50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: {but not with all the silly embellishments}
[...] examples don't work for removing resurrected and raptured believers from earth.

[not that I agree with Abs's take on it...] I'm wanting to see if I *get* what you are trying to say, here ^ ...

... are you saying that it is your understanding that "rapture / harpazo / harpagēsometha / snatch / caught up / -away [G726]" (in the 1Th4:17 verse) does NOT mean we'll be "caught up TO [/ UNTO] THE MEETING OF THE LORD *in the air*," but rather, to some other location ON THE EARTH? (kinda like happened to Philip in Acts 8:39)?? Like, not exiting "from the earth" whatsoever, only like a "relocation [elsewhere] ON THE EARTH" kind of thing?

No, not at all. Abs used examples from the OT to apparently support a pretrib rapture, or more accurately, removal from immediate judgment of God on specific parts of earth.

My only point was that in NONE of those examples were people taken off the earth. So his exampes failed.

EDIT: NVM! I'm sure I've MIS-read your intentions... (was getting this mixed up with your suggestion that we only "go up" temporarily for a moment of time, and return to the earth pretty much in one continuous motion, "UP-then-down")

I believe 1 Thess 4 is clear enough. When Jesus returns again, He will bring with Him all the dead saints, awaiting their resurrection bodies (bodies of immortality) and gather up all the living saints, who will be changed, meaning they will get their bodies of immortality. All this occurs "in the clouds". And all 1 Thess 4 says after all this is "and we will be with the Lord forever".

How anyone comes up with going back to heaven beats me. No verse says that.

 

[randyk]

Also, are these synonymous; pre-trib>post-millennial and post-trib>pre-millennial? trying to keep all these pre's and post's straight :/

no. post and pre Trib are both pre Mill.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here are my sequence of events. And I'll try to be conscientious of my commas, brackets, and aside's in order to spare FreeGrace's frustration

Thanks so much! At least someone is paying attention!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I would suggest to you, brother, that the "day of the Lord" can indeed be viewed as a long period of time on earth, including the "Great Tribulation" period and the Millennial Reign of Christ. But it does not *have to be used* this way! And indeed, Paul is *not* using it this way.

In fact, in 2 Thess 2:1-3, Paul used it in reference to the beginning of that time period, which is WHEN Christ returns to earth.

And DWM hasn't proven otherwise.

I say that because Paul was specifically referring to the day in which *Christ returns for his Church." And so, it is a literal 24- hour day Paul is speaking of, in which Christ returns for his Church. He cannot, therefore, be speaking of a general "day" of long duration.

Exactly!

 

[FreeGrace2]

... that (earthly-located) "time-period" is what they were claiming / purporting "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE," per v.2.

[and to which idea Paul is BRINGING the corrective TO BEAR on that false idea (which involves the SEQUENCE issue, by his use of the word "*FIRST*--ONE THING must take place *FIRST*!)]

I was hoping you would answer my 2 questions:

1. what does "the coming of the Lord" mean in v.1?
2. what does "our being gathered to Him" mean in v.1?

Thanks so much if you would answer these questions.

 

[randyk]

In fact, in 2 Thess 2:1-3, Paul used it in reference to the beginning of that time period, which is WHEN Christ returns to earth.

And DWM hasn't proven otherwise.

Exactly!

The obfuscation of this passage by DWM is unbelievable, and some just keep cheerleading him on! I consider DW a pretty nice guy, and undoubtedly smart, as well. However, he has a language problem, and covers up his beliefs in an avalanche of parentheses, brackets, italicized words, bold letters, commas, etc. etc. You get the gist?

And so, we are being misdirected by DW with an obfuscation of words. And without knowing what he is saying precisely we are left with his bold assertions. It even seems he's confusing the revelation of the Antichrist with the coming of Christ? He certainly confuses "the apostasy" with "the departure of the Church." And he confuses the 24 hour day in which Christ returns for his Church with a long period of time, including the "Great Tribulation" and the Millennium. He in fact confuses the coming of Christ for the Church with the beginning of the "Tribulation" period, defending it by some irrelevant reference to a present indicative grammatical form of "coming."

OMG, things could be made so much more simple! However, I do take DW seriously, and am hoping to get him to see that "the simplest understanding," in this case, "is probably the proper understanding."

 

[cv5]

But you have neither disproved my view, nor, strangely, validated your own.

Regarding the gap - I guess it can be anything you want it to be- it's a gap, air, blank space on a page, after all.

So what bric-a-brac are you putting in your 7 year thing-on-the-end tribulation thingy?

Maybe you don't quite understand. I don't need your assistance. I don't need your insights. I don't need your tutelage. I don't need your advice. I already KNOW what I'm talking about and believe me it's a good place to be. But what I am telling YOU is if you are wise you going to pay very careful attention to what TDW and like-minded individuals are saying. They are undoubtedly espousing accurate and correct exegesis. I believe what they believe in I know that I'm right also.

