50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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I actually happened to come across ONE of the posts where you DO say the "opposite" of what you present here, in the following post by you:
FreeGrace2's Post #1157 pg 58 in this thread (latter half of April 2021) -
[emphasis mine, so that no one can inadvertently *miss* it
]
- https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4539190
FreeGrace2's Post #1157 pg 58 in this thread (latter half of April 2021) -
[emphasis mine, so that no one can inadvertently *miss* it
]- https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4539190
In any case, I reject what was said in that post.
2 Thess 2:1-3 very clearly shows that the whole issue is about the actual DAY that the Lord comes back to earth.
I've asked you 2 questions. It seems you are not about to answer them.
Here they are again.
1. what does "the coming of the Lord" mean in v.1?
2. what does "our being gathered to Him" mean in v.1?
Thanks so much if you would answer these questions.
Note: by not answering these easy questions, will reveal a deeper and darker motivation on your part. Because if you don't can't answer the questions, why are you even discussing the text, and challenging the views of others?
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I answered "these" way back on May 17 (and also even back earlier than that), but I'll paste that post here again, but know that I have answered this / these that you've posed, and posed repeatedly, and I answered them way more than once:
[again]
In Post #2829 (different thread), on page 142... back on May 17
... where I touch on the point I've also made in past posts, on the *distinction* between "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" at "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event that v.1 speaks of [involving ONLY US, and NO ONE ELSE!], and "His MANIFESTATION of His presence [/parousia]" that v.8b speaks of, when "EVERY EYE shall see Him"... [involving MORE PPL THAN JUST *US*] :
Post #2829 - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4559322
.
[again]
In Post #2829 (different thread), on page 142... back on May 17
... where I touch on the point I've also made in past posts, on the *distinction* between "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" at "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event that v.1 speaks of [involving ONLY US, and NO ONE ELSE!], and "His MANIFESTATION of His presence [/parousia]" that v.8b speaks of, when "EVERY EYE shall see Him"... [involving MORE PPL THAN JUST *US*] :
Post #2829 - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4559322
.
Did you or did you not make an argument regarding a present indicative form of "coming?'
Did you or did you not make an argument that some thing is not only coming but remaining? We could argue what that thing is that is coming and remaining, whether the Day of the Lord, the Coming of Christ for his Church, or the revelation of Antichrist.
The fact is, your position is so convoluted that it is difficult to know what you are saying! Quite frankly, one cannot get Pretribulationism out of 2 Thessalonians--not even close. The whole letter seems dedicated to exposing a group that is claiming a premature coming of Christ, a premature Rapture. And Paul makes a big point out of proving Jesus could *not* have come back because he will *only* come after Antichrist is revealed and destroyed!
So why do you even keep stating that something is "present," instead of "coming?" I don't know why you make a big deal out of a present indicative form of the word for "coming?"
Instead of clarifying your terms, what you do is repeat your arguments. Obviously, you get more mileage out of repeating your positions than resolving the confusion.
Did you or did you not make an argument that some thing is not only coming but remaining? We could argue what that thing is that is coming and remaining, whether the Day of the Lord, the Coming of Christ for his Church, or the revelation of Antichrist.
The fact is, your position is so convoluted that it is difficult to know what you are saying! Quite frankly, one cannot get Pretribulationism out of 2 Thessalonians--not even close. The whole letter seems dedicated to exposing a group that is claiming a premature coming of Christ, a premature Rapture. And Paul makes a big point out of proving Jesus could *not* have come back because he will *only* come after Antichrist is revealed and destroyed!
So why do you even keep stating that something is "present," instead of "coming?" I don't know why you make a big deal out of a present indicative form of the word for "coming?"
Instead of clarifying your terms, what you do is repeat your arguments. Obviously, you get more mileage out of repeating your positions than resolving the confusion.
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Here's one of the other thoughts I had wanted to grab from an old post, and add to what I'd previously responded regarding your post here...
See my Post #1366 (along these same lines... re: the point of "armies [PLURAL]"):
[quoting old post, in part]
Post #1366 (page 59) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4540629
"[...] my "emphasis"... and my explanation: when "OUR Lord Jesus Christ / OUR Lord Jesus" phrase is used (using the word "OUR"), it is speaking of "our Rapture" (i.e. the events surrounding "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" [IN THE AIR] involving NO ONE ELSE; just like[/U] Numbers 10:4's "when ONE [trumpet] sounds" not every person all over creation is to "gather UNTO MOSES"--only the ones named in that verse, were to! [see also the "24 names" who are hooked up in chpt 1 of that Book... also speaking of the "heads - H7218 - ros/rosh/roshe/rase ]" like 10:4 is using--See CONTEXT of chpt 1, in vv.1-4 ('shall number them by their armies')--and 10:4 also uses the word "leaders - H5387 - nasiy' / han-nə-śî-’îm - 'chief, prince, one lifted up'," along with the other word, "heads"])."
