The Authority of Man

[PaulChristensen]

Oops. I am responding to discussing policies pur to us by men instead of scripture, as this pastor is doing. Is this thread limited to only those people adding to scripture today? If it is I am WAY out of line.

You're not out of line. Yes, there are those who add to the Scripture by imposing their own doctrinal ideals on the rest of us, using, in some cases, just one random verse out of context. Then they tack on the Name of Jesus to add weight to their "authority"; but in doing so end up taking the Lord's name in vain.

This thread is also about a pastor, elder, or just a spiritually entitled "Kevin" (the male equivalent of an entitled "Karen") pinning the "authority" badge on their chest and being the spiritual "police", expecting others to come under their self-appointed authority.

We have all met them: Puffed up peacocks who think they have a special standing with the Lord that us mere mortals don't. But when you turn a peacock with its fancy feathers around and look at its rear, you realise that like all the rest of us, they have a butt hole. So, these jumped up pretenders have to use the toilet like all the rest of us, and in terms of pride, the toilet seat is a great leveller. And we all have to use the aerosol deodorant afterward!

So when I encounter one of the spiritually entitled pelicans, I just imagine them sitting, breaking wind on the toilet, and that puts them in the right perspective for me.

This does not mean that I don't submit myself to genuine godly leadership who are true representatives of Christ. It is just that I refuse to follow someone who doesn't follow Christ!

 

[PaulChristensen]

I got your message , sorry and God bless .

Don't worry about it. It was just that I didn't understand what you were wanting to express. Because this is my thread, you are quite free to say what you want. Sometimes when the original topic of a thread has run its course, introducing a related topic keeps the interest going and the thread alive. Just like a men's Bible study I used to attend. We would start with the main topic, but we would go into so many different streams of it, that it made the evening interesting and stimulating, and no-one seemed to mind that we got right off topic and out into left field at times!

What spoils a thread is when two members decided to have their own two-horse personal debate on a side topic, with personal "you" comments, followed by defensive ones, and the exchange turns into "he says, then he says, then he says", ad nauseum. When that happens everyone else abandons the thread and leaves the "two horses" to it. It is usually at that stage I ask for the thread to be closed down.

 

[Evmur]

And if the "assembly" hires women clergy or performs gay matrimonial ceremonies or shows reverence to statues? Should they be obeyed?

Such an assembly would not be "the" assembly, not the assembly of God [not the denomination] not proven disciples of Jesus Christ.

There should be no clergy

 

[CS1]

When does the pastor of one church group have the right to exercise authority over another independent church group? That's just as much out of order as a Pentecostal pastor coming into our Union church and saying that we all must come under his authority!

what was said here had nothing to do with authority. you're saying a consultant who actually was " leader " divided a church. you keep adding to the story I do not believe this story. I'm done.

 

[CS1]

what I find hilarious is many will talk about how the church should be done and how the pastor should be but don't go to church LOL.

hearing the things they say I'm sure the churches and pastors are not missing them much. I heard people this about churches and pastors.

1. I don't come under the authority of any man but God = I am arrogant and prideful and know more than the pastor.
2. The pastor doesn't teach the word of God and has misquoted scripture at the pulpit= willing to tear down the Pastor because he hurt my feeling
3. the church doesn't love or show love= the pastor has spoken out against sexual sin and taught those who do them will go to hell.
4. the pastor would not let me start my ministry there and was not following the holy Spirit= I know better than the pastor what is the mission of the church more so than the board members and leadership
5. the leadership at that church is ungodly= They did not vote for me to be a board member or decon and I gave more and did more than any other.

YET these types don't go to church today LOL. Hypocrites, unruly, and owning discord amongst the brethren, From such stay away from. don't even listen to them. They are hateful, angry, and want nothing more than to hurt a church.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Both the old and new covenants are about the same law,

The slaves that followed Moses to freedom were a mixed group of people, not only Hebrews. They had grown up in terrible conditions, they didn't know the God Abraham knew any more. Moses was given the job of shaping them up and teaching quite a wild bunch of people. They wouldn't have understood the new covenant. They were given the law in stone they could understand. That was after people began to keep the law in stone, like cutting foreskin, and saying it was keeping the law. The new covenant gives us the true law of the Lord.