Sometimes the right thing to do is simply just sit at the feet of people who are actually equipped to teach sound doctrine.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I would suggest to you, brother, that the "day of the Lord" can indeed be viewed as a long period of time on earth, including the "Great Tribulation" period and the Millennial Reign of Christ. But it does not *have to be used* this way! And indeed, Paul is *not* using it this way.

The question is... THE FALSE CONVEYORS were *purporting* "THAT the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT INDICATIVE is how *they* (THE FALSE CONVEYORS) put it! Which "PERFECT INDICATIVE" (how *they* worded it) actually *means*: "ACTION COMPLETED at a SPECIFIC POINT of TIME in PAST (●) with results CONTINUING into the PRESENT (▬►). In certain contexts the results are PERMANENT."




So...(in v.2--what we are discussing) *THEY / the FALSE CONVEYORS* meant: that it is ALREADY HERE / IS PRESENT (not just "IS AT HAND / SOON to occur"), referring to "the day of the Lord" which is "an earthly-located *time-period* of lengthy duration with MUCH transpiring WITHIN it

(i.e. "an earthly-located PERIOD-OF-TIME-[not-merely-24-hrs] of *JUDGMENTs* unfolding followed by and ALSO INCLUDING an earthly-located PERIOD-OF-TIME-[also-not-merely-24-hrs] of *BLESSINGs* unfolding"--ALL OF THAT *They / the false conveyors* were purporting it IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE, meaning it had ARRIVED / CAME INTO EXISTENCE at some point in the PAST--to which Paul is BRINGING TO BEAR the "corrective" (involving a SEQUENCE issue indicated by the word "FIRST," applying to ONE THING in particular--ONE THING *FIRST* (not TWO things *FIRST*) before "the DOTL" can "BE PRESENT" to unfold upon the earth over the course of SOME TIME)]

 

[Runningman]

no. post and pre Trib are both pre Mill.

Post-tribs are usually either historic pre-millennialist or amillenialist. Pre-tribs are usually dispensational pre-mill. The dispensational interpretation of the Bible is how they usually think there is a pre-trib rapture since it's very rare a dispensationalist will be capable of seeing the post-trib in the Bible, though it isn't unheard of.

 

[cv5]

The obfuscation of this passage by DWM is unbelievable, and some just keep cheerleading him on! I consider DW a pretty nice guy, and undoubtedly smart, as well. However, he has a language problem, and covers up his beliefs in an avalanche of parentheses, brackets, italicized words, bold letters, commas, etc. etc. You get the gist?

And so, we are being misdirected by DW with an obfuscation of words. And without knowing what he is saying precisely we are left with his bold assertions. It even seems he's confusing the revelation of the Antichrist with the coming of Christ? He certainly confuses "the apostasy" with "the departure of the Church." And he confuses the 24 hour day in which Christ returns for his Church with a long period of time, including the "Great Tribulation" and the Millennium. He in fact confuses the coming of Christ for the Church with the beginning of the "Tribulation" period, defending it by some irrelevant reference to a present indicative grammatical form of "coming."

OMG, things could be made so much more simple! However, I do take DW seriously, and am hoping to get him to see that "the simplest understanding," in this case, "is probably the proper understanding."

I said it before and I'll say it again: TDW is cleaning your clock and you don't even know it....

 

[Runningman]

Post-tribs are usually either historic pre-millennialist or amillenialist. Pre-tribs are usually dispensational pre-mill. The dispensational interpretation of the Bible is how they usually think there is a pre-trib rapture since it's very rare a dispensationalist will be capable of seeing the post-trib in the Bible, though it isn't unheard of.

More rare than post/pre-trib is the allusive mid-tribber, but they exist. A few pages back I think one popped in for a bit. They are usually historic pre-mill or amill, and rarely dispensationalists.

Rarest of all, as far as I seen here, are the full/partial preterists.

 

[VCO]

Post-tribs are usually either historic pre-millennialist or amillenialist. Pre-tribs are usually dispensational pre-mill. The dispensational interpretation of the Bible is how they usually think there is a pre-trib rapture since it's very rare a dispensationalist will be capable of seeing the post-trib in the Bible, though it isn't unheard of.

And Pre-Tribers believe in KEEPING READY All the TIME, PERIOD.

That means we will BE READY, no matter when the Rapture is, whether it be PRE-TRIB, MID-TRIB, or POST-TRIB.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

defending it by some irrelevant reference to a present indicative grammatical form of "coming."

I've never stated either one of these ^ , in my argument.




[you have a habit of "reading INTO" others' words, don't you? ...coz THOSE ^ were NOT what *I* had put, AT ALL!]


Are you certain you aren't merely skimming over (and past) most of what it is my actual arguments ARE??

(coz those [you point out here ^] were not ANYWHERE IN *my* arguments, and not at all the points *I* am making. Perhaps, "read again, more carefully"?? I'm sure not going to type everything all over again just so you can see the ACTUAL POINT / POINTS I put...)

 

[Runningman]

And Pre-Tribers believe in KEEPING READY All the TIME, PERIOD.