[end quoting old post]
[also in Post #1881 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4545328 ]
See my Post #1366 (along these same lines... re: the point of "armies [PLURAL]"):
[quoting old post, in part]
Post #1366 (page 59) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4540629
"[...] my "emphasis"... and my explanation: when "OUR Lord Jesus Christ / OUR Lord Jesus" phrase is used (using the word "OUR"), it is speaking of "our Rapture" (i.e. the events surrounding "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" [IN THE AIR] involving NO ONE ELSE; just like[/U] Numbers 10:4's "when ONE [trumpet] sounds" not every person all over creation is to "gather UNTO MOSES"--only the ones named in that verse, were to! [see also the "24 names" who are hooked up in chpt 1 of that Book... also speaking of the "heads - H7218 - ros/rosh/roshe/rase ]" like 10:4 is using--See CONTEXT of chpt 1, in vv.1-4 ('shall number them by their armies')--and 10:4 also uses the word "leaders - H5387 - nasiy' / han-nə-śî-’îm - 'chief, prince, one lifted up'," along with the other word, "heads"])."
[end quoting old post]
[also in Post #1881 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4545328 ]
No.
I was making a point about the "PERFECT [tense] INDICATIVE" (not "present tense") of the word "G1764 - enestēken / enistémi" that the false conveyors had used (according to v.2 - https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm ), which is NOT the word "COMING"
(I made no such point on such a word... that word is not in v.2, which is the verse *I* was discussing--i.e. the Subject pertaining "what the false conveyors were purporting" v.2)
I was making a point about the "PERFECT [tense] INDICATIVE" (not "present tense") of the word "G1764 - enestēken / enistémi" that the false conveyors had used (according to v.2 - https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm ), which is NOT the word "COMING"
(I made no such point on such a word... that word is not in v.2, which is the verse *I* was discussing--i.e. the Subject pertaining "what the false conveyors were purporting" v.2)
My APOLOGIES... I messed up the formatting on my first attempt, so this is a RE-DO:
[adding to a previous response I made toward your point of the "armies [PLURAL]" here, in Rev19 (where the PLURAL is never used of the "angels" alone)]
Post #1366 (page 59) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4540629
"[...] my "emphasis"... and my explanation: when "OUR Lord Jesus Christ / OUR Lord Jesus" phrase is used (using the word "OUR"), it is speaking of "our Rapture" (i.e. the events surrounding "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" [IN THE AIR] involving NO ONE ELSE; just like Numbers 10:4's "when ONE [trumpet] sounds" not every person all over creation is to "gather UNTO MOSES"--only the ones named in that verse, were to! [see also the "24 names" who are hooked up in chpt 1 of that Book... also speaking of the "heads - H7218 - ros/rosh/roshe/rase ]" like 10:4 is using--See CONTEXT of chpt 1, in vv.1-4 ('shall number them by their armies')--and 10:4 also uses the word "leaders - H5387 - nasiy' / han-nə-śî-’îm - 'chief, prince, one lifted up'," along with the other word, "heads"])."
[note: NOT endorsing a "partial-rapture theory" here, just to be CLEAR ]
[also in Post #1881 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4545328 ]
[adding to a previous response I made toward your point of the "armies [PLURAL]" here, in Rev19
(where the PLURAL is never used of the "angels" alone)]Post #1366 (page 59) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4540629
"[...] my "emphasis"... and my explanation: when "OUR Lord Jesus Christ / OUR Lord Jesus" phrase is used (using the word "OUR"), it is speaking of "our Rapture" (i.e. the events surrounding "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" [IN THE AIR] involving NO ONE ELSE; just like Numbers 10:4's "when ONE [trumpet] sounds" not every person all over creation is to "gather UNTO MOSES"--only the ones named in that verse, were to! [see also the "24 names" who are hooked up in chpt 1 of that Book... also speaking of the "heads - H7218 - ros/rosh/roshe/rase ]" like 10:4 is using--See CONTEXT of chpt 1, in vv.1-4 ('shall number them by their armies')--and 10:4 also uses the word "leaders - H5387 - nasiy' / han-nə-śî-’îm - 'chief, prince, one lifted up'," along with the other word, "heads"])."
[note: NOT endorsing a "partial-rapture theory" here, just to be CLEAR
][also in Post #1881 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4545328 ]
FreeGrace2 said:
Here they are again.
1. what does "the coming of the Lord" mean in v.1?
2. what does "our being gathered to Him" mean in v.1?
Thanks so much if you would answer these questions.
Note: by not answering these easy questions, will reveal a deeper and darker motivation on your part. Because if you don't can't answer the questions, why are you even discussing the text, and challenging the views of others?
OK, before we proceed, don't you see the problem here? You just said you answered my question in a DIFFERENT THREAD. Why do you assume I'm familiar with your UNNAMED thread and whatever you answered there??
None of this word embellished salad answers my question.
I was hoping you would just clearly state what "the coming of the Lord" means or refers to, and what "our being gathered to Him" means or refers to.