The Holy Spirit tells us to keep our mind clean and not let in dirty thoughts, they were told to eat clean foods, not foods from animals that ate garbage. The law is put in our hearts, but first the Hebrews had to be taught what that law meant in terms of daily living. The new covenant gives us that in the spirit of the Lord, not in hard stone. It includes love.

I really don't think the new better covenant tells us not to celebrate our salvation with feasting and celebrations. We celebrate the birth of Christ, it is good. But how much better to celebrate all of what God has done for us. I think it was added on the authority of man, not the authority of God.

Yes no I don’t think there’s anything wrong with celebrating the lord with feasts at all I don’t think that it’s required now as then.

but I find agreement with you , the people were different so the law was different .

it’s definately not the same law though one is designed for the unrepentant sinners the other is for the repentant sinners they are contrary

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you see what I mean you can’t obey both Moses and Jesus . Moses allowed sinners to take their ewual revenge wrong for wrong made it equal

Jesus taught the opposite someone who wrongs you , you pray for them , you don’t retaliate evil for evil

the two laws are contrary because one is for the flesh servants the other is for the spiritual children

One stones a sinner to death by command of God , but the other judges those throwing stones forgives the adulterer and preached repentance to her

Moses wasn’t about saving sinners but putting them to death the salvstion didn’t come until jesus began preaching the gospel.

“And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? ( Leviticus 20:10)

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers?

hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:3-5, 7, 9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the gospel is salvstion the law was about why we need salvstion

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think the law is for that purpose and gospel for this one

“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:21-22, 28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Blik]

Yes no I don’t think there’s anything wrong with celebrating the lord with feasts at all I don’t think that it’s required now as then.

but I find agreement with you , the people were different so the law was different .

it’s definately not the same law though one is designed for the unrepentant sinners the other is for the repentant sinners they are contrary

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you see what I mean you can’t obey both Moses and Jesus . Moses allowed sinners to take their ewual revenge wrong for wrong made it equal

Jesus taught the opposite someone who wrongs you , you pray for them , you don’t retaliate evil for evil

the two laws are contrary because one is for the flesh servants the other is for the spiritual children

One stones a sinner to death by command of God , but the other judges those throwing stones forgives the adulterer and preached repentance to her

Moses wasn’t about saving sinners but putting them to death the salvstion didn’t come until jesus began preaching the gospel.

“And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? ( Leviticus 20:10)

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers?

hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:3-5, 7, 9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the gospel is salvstion the law was about why we need salvstion

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think the law is for that purpose and gospel for this one

“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:21-22, 28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To me it seems very important that we recognize the sameness in the law as it was given in stone to Moses and the law as given in our hearts by the Holy Spirit given to all. Just as we need to recognize the difference. We can obey the law in stone as the Pharisee obeyed it in the parable of the Samaritan, because the Pharisee obeyed the command in stone not to work on the Sabbath. The same law is given through the heart, and keeping the Sabbath holy is to help the injured man.

 

[PaulChristensen]

what was said here had nothing to do with authority. you're saying a consultant who actually was " leader " divided a church. you keep adding to the story I do not believe this story. I'm done.

I made it quite clear that it was another independent group and not part of the existing church. The only similarity was that it also had a Pentecostal character. The incoming group was not part of the Pastor's church, and the intention was to plant their church in that town. The Pastor was informed out of courtesy. The incoming group was not required to inform him at all, nor did they have to come under his authority to plant a church in that town.

The problem was that he assumed that he had overall authority over all Pentecostals, and potential converts in that town and resented the idea of another group planting a church in "my town".

