping the mind clear of garbage. Etc. This has been expanded to "if the Jews do it, we are not to do it". That isn't what scripture tells us. But it doesn't tell us just what is included in this except for fleshly circumcision.

Man has added celebrating the salvation the Lord offers us with feasts as something we are not to do. I have questioned this in posts, and the result is personal attacks. and little scripture. They say the feasts are only Jewish, yet the Jews deny that Christ was God's plan for our salvation, saying the Messiah has not come yet, so the feasts are Christian rather than Jewish. The feasts are about God's plan of salvation.

I think there is more reasoning, study, praying, and listening to God as God speaks to us in scripture needed.

yes I think I understand what you are saying , the whole old is about the new really .

what helped me was to realize what happened at the very beginning I was reading this and didn’t understand what it meant as the author is explaining the difference in the two covenants

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;

and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The last part there I wasn’t grasping what was being said then I went back and looked after a frustrating attempt to make it mean other things in my head d saw this sequence of events

So the law was handed over to this ordination and God given authority

“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:20-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is from a section regarding the feasts that are figures of a future salvstion But here God has given this angel authority to pardon or not pardon thier sins and then warns them that he will not . And to speak for him he’s left the angel to ordain the law . And lord to mediate it .

Moses went up to receive the tablets after being made mediator by the people , but below the people were busy worshipping a false god already which was made by the high priest appointed by God to be his holy priest.


“And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it,

and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people,.....

...And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written. And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.

And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:7-11, 14-16, 19‬ ‭

I think if we recognize that the law was always broken and came after transgression , that this unforgiving angel was left in charge over the law mediated upon Moses intercession

we see a figure preaching the future messiah and it makes sense the. Why Moses taught this

“And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭19:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and Jesus taught this

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

one is Gods word through the savior and Lord , the other is Gods authority ordained by angels through Moses intercession by animal blood and his word that lacks the gospels foundation of God himself and his forgiving and merciful nature

where as the angel ordaining the ot was not the same . The two purposes of the law and gospel seems to be like Romans 3 the law is to hold us the whole rule guilty before God without excuse , because until we come to know sin we can’t repent of it . And the New Testament seems to promise a new creation , a new life within ,new heart and mind created in Christ

as a death of the ot and resurrection by the new

but this is all just my own thinking from some studies just a thought , nothing more

I for sure don’t have the understanding of the law and gospel that o need to have but I think it’s important to know that I don’t I just seem to believe the new is seperate from the old but the old witnesses that the new was to come

 

[Pilgrimshope]

But what has this got to do with the topic of this thread?

I got your message , sorry and God bless .

 

[Pilgrimshope]

We must decide by what authority certain doctrines of the church was established.

The Lord tells us that certain very physical commands He gave the Hebrews were taken over by the Holy Spirit. The Lord commanded that foreskin by cut as a symbol of belonging to the Lord. They were told not to consider the meat from garbage eating animals food, as a symbol of keeping the mind clear of garbage. Etc. This has been expanded to "if the Jews do it, we are not to do it". That isn't what scripture tells us. But it doesn't tell us just what is included in this except for fleshly circumcision.

Man has added celebrating the salvation the Lord offers us with feasts as something we are not to do. I have questioned this in posts, and the result is personal attacks. and little scripture. They say the feasts are only Jewish, yet the Jews deny that Christ was God's plan for our salvation, saying the Messiah has not come yet, so the feasts are Christian rather than Jewish. The feasts are about God's plan of salvation.

I think there is more reasoning, study, praying, and listening to God as God speaks to us in scripture needed.

I hope to discuss with you in a more hospitable thread was enjoying and actually learning some things God bless I’m a drop this one

 

[Blik]

yes I think I understand what you are saying , the whole old is about the new really .

what helped me was to realize what happened at the very beginning I was reading this and didn’t understand what it meant as the author is explaining the difference in the two covenants

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;

and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The last part there I wasn’t grasping what was being said then I went back and looked after a frustrating attempt to make it mean other things in my head d saw this sequence of events

So the law was handed over to this ordination and God given authority

“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:20-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is from a section regarding the feasts that are figures of a future salvstion But here God has given this angel authority to pardon or not pardon thier sins and then warns them that he will not . And to speak for him he’s left the angel to ordain the law . And lord to mediate it .

Moses went up to receive the tablets after being made mediator by the people , but below the people were busy worshipping a false god already which was made by the high priest appointed by God to be his holy priest.


“And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it,

and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people,.....

...And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written. And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.

And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:7-11, 14-16, 19‬ ‭

I think if we recognize that the law was always broken and came after transgression , that this unforgiving angel was left in charge over the law mediated upon Moses intercession

we see a figure preaching the future messiah and it makes sense the. Why Moses taught this

“And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭19:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and Jesus taught this

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

one is Gods word through the savior and Lord , the other is Gods authority ordained by angels through Moses intercession by animal blood and his word that lacks the gospels foundation of God himself and his forgiving and merciful nature

where as the angel ordaining the ot was not the same . The two purposes of the law and gospel seems to be like Romans 3 the law is to hold us the whole rule guilty before God without excuse , because until we come to know sin we can’t repent of it . And the New Testament seems to promise a new creation , a new life within ,new heart and mind created in Christ

as a death of the ot and resurrection by the new

but this is all just my own thinking from some studies just a thought , nothing more

I for sure don’t have the understanding of the law and gospel that o need to have but I think it’s important to know that I don’t I just seem to believe the new is seperate from the old but the old witnesses that the new was to come

Both the old and new covenants are about the same law,

The slaves that followed Moses to freedom were a mixed group of people, not only Hebrews. They had grown up in terrible conditions, they didn't know the God Abraham knew any more. Moses was given the job of shaping them up and teaching quite a wild bunch of people. They wouldn't have understood the new covenant. They were given the law in stone they could understand. That was after people began to keep the law in stone, like cutting foreskin, and saying it was keeping the law. The new covenant gives us the true law of the Lord.

The Holy Spirit tells us to keep our mind clean and not let in dirty thoughts, they were told to eat clean foods, not foods from animals that ate garbage. The law is put in our hearts, but first the Hebrews had to be taught what that law meant in terms of daily living. The new covenant gives us that in the spirit of the Lord, not in hard stone. It includes love.

I really don't think the new better covenant tells us not to celebrate our salvation with feasting and celebrations. We celebrate the birth of Christ, it is good. But how much better to celebrate all of what God has done for us. I think it was added on the authority of man, not the authority of God.