This is what was in that post:
I've already stated it pages ago, but I'll write it yet again:
"... the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ, even OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"... IS ONE EVENT: "OUR Rapture" TO "the meeting OF THE LORD*IN THE AIR*"... to which He will have done the "SHALL DESCEND" thing, and WE participate in the "CAUGHT UP [/SNATCH]" thing (and ONLY*us* [/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY]... NO ONE ELSE)"
OK, it seems all you are capable of is churning out highly embellished word salads.
I cannot follow your sentences, paragraphs or thoughts. And it seems you impervious to suggestions about knocking off all those silly embellishments. All they do is distract.
Maybe that's been your motivation all along. You don't actually have an answer, so you cover it up with embellished word salads.
OK. I won't ask again. I promise. But at least now I can be relatively assured that you really don't have answers to my 2 questions.
And that's ok.
Here they are again.
1. what does "the coming of the Lord" mean in v.1?
2. what does "our being gathered to Him" mean in v.1?
Thanks so much if you would answer these questions.
Note: by not answering these easy questions, will reveal a deeper and darker motivation on your part. Because if you don't can't answer the questions, why are you even discussing the text, and challenging the views of others?
OK, before we proceed, don't you see the problem here? You just said you answered my question in a DIFFERENT THREAD. Why do you assume I'm familiar with your UNNAMED thread and whatever you answered there??
None of this word embellished salad answers my question.
I was hoping you would just clearly state what "the coming of the Lord" means or refers to, and what "our being gathered to Him" means or refers to.
This is what was in that post:
I've already stated it pages ago, but I'll write it yet again:
"... the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ, even OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"... IS ONE EVENT: "OUR Rapture" TO "the meeting OF THE LORD*IN THE AIR*"... to which He will have done the "SHALL DESCEND" thing, and WE participate in the "CAUGHT UP [/SNATCH]" thing (and ONLY*us* [/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY]... NO ONE ELSE)"
OK, it seems all you are capable of is churning out highly embellished word salads.
I cannot follow your sentences, paragraphs or thoughts. And it seems you impervious to suggestions about knocking off all those silly embellishments. All they do is distract.
Maybe that's been your motivation all along. You don't actually have an answer, so you cover it up with embellished word salads.
OK. I won't ask again. I promise. But at least now I can be relatively assured that you really don't have answers to my 2 questions.
And that's ok.
^ @FreeGrace2 , I had previously stated it to you like this (and you didn't like it):
Verse 1 is speaking SOLELY and ONLY of our Rapture and our Rapture point-in-time,
...when Jesus will descend TO "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" where WE (and WE ALONE) will be "caught UP / -AWAY" to that location (NO ONE ELSE will be in His "presence" THERE)
"the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ, and / even OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"...
That is "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event (at one singular point-in-time).
This is the Subject that PAUL is BRINGING TO BEAR (bringing to the fore) on the "problem" disclosed in v.2
Verse 1 is speaking SOLELY and ONLY of our Rapture and our Rapture point-in-time,
...when Jesus will descend TO "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" where WE (and WE ALONE) will be "caught UP / -AWAY" to that location (NO ONE ELSE will be in His "presence" THERE)
"the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ, and / even OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"...
That is "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event (at one singular point-in-time).
This is the Subject that PAUL is BRINGING TO BEAR (bringing to the fore) on the "problem" disclosed in v.2
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We agree, if I can manage through the confused array of descriptions, that the "false conveyors" were claiming that the Day of the Lord had already come. You admit here that Paul was referring, in vs. 1, to Christ's Coming and the Rapture of the Church:
"... the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ, even OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"... IS ONE EVENT: "OUR Rapture" TO "the meeting OF THE LORD *IN THE AIR*"... to which He will have done the "SHALL DESCEND" thing, and WE participate in the "CAUGHT UP [/SNATCH]" thing (and ONLY *us* [/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY]... NO ONE ELSE)"
Paul said that some Christians had been claiming that this Rapture event had already happened. And Paul responded by saying that that was impossible, since Antichrist had not yet been revealed. Christ can only come back and Rapture the Church *after* Antichrist was revealed. Christ could only come back and Rapture his Church *at* the time when he comes to destroy the Antichrist.
Nothing could be clearer. 1st Antichrist is revealed, and then he is destroyed at the coming of Christ. Christ cannot have any premature coming and gathering of the Church until after Antichrist comes, reigns, and finally is destroyed. And so, Paul proved these "false messengers" wrong, because Christ could *not* have come back yet. They were presenting a "false Christ."
We agree that these "false conveyors" taught that the Day of Christ had already come. But here is what I think your entire problem is. You import the idea that the "Day of the Lord" is an extended period of time, including the Reign of Antichrist and the Millennial Reign of Christ. None of this exists at all in this particular passage!
So when you do this, and confuse the explicit meaning of the "Day of the Lord," then you change the sense of Christ's Coming on a single 24 hour literal day to refer to something foreign, an extended period of time with many elements.