I just don't understand why you think that an independent group of believers planting their own church in a town should come under the authority of a pastor of an existing church in that town.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

To me it seems very important that we recognize the sameness in the law as it was given in stone to Moses and the law as given in our hearts by the Holy Spirit given to all. Just as we need to recognize the difference. We can obey the law in stone as the Pharisee obeyed it in the parable of the Samaritan, because the Pharisee obeyed the command in stone not to work on the Sabbath. The same law is given through the heart, and keeping the Sabbath holy is to help the injured man.

the law is for sinners Who won’t repent

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭


all the law can do is condemn and bring guilt it doesn’t matter how we obey it

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭

when you read the commandment “Thou shalt not covet” it brings the knowledge of sin like this

“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:7-8‬ ‭

It brings the knowledge of sin and produces fruits of death being transgression we need to be as if we are dead to the old law and alive to the gospel

“Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We’re not capable of righteousness under the law because it’s meant to bring the knowledge of sin . It prepares sinners for repentance and remission of sins which is the New Testament

I don’t see them as the same law the entire covenant changed including the word of law

“For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that angel that was left in charge over the law that was unforgiving , that makes it a seperate law ot was a seperate ordination not of the same as Christ

The purpose of the law was temporary until Christ came and the ordination came from God

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christ is greater than angels just as his ordination of high priest is greater than that of earth the word itself is far better in the New Testament and isn’t according to old covenant law

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-32‬ ‭


I think it’s important we don’t try to make two covenants for when they don’t or we have Christians causing others casting stones not showing mercy to sinners eye for an eye divorcing for any cause Like Moses taught

the thing is Moses taught one thing then Jesus taught something completely different out the same things so it’s definately it’s own covenant one doesn’t transgress the other but indtewd it’s what God said he was going to do something new

“Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old. Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭43:18-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the things on our heart aren’t the same things on the stone it’s better made for the heart not stone. Stone is external and we have to carry it on our neck , on the heart it’s written by Jesus words spoken to the heart


“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

one is written on stone for the children of Israel and the other is written on the heart of anyone who will hear and believe what he spoke into our hearts

 

[SophieT]

What I meant was that just because a person says he has authority, doesn't mean that he actually has it. People will follow a person when they recognise the leadership quality in him.

OK. Understand now. thanks ... I agree

 

[Blik]

the law is for sinners Who won’t repent

I think the law is holy, the law is part of creation. We would not understand good if we didn't have bad. There was a difference between the law in stone and the law in our hearts, it is true, but such as---- it being a law not to murder is for all to know.

However, celebrating the feasts have nothing to do with law. It is only for those Christians who want to follow what is pleasing to the Lord because we love Him. To celebrate our salvation with feasts does not determine our salvation as unforgiven law breakage determines our salvation.

Col. 1:10 That you might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good works, and increasing in the knowledge of God.

 

[CS1]

I made it quite clear that it was another independent group and not part of the existing church. The only similarity was that it also had a Pentecostal character. The incoming group was not part of the Pastor's church, and the intention was to plant their church in that town. The Pastor was informed out of courtesy. The incoming group was not required to inform him at all, nor did they have to come under his authority to plant a church in that town.

The problem was that he assumed that he had overall authority over all Pentecostals, and potential converts in that town and resented the idea of another group planting a church in "my town".

I just don't understand why you think that an independent group of believers planting their own church in a town should come under the authority of a pastor of an existing church in that town.

if they were as you said Independent why did they need to speak to a pastor of another church? They were not independent they were members of a church where they did not agree with the current pastor ( leadership) and decided to make another church. THey did not use the biblical protocols to deal with the Pastor. and became rebels

 

[PaulChristensen]

if they were as you said Independent why did they need to speak to a pastor of another church? They were not independent they were members of a church where they did not agree with the current pastor ( leadership) and decided to make another church. They did not use the biblical protocols to deal with the Pastor. and became rebels

Do you actually read my posts? The people of the new fellowship were never members of the Pastor's church. I really don't know where you got the idea from that the group were separating from his church. I said that the new group of people did not want to join his church because they didn't agree with the way he was running it.