That means we will BE READY, no matter when the Rapture is, whether it be PRE-TRIB, MID-TRIB, or POST-TRIB.

This applies to everyone regardless because ultimately no one knows the day or the hour the Master will return:

Mark 13:32-37
32But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. 34For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. 35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 37And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

 

[VCO]

[not that I agree with Abs's take on it...] I'm wanting to see if I *get* what you are trying to say, here ^ ...

... are you saying that it is your understanding that "rapture / harpazo / harpagēsometha / snatch / caught up / -away [G726]" (in the 1Th4:17 verse) does NOT mean we'll be "caught up TO [/ UNTO] THE MEETING OF THE LORD *in the air*," but rather, to some other location ON THE EARTH? (kinda like happened to Philip in Acts 8:39)?? Like, not exiting "from the earth" whatsoever, only like a "relocation [elsewhere] ON THE EARTH" kind of thing?

_____

EDIT: NVM! I'm sure I've MIS-read your intentions... (was getting this mixed up with your suggestion that we only "go up" temporarily for a moment of time, and return to the earth pretty much in one continuous motion, "UP-then-down")

MY APOLOGIES for misunderstanding this post of yours! NIX THIS POST of mine! LOL

Are you joking, just to keep the Argument Going?

Jesus said to the thief on the Cross:
Luke 23:43 (NASB)
43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Where is Paradise?

2 Corinthians 12:2-5 (ESV)
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—
4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.
5 On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses— (Paul is talking about his experience.)

The bible only teaches their are THREE Heavens.
1st Heaven = the birds soared in the heavens.
2nd Heaven = the stars of heaven, the Universe.
3rd Heaven = the eternal dwelling place of GOD Almighty.

 

[VCO]

This applies to everyone regardless because ultimately no one knows the day or the hour the Master will return:

Mark 13:32-37
32But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. 34For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. 35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 37And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Never knew you believed in KEEPING READY.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The obfuscation of this passage by DWM is unbelievable, and some just keep cheerleading him on! I consider DW a pretty nice guy, and undoubtedly smart, as well.

I've not met him.

However, he has a language problem, and covers up his beliefs in an avalanche of parentheses, brackets, italicized words, bold letters, commas, etc. etc. You get the gist?

Absolutely. Someone, maybe it was you, who called all that "avalanche" embellishments. It sure saves time by having to name all the different ways he emphasizes things. It really does make for difficult and distracting reading.

And so, we are being misdirected by DW with an obfuscation of words. And without knowing what he is saying precisely we are left with his bold assertions. It even seems he's confusing the revelation of the Antichrist with the coming of Christ? He certainly confuses "the apostasy" with "the departure of the Church." And he confuses the 24 hour day in which Christ returns for his Church with a long period of time, including the "Great Tribulation" and the Millennium. He in fact confuses the coming of Christ for the Church with the beginning of the "Tribulation" period, defending it by some irrelevant reference to a present indicative grammatical form of "coming."

I've narrowed it all down to 2 questions that I am hoping to answers to. Just what do the phrases in 2 Thess 2:1 refer to?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If I was posting to one of your posts, most likely I was unable to accurately figure out your post. [...]
The DotL begins when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent, and continues into eternity.

[TDW: "You literally "FLIP-FLOP" on this point whenever the opposite point helps the current point you are attempting to convey, at any given post..."]

Nonsense.

I actually happened to come across ONE of the posts where you DO say the "opposite" of what you present here, in the following post by you:


FreeGrace2's Post #1157 pg 58 in this thread (latter half of April 2021) -

FrGr2 said: "Sure. birth pains begin, which signals a birth is coming. Duh. The FIRST group of God's judgment are the seals, followed by the trumpets , and then the bowl judgments. All of the Trib is the DOTL."

[emphasis mine, so that no one can inadvertently *miss* it ]

- https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4539190




[and that's just two small examples OF A NUMBER OF other posts, where this "flip-flop / switching-back-and-forth" on the definition of "the DOTL" has been done by FrGr2... I could only venture a guess as to "why" he does this... ]

 

[FreeGrace2]

I already KNOW what I'm talking about and believe me it's a good place to be.

How can you "know" what you are talking about when there are NO verses that describe Jesus taking resurrected and raptured saints to heaven after giving them all bodies of immortality?

But what I am telling YOU is if you are wise you going to pay very careful attention to what TDW and like-minded individuals are saying. They are undoubtedly espousing accurate and correct exegesis. I believe what they believe in I know that I'm right also.

Speaking of which, can you answer my 2 questions regarding 2 Thess 2:1?

1. what does "the coming of the Lord" mean in v.1?
2. what does "our being gathered to Him" mean in v.1?

Thanks so much if you would answer these questions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Post-tribs are usually either historic pre-millennialist or amillenialist. Pre-tribs are usually dispensational pre-mill. The dispensational interpretation of the Bible is how they usually think there is a pre-trib rapture since it's very rare a dispensationalist will be capable of seeing the post-trib in the Bible, though it isn't unheard of.

I are one.