Then you claim that Paul is simply trying to plug the "Rapture" into the right point in this itinerary rather than argue as he does, that the Rapture *cannot* precede the end of the age and the destruction of Antichrist. You begin with an imported sense of the "Day of the Lord," which cannot be what Paul means in vs 1.
"... the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ, even OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"... IS ONE EVENT: "OUR Rapture" TO "the meeting OF THE LORD *IN THE AIR*"... to which He will have done the "SHALL DESCEND" thing, and WE participate in the "CAUGHT UP [/SNATCH]" thing (and ONLY *us* [/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY]... NO ONE ELSE)"
Paul said that some Christians had been claiming that this Rapture event had already happened. And Paul responded by saying that that was impossible, since Antichrist had not yet been revealed. Christ can only come back and Rapture the Church *after* Antichrist was revealed. Christ could only come back and Rapture his Church *at* the time when he comes to destroy the Antichrist.
Nothing could be clearer. 1st Antichrist is revealed, and then he is destroyed at the coming of Christ. Christ cannot have any premature coming and gathering of the Church until after Antichrist comes, reigns, and finally is destroyed. And so, Paul proved these "false messengers" wrong, because Christ could *not* have come back yet. They were presenting a "false Christ."
We agree that these "false conveyors" taught that the Day of Christ had already come. But here is what I think your entire problem is. You import the idea that the "Day of the Lord" is an extended period of time, including the Reign of Antichrist and the Millennial Reign of Christ. None of this exists at all in this particular passage!
So when you do this, and confuse the explicit meaning of the "Day of the Lord," then you change the sense of Christ's Coming on a single 24 hour literal day to refer to something foreign, an extended period of time with many elements.
Then you claim that Paul is simply trying to plug the "Rapture" into the right point in this itinerary rather than argue as he does, that the Rapture *cannot* precede the end of the age and the destruction of Antichrist. You begin with an imported sense of the "Day of the Lord," which cannot be what Paul means in vs 1.
[Pasting what I'd put at that Post]
^ I've already stated it pages ago, but I'll write it yet again:
"... the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ, even OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"... IS ONE EVENT: "OUR Rapture" TO "the meeting OF THE LORD *IN THE AIR*"... to which He will have done the "SHALL DESCEND" thing, and WE participate in the "CAUGHT UP [/SNATCH]" thing (and ONLY *us* [/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY]... NO ONE ELSE)
[verse 1 is speaking ONLY of our Rapture event point in time; v.8b is NOT speaking of that]
[end quoting old post]
^ I've already stated it pages ago, but I'll write it yet again:
"... the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ, even OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"... IS ONE EVENT: "OUR Rapture" TO "the meeting OF THE LORD *IN THE AIR*"... to which He will have done the "SHALL DESCEND" thing, and WE participate in the "CAUGHT UP [/SNATCH]" thing (and ONLY *us* [/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY]... NO ONE ELSE)
[verse 1 is speaking ONLY of our Rapture event point in time; v.8b is NOT speaking of that]
[end quoting old post]
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Would that be PRE-12 Tribers? or, PRE-TOJT {Time of Jacob's 12-Tribes}-ers?
Just a couple of questions/problems for our Precious postie friends:
Does the Timing Of our Departure To Heaven really matter Very Much?
or "just BE READY" for Whenever, no matter what?:
I personally believe {notwithstanding 2 Thessalonians "being BEATEN-TO-DEATH!"} that The Timing of our Departure Is Very Important, Because:
(1) Which is Better?:
"men" instructing watchmen to look for antichrist, And "preparing" by
Selfishly Hoarding Up seven years of food for famine, to "endure to the
end of Great Tribulation!," Thus, "living BY SIGHT [the law]!"? Or:
Obeying God, Under HIS Amazing GRACE, "walking By FAITH, not by sight..."
Looking, Watching, And Waiting {Review Post #2,936 ...} For
...While loving our neighbor, And Selflessly working to use God's
{ Provided } money to "GIVE to them in need," while performing All
"good works" For God, in Order To Be:
►►► "Prepared" For Judgment In PRE-TOJT Departure TO Heaven! ◄◄◄
(1 Corinthians 3 : 8-15! cp 1 Corinthians 4 : 12; Ephesians 4 : 28;
1 Thessalonians 4 : 11-12; Philippians 4 : 19; 2 Corinthians 9 : 8;
Romans 12 : 20!) Amen?
(2) For those who Still Insist on “living BY SIGHT” to SEE anti-christ First,
and "enter" Into Great Tribulation, "under his {Satan's} GOVERNMENTAL
reign," Then do they not have The Following Scriptural "Dilemma"?
Please Prayerfully/Carefully Consider This - From God And HIS Word!:
Today, ALL members of The Body Of CHRIST Are Instructed, By God, To
"be subject to governmental authorities, And pray For them!"
(Romans_13 : 1-7; Titus_3 : 1; 1 Timothy_2 : 1-4).