They were a mixed group of new converts and those who were baptised with the Spirit and did not want to continue with their non-Charismatic churches. The Pentecostal denomination of the Pastor's church had a different theology and church government which the new group did not want to be a part of, and wanted to have their own fellowship. I will repeat, just in case you missed what I just said: They were not, nor were they ever members of that Pastor's church.

Also, the consultant (who incidentally is a friend of mine who has an international prophetic ministry) was asked to assist the group to plant their church and provide leadership and ministry until they became established.

The sole reason why my friend contacted the Pastor of the denominational Pentecostal church was because he was wanting to be courteous and respectful to a fellow Pentecostal pastor, and to assure him that the new church was not intending to be in competition with that denominational church.

 

[Evmur]

what I find hilarious is many will talk about how the church should be done and how the pastor should be but don't go to church LOL.

hearing the things they say I'm sure the churches and pastors are not missing them much. I heard people this about churches and pastors.

1. I don't come under the authority of any man but God = I am arrogant and prideful and know more than the pastor.
2. The pastor doesn't teach the word of God and has misquoted scripture at the pulpit= willing to tear down the Pastor because he hurt my feeling
3. the church doesn't love or show love= the pastor has spoken out against sexual sin and taught those who do them will go to hell.
4. the pastor would not let me start my ministry there and was not following the holy Spirit= I know better than the pastor what is the mission of the church more so than the board members and leadership
5. the leadership at that church is ungodly= They did not vote for me to be a board member or decon and I gave more and did more than any other.

YET these types don't go to church today LOL. Hypocrites, unruly, and owning discord amongst the brethren, From such stay away from. don't even listen to them. They are hateful, angry, and want nothing more than to hurt a church.

The church needs to wakey wakey it is dysfunctional, God has new wine that will not be put into old wineskins ... or it will tear and the wine spilled isn't that a graphic picture of what we are seeing?

The NT assemblies were not led by a pastor doing everything [including the plumbing]

But christians should not forsake the gathering together and that is the dilemma.

 

[CS1]

"I was having a conversation with the Lord about authority and discussed about a church pastor who tried to tell me to come under his authority, and how I gave the puffed up peacock the bum's rush. A verse of Scripture came to me:
"You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men" (1 Corinthians 7:23)"

Yes, I did read your post.

 

[Mem]

Perhaps, if we thought of the old and new in terms of the temple, rather than in terms of the tablets albeit contained within the most holy of the temple, then we would reach a better consensus of understanding...the Ark also contained, along with the tablets of stone (the authority of the law?) ,the rod of Aaron (which I believe represents the authority of the priesthood?), and a bowl of manna but I'm having a time equating what authority this might represent and whether if, indeed, representative authority (which have all been placed under the mercy seat) is a standard theme in the association of these artifacts....

 

[Blik]

Perhaps, if we thought of the old and new in terms of the temple, rather than in terms of the tablets albeit contained within the most holy of the temple, then we would reach a better consensus of understanding...the Ark also contained, along with the tablets of stone (the authority of the law?) ,the rod of Aaron (which I believe represents the authority of the priesthood?), and a bowl of manna but I'm having a time equating what authority this might represent and whether if, indeed, representative authority (which have all been placed under the mercy seat) is a standard theme in the association of these artifacts....

As you are pointing out, all that God taught Israel lives on and is fulfilled in Christ.

The temple fulfilled in Christ means we are the temple now, and what was in the ark explains 'God within us as you have so wonderfully pointed out. The manna in the wilderness was the food God gave therm to sustain them, as God gives us food through the Holy Spirit to sustain us.

 

[Mem]

As you are pointing out, all that God taught Israel lives on and is fulfilled in Christ.

The temple fulfilled in Christ means we are the temple now, and what was in the ark explains 'God within us as you have so wonderfully pointed out. The manna in the wilderness was the food God gave therm to sustain them, as God gives us food through the Holy Spirit to sustain us.