How does that then "work out" (Disobedience?), for the Body Of CHRIST
"members," who WILL GO Into the Great Tribulation, as "the government
Will Be Under The Control" Of Satan and the Beast! (Revelation_13 : 4)?
Since posties “WILL be subject,” guess THEY had better “take his MARK,” Eh?
"Prove ALL things; hold fast That Which Is Good!" (1 Thessalonians_5 : 21 KJB!)
Be Blessed!
Just a couple of questions/problems for our Precious postie friends:
Does the Timing Of our Departure To Heaven really matter Very Much?
or "just BE READY" for Whenever, no matter what?:
I personally believe {notwithstanding 2 Thessalonians "being BEATEN-TO-DEATH!"} that The Timing of our Departure Is Very Important, Because:
(1) Which is Better?:
"men" instructing watchmen to look for antichrist, And "preparing" by
Selfishly Hoarding Up seven years of food for famine, to "endure to the
end of Great Tribulation!," Thus, "living BY SIGHT [the law]!"? Or:
Obeying God, Under HIS Amazing GRACE, "walking By FAITH, not by sight..."
Looking, Watching, And Waiting {Review Post #2,936 ...} For
[ our "Blessed HOPE!" ] The LORD JESUS CHRIST!...
...While loving our neighbor, And Selflessly working to use God's
{ Provided } money to "GIVE to them in need," while performing All
"good works" For God, in Order To Be:
►►► "Prepared" For Judgment In PRE-TOJT Departure TO Heaven! ◄◄◄
(1 Corinthians 3 : 8-15! cp 1 Corinthians 4 : 12; Ephesians 4 : 28;
1 Thessalonians 4 : 11-12; Philippians 4 : 19; 2 Corinthians 9 : 8;
Romans 12 : 20!) Amen?
(2) For those who Still Insist on “living BY SIGHT” to SEE anti-christ First,
and "enter" Into Great Tribulation, "under his {Satan's} GOVERNMENTAL
reign," Then do they not have The Following Scriptural "Dilemma"?
Please Prayerfully/Carefully Consider This - From God And HIS Word!:
Today, ALL members of The Body Of CHRIST Are Instructed, By God, To
"be subject to governmental authorities, And pray For them!"
(Romans_13 : 1-7; Titus_3 : 1; 1 Timothy_2 : 1-4).
How does that then "work out" (Disobedience?), for the Body Of CHRIST
"members," who WILL GO Into the Great Tribulation, as "the government
Will Be Under The Control" Of Satan and the Beast! (Revelation_13 : 4)?
Since posties “WILL be subject,” guess THEY had better “take his MARK,” Eh?
"Prove ALL things; hold fast That Which Is Good!" (1 Thessalonians_5 : 21 KJB!)
Be Blessed!
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I disagree.
What the false conveyors were purporting (instead ^ ) was: "that the DAY OF THE LORD had already come" ... which is a distinct thing from "the day of Christ"...
... "the day OF THE LORD" is entirely earthly-located, and commences with "JUDGMENTs" unfolding upon the earth over the course of SOME TIME (before the "BLESSINGs" aspect OF IT then also unfolds upon the earth also--ALL "earthly-located"... nowhere else...).
That's not what "the day of Christ" is, see... but is entirely *distinct* from it. (And I *disagree* [with the idea] that the false conveyors were saying such a thing as this , "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE"--tho they run concurrently, they take place in entirely distinct LOCATIONS)
What the false conveyors were purporting (instead ^ ) was: "that the DAY OF THE LORD had already come" ... which is a distinct thing from "the day of Christ"...
... "the day OF THE LORD" is entirely earthly-located, and commences with "JUDGMENTs" unfolding upon the earth over the course of SOME TIME (before the "BLESSINGs" aspect OF IT then also unfolds upon the earth also--ALL "earthly-located"... nowhere else...).
That's not what "the day of Christ" is, see... but is entirely *distinct* from it. (And I *disagree* [with the idea] that the false conveyors were saying such a thing as this , "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE"--tho they run concurrently, they take place in entirely distinct LOCATIONS)
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^ EDIT for CLARITY (instead of copy&paste your words as I did @randyk ... OOPS! SRY!)
____________
And adding this again:
[LISTING from BibleHub--23 Versions having it as "day of the Lord" i.e. the EARTHLY time-period (not "day of Christ"--when WE will be UP THERE *with HIM*)]
New International Version
not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us--whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter--asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
New Living Translation
Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.
English Standard Version
not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Berean Study Bible
not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come.
New American Standard Bible
that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
NASB 1995
that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
NASB 1977
that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Amplified Bible
not to be quickly unsettled or alarmed either by a [so-called prophetic revelation of a] spirit or a message or a letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come.
Christian Standard Bible
not to be easily upset or troubled, either by a prophecy or by a message or by a letter supposedly from us, alleging that the day of the Lord has come.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come.
Good News Translation
not to be so easily confused in your thinking or upset by the claim that the Day of the Lord has come. Perhaps it is thought that we said this while prophesying or preaching, or that we wrote it in a letter.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Don't get upset right away or alarmed when someone claims that we said through some spirit, conversation, or letter that the day of the Lord has already come.
International Standard Version
not to be so quickly upset or alarmed when someone claims that we said, either by some spirit, conversation, or letter that the Day of the Lord has already come.
NET Bible
not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.
New Heart English Bible
not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of the Lord had come.
Darby Bible Translation
that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as [if it were] by us, as that the day of the Lord is present.
English Revised Version
to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is now present;
Literal Standard Version
that you are not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the Day of the LORD has arrived;
Berean Literal Bible
for you not quickly to be shaken in mind, nor to be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as if by us, as that day of the Lord is present.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
That you would not be soon shaken in your minds, neither be troubled, either from word, nor from a spirit, neither from an epistle that is as if from us, namely, that, “Behold, The Day of our Lord has arrived.”
Godbey New Testament
that you be not suddenly shaken from your mind, nor disturbed, whether by a spirit, or through word, or a letter as by us, as that the day of the Lord has come.
Weymouth New Testament
not readily to become unsettled in mind or troubled--either by any pretended spiritual revelation or by any message or letter claiming to have been sent by us--through fancying that the day of the Lord is now here.
Worrell New Testament
that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord has set in.
____________
And adding this again:
[LISTING from BibleHub--23 Versions having it as "day of the Lord" i.e. the EARTHLY time-period (not "day of Christ"--when WE will be UP THERE *with HIM*)]
New International Version
not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us--whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter--asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
New Living Translation
Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.
English Standard Version
not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Berean Study Bible
not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come.
New American Standard Bible
that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
NASB 1995
that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
NASB 1977
that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Amplified Bible
not to be quickly unsettled or alarmed either by a [so-called prophetic revelation of a] spirit or a message or a letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come.
Christian Standard Bible
not to be easily upset or troubled, either by a prophecy or by a message or by a letter supposedly from us, alleging that the day of the Lord has come.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come.
Good News Translation
not to be so easily confused in your thinking or upset by the claim that the Day of the Lord has come. Perhaps it is thought that we said this while prophesying or preaching, or that we wrote it in a letter.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Don't get upset right away or alarmed when someone claims that we said through some spirit, conversation, or letter that the day of the Lord has already come.
International Standard Version
not to be so quickly upset or alarmed when someone claims that we said, either by some spirit, conversation, or letter that the Day of the Lord has already come.
NET Bible
not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.
New Heart English Bible
not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of the Lord had come.
Darby Bible Translation
that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as [if it were] by us, as that the day of the Lord is present.
English Revised Version
to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is now present;
Literal Standard Version
that you are not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the Day of the LORD has arrived;
Berean Literal Bible
for you not quickly to be shaken in mind, nor to be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as if by us, as that day of the Lord is present.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
That you would not be soon shaken in your minds, neither be troubled, either from word, nor from a spirit, neither from an epistle that is as if from us, namely, that, “Behold, The Day of our Lord has arrived.”
Godbey New Testament
that you be not suddenly shaken from your mind, nor disturbed, whether by a spirit, or through word, or a letter as by us, as that the day of the Lord has come.
Weymouth New Testament
not readily to become unsettled in mind or troubled--either by any pretended spiritual revelation or by any message or letter claiming to have been sent by us--through fancying that the day of the Lord is now here.
Worrell New Testament
that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord has set in.
Would that be PRE-12 Tribers? or, PRE-TOJT {Time of Jacob's 12-Tribes}-ers?
Just a couple of questions/problems for our Precious postie friends:
Does the Timing Of our Departure To Heaven really matter Very Much?
or "just BE READY" for Whenever, no matter what?:
I personally believe {notwithstanding 2 Thessalonians "being BEATEN-TO-DEATH!"} that The Timing of our Departure Is Very Important, Because:
(1) Which is Better?:
"men" instructing watchmen to look for antichrist, And "preparing" by
Selfishly Hoarding Up seven years of food for famine, to "endure to the
end of Great Tribulation!," Thus, "living BY SIGHT [the law]!"? Or:
Obeying God, Under HIS Amazing GRACE, "walking By FAITH, not by sight..."
Looking, Watching, And Waiting {Review Post #2,936 ...} For
...While loving our neighbor, And Selflessly working to use God's
{ Provided } money to "GIVE to them in need," while performing All
"good works" For God, in Order To Be:
►►► "Prepared" For Judgment In PRE-TOJT Departure TO Heaven! ◄◄◄
(1 Corinthians 3 : 8-15! cp 1 Corinthians 4 : 12; Ephesians 4 : 28;
1 Thessalonians 4 : 11-12; Philippians 4 : 19; 2 Corinthians 9 : 8;
Romans 12 : 20!) Amen?
(2) For those who Still Insist on “living BY SIGHT” to SEE anti-christ First,
and "enter" Into Great Tribulation, "under his {Satan's} GOVERNMENTAL
reign," Then do they not have The Following Scriptural "Dilemma"?