Relative to authority, I am thinking in terms that all these relics are placed under the mercy seat or, more effectively, under the 'authority' of the Blood of the Lamb. And so it seems to me to invoke the question, "What authority might the manna be representative of (that it should be placed under the blood of the lamb that is)?"...I'm sure it'll come to me eventually.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Relative to authority, I am thinking in terms that all these relics are placed under the mercy seat or, more effectively, under the 'authority' of the Blood of the Lamb. And so it seems to me to invoke the question, "What authority might the manna be representative of (that it should be placed under the blood of the lamb that is)?"...I'm sure it'll come to me eventually.

this verse always reminds me of the manna which God provided to the children of Israel:

2 Corinthians 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.


Nehemiah 9:19-21 Yet thou in thy manifold mercies forsookest them not in the wilderness: the pillar of the cloud departed not from them by day, to lead them in the way; neither the pillar of fire by night, to shew them light, and the way wherein they should go. Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst. Yea, forty years didst thou sustain them in the wilderness, so that they lacked nothing; their clothes waxed not old, and their feet swelled not.

 

[Mem]

Ty, ren (Idk why I feel that I can call you ren, but...)

this verse always reminds me of the manna which God provided to the children of Israel:

2 Corinthians 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.


Nehemiah 9:19-21 Yet thou in thy manifold mercies forsookest them not in the wilderness: the pillar of the cloud departed not from them by day, to lead them in the way; neither the pillar of fire by night, to shew them light, and the way wherein they should go. Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst. Yea, forty years didst thou sustain them in the wilderness, so that they lacked nothing; their clothes waxed not old, and their feet swelled not.

This passage brings to mind the 'kvetch'ing of the Israelites, how they complained rather than appreciated God's provision. And so what is being representatively covered, perhaps, is that specific sin and similarly Aaron's rod is reminiscent of the rebellion of Korach and also then the tablets represent the sin of the golden calf, which are all covered by the grace of the Lamb of God...

Taking this thought back to the association with each artifacts relevance to authority...
Aaron's rod/rebellion against the priesthood (envy),
two tablets/broken upon the sin of the golden calf (pride?), and
bowl of manna/ingratitude (lust)

This leads me to consider if there be some sort of authority, or power if you rather, in praise (the antithesis of kvetching)

No doubt, there is certainly blessing in it, I thought as
I then I found this...

Psalm 106
Berean Study Bible Par ▾
Give Thanks to the LORD, for He Is Good
1Hallelujah!a
Give thanks to the LORD, for He is good;
His loving devotion endures forever.
2Who can describe the mighty acts of the LORD
or fully proclaim His praise?
3Blessed are those who uphold justice,
who practice righteousness at all times.
4Remember me, O LORD, in Your favor to Your people;
visit me with Your salvation,
5that I may see the prosperity of Your chosen ones,
and rejoice in the gladness of Your nation,
and give glory with Your inheritance.
6We have sinned like our fathers;
we have done wrong and acted wickedly.
7Our fathers in Egypt did not grasp Your wonders
or remember Your abundant kindness;
but they rebelled by the sea,
there at the Red Sea.b
8Yet He saved them for the sake of His name,
to make His power known.
9He rebuked the Red Sea, and it dried up;
He led them through the depths as through a desert.
10He saved them from the hand that hated them;
He redeemed them from the hand of the enemy.
11The waters covered their foes;
not one of them remained.

12Then they believed His promises
and sang His praise.

13Yet they soon forgot His works
and failed to wait for His counsel.

14They craved intensely in the wilderness
and tested God in the desert.

15So He granted their request,
but sent a wasting disease upon them.

16In the camp they envied Moses,
as well as Aaron, the holy one of the LORD.

17The earth opened up and swallowed Dathan;
it covered the assembly of Abiram.

18Then fire blazed through their company;
flames consumed the wicked.

19At Horebc they made a calf
and worshiped a molten image.

20They exchanged their Gloryd
for the image of a grass-eating ox.

21They forgot God their Savior,
who did great things in Egypt
.....

I will continue to ponder the weight of that thought, and
Meanwhile, this is also helping me formulate another answer to the question I'd been considering of exactly what the antithesis of lust is