Please Prayerfully/Carefully Consider This - From God And HIS Word!:
Today, ALL members of The Body Of CHRIST Are Instructed, By God, To
"be subject to governmental authorities, And pray For them!"
(Romans_13 : 1-7; Titus_3 : 1; 1 Timothy_2 : 1-4).
How does that then "work out" (Disobedience?), for the Body Of CHRIST
"members," who WILL GO Into the Great Tribulation, as "the government
Will Be Under The Control" Of Satan and the Beast! (Revelation_13 : 4)?
Since posties “WILL be subject,” guess THEY had better “take his MARK,” Eh?
"Prove ALL things; hold fast That Which Is Good!" (1 Thessalonians_5 : 21 KJB!)
Be Blessed!
Just a couple of questions/problems for our Precious postie friends:
Does the Timing Of our Departure To Heaven really matter Very Much?
or "just BE READY" for Whenever, no matter what?:
I personally believe {notwithstanding 2 Thessalonians "being BEATEN-TO-DEATH!"} that The Timing of our Departure Is Very Important, Because:
(1) Which is Better?:
"men" instructing watchmen to look for antichrist, And "preparing" by
Selfishly Hoarding Up seven years of food for famine, to "endure to the
end of Great Tribulation!," Thus, "living BY SIGHT [the law]!"? Or:
Obeying God, Under HIS Amazing GRACE, "walking By FAITH, not by sight..."
Looking, Watching, And Waiting {Review Post #2,936 ...} For
[ our "Blessed HOPE!" ] The LORD JESUS CHRIST!...
...While loving our neighbor, And Selflessly working to use God's
{ Provided } money to "GIVE to them in need," while performing All
"good works" For God, in Order To Be:
►►► "Prepared" For Judgment In PRE-TOJT Departure TO Heaven! ◄◄◄
(1 Corinthians 3 : 8-15! cp 1 Corinthians 4 : 12; Ephesians 4 : 28;
1 Thessalonians 4 : 11-12; Philippians 4 : 19; 2 Corinthians 9 : 8;
Romans 12 : 20!) Amen?
(2) For those who Still Insist on “living BY SIGHT” to SEE anti-christ First,
and "enter" Into Great Tribulation, "under his {Satan's} GOVERNMENTAL
reign," Then do they not have The Following Scriptural "Dilemma"?
Please Prayerfully/Carefully Consider This - From God And HIS Word!:
Today, ALL members of The Body Of CHRIST Are Instructed, By God, To
"be subject to governmental authorities, And pray For them!"
(Romans_13 : 1-7; Titus_3 : 1; 1 Timothy_2 : 1-4).
How does that then "work out" (Disobedience?), for the Body Of CHRIST
"members," who WILL GO Into the Great Tribulation, as "the government
Will Be Under The Control" Of Satan and the Beast! (Revelation_13 : 4)?
Since posties “WILL be subject,” guess THEY had better “take his MARK,” Eh?
"Prove ALL things; hold fast That Which Is Good!" (1 Thessalonians_5 : 21 KJB!)
Be Blessed!
Matthew 24:33
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
He instructed us to see and know the things He's talking about and to wait for His return. I'm doing just that. How about you?
[re: the Subject matter IN VERSE 2]
The thing is, Paul in his previous letter to these SAME Thessalonian people had already acknowledged that THEY "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of its *ARRIVAL*... and the manner of its *ARRIVAL* has nothing to do with "smashing the man of sin / the antichrist like a bug!"...
...but rather, is LIKE the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... and Jesus had already spoken of such in His Olivet Discourse (which "beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL--SAME WORD]"--note: not the END of those BPs--are EQUIVALENT to the "SEALS" of Rev6 at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period, aka the 7-yr Trib years leading UP TO His/Christ's "RETURN" to the earth Rev19 aka the "MANIFESTATION of His presence [/parousia]" that 2Th2:8b speaks of [v.1 does not], when the man of sin / the antichrist WILL *THEN* BE "smashed like a bug!")
The thing is, Paul in his previous letter to these SAME Thessalonian people had already acknowledged that THEY "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of its *ARRIVAL*... and the manner of its *ARRIVAL* has nothing to do with "smashing the man of sin / the antichrist like a bug!"...
...but rather, is LIKE the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... and Jesus had already spoken of such in His Olivet Discourse (which "beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL--SAME WORD]"--note: not the END of those BPs--are EQUIVALENT to the "SEALS" of Rev6 at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period, aka the 7-yr Trib years leading UP TO His/Christ's "RETURN" to the earth Rev19 aka the "MANIFESTATION of His presence [/parousia]" that 2Th2:8b speaks of [v.1 does not], when the man of sin / the antichrist WILL *THEN* BE "smashed like a bug!")
I'm not surprised--I've heard this argument before. I don't think it works--there is no theology distinguishing the "Day of the Lord" from the "Day of Christ." Each phrase must be interpreted based on its use in its own context. I was using the "Day of the Lord" as a synonym fore the "Day of Christ," and that is perfectly legitimate! The terms "Christ" and "Lord" are virtually interchangeable in many instances. So the "Day of the Lord" and the "Day of Christ" can also be interchangeable. If there is more than one "Day of Christ," the context should suggest that--we must not just assume it.
So if I say Christ appears to be in your life, are you going to say, "No, the Lord is in my life!" ? I think not!
There is no fixed meaning for the "Day of the Lord." Each use has its own context. When, however, we hear of THE Day of the Lord, then the particular context in which we find the article used is referring to a specific instance of its use.
This is incomprehensible language to me. And if I can't read it, then I feel confident that Paul wasn't trying to communicate that to the whole Christian world!
Again, it is simpler to present exactly what it is saying, with no *embellishments.* The "false conveyors" were, in fact, speaking of Christ having come for his Church, aka the Rapture. Paul is correcting them on that by saying it can't have happened because it *must* happen *after* the age comes to an end and the Antichrist is destroyed. That is, when Christ comes he will come only when it is time to defeat the Antichrist, and not before.
Again, Paul was not correcting the proposed itinerary of the Day of the Lord by proposing that the Rapture happen *before* the Day of the Lord. Nothing resembles that at all! This is purely your way of trying to save Pretrib Theology.
So if I say Christ appears to be in your life, are you going to say, "No, the Lord is in my life!" ? I think not!
There is no fixed meaning for the "Day of the Lord." Each use has its own context. When, however, we hear of THE Day of the Lord, then the particular context in which we find the article used is referring to a specific instance of its use.
This is incomprehensible language to me. And if I can't read it, then I feel confident that Paul wasn't trying to communicate that to the whole Christian world!
Again, it is simpler to present exactly what it is saying, with no *embellishments.* The "false conveyors" were, in fact, speaking of Christ having come for his Church, aka the Rapture. Paul is correcting them on that by saying it can't have happened because it *must* happen *after* the age comes to an end and the Antichrist is destroyed. That is, when Christ comes he will come only when it is time to defeat the Antichrist, and not before.
Again, Paul was not correcting the proposed itinerary of the Day of the Lord by proposing that the Rapture happen *before* the Day of the Lord. Nothing resembles that at all! This is purely your way of trying to save Pretrib Theology.
I don't need 23 versions of the same verse. I memorized the entire book back in the 70s! I know what it says. It was in memorizing this letter that I converted to Postrib. Nobody coerced me. No debate. Just memorized it, and became self-convinced that what Paul was teaching was explicit Postrib, contrary to what my church was teaching me.
Biblehub was *not* stating your position. It simply provided the versions that mention the "day of the Lord." There is no reason at all to think the same cannot be called the "day of Christ," since that would be applicable as a synonym. The Lord is Christ. Therefore, the Day of the Lord can also be stated as the Day of Christ.
One may opt to use "Day of the Lord," because it gives the sense of the fulfillment of many OT prophecies, which had been expressed as the eschatological Day of the Lord. But we all know the Lord is Christ, and we shouldn't be afraid of saying it!
Biblehub was *not* stating your position. It simply provided the versions that mention the "day of the Lord." There is no reason at all to think the same cannot be called the "day of Christ," since that would be applicable as a synonym. The Lord is Christ. Therefore, the Day of the Lord can also be stated as the Day of Christ.
One may opt to use "Day of the Lord," because it gives the sense of the fulfillment of many OT prophecies, which had been expressed as the eschatological Day of the Lord. But we all know the Lord is Christ, and we shouldn't be afraid of saying it!
All one has to do is view all of the references in Scripture to "the day of Christ / our Lord Jesus Christ" and see that it involves OUR being UP THERE with Him;
and I've already mentioned how the Thessalonians already (in his first letter) "KNOW PERFECTLY" that "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES... LIKE the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... (just like Jesus tells of is at the START of a SERIES of "PLURAL birth PANGS"... IOW, it's not just "ONE and DONE" when it comes to "birth PANGS"... in both scripture and in nature! ... there are MANY MORE "birth PANGS" which follow on from the INITIAL "birth PANG" that "kicks off" that time-period [that Jesus was also covering the Subject of...])
... IOW, Paul is not just now in his SECOND letter going to totally "change" the concept of what "the DOTL" entails and ARRIVES like... (verse 2 addressing this matter)
and I've already mentioned how the Thessalonians already (in his first letter) "KNOW PERFECTLY" that "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES... LIKE the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... (just like Jesus tells of is at the START of a SERIES of "PLURAL birth PANGS"... IOW, it's not just "ONE and DONE" when it comes to "birth PANGS"... in both scripture and in nature!
... there are MANY MORE "birth PANGS" which follow on from the INITIAL "birth PANG" that "kicks off" that time-period [that Jesus was also covering the Subject of...])... IOW, Paul is not just now in his SECOND letter going to totally "change" the concept of what "the DOTL" entails and ARRIVES like...
(verse 2 addressing this matter)-
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