The shroud of Turin... Authentic or fake???

[GaryA]

I could be wrong but from memory the Roman Catholic Church doesn't actually have an opinion on the shroud

https://www.catholicvoice.org.au/re-examining-the-shroud-of-turin/

Please take note of the phrase "preserved in Turin cathedral" - a cathedral that is owned by the RCC.

 

[GaryA]

Fair point. Plus, we aren't given all the information of how the body was prepared... Only some

We are given enough information - "to put this debate to death" - after reading what the Bible says.

 

[GaryA]

It can't be disproven and if I remember there was a separate cloth. Now I'll have to watch it again but there is no doubt for me. The idea that a 'Christian' would fake it to prove the resurrection, doesn't jive and why in the world would some unbeliever go through all that work to prove it, doesn't work either. They proved so may features could not have been faked, as much as they tried.
Ok back to my movie now, y'all have a good one.

The proof in the proven is in the proving.

You have it entirely backwards if you believe every claim that is made should be believed until/unless it is disproven.

I choose to believe the Bible as being the most authoritative on the topic.

What I have seen on TV doesn't have nearly the amount of creditability that the Bible has.

 

[Mark47Oz]

I could be wrong but from memory the Roman Catholic Church doesn't actually have an opinion on the shroud

Quite correct. The RCC does not hold it up as worthy of belief and it is not officially approved. Due to the murky history of it, clear links back to Christ himself cannot be made.

But on the other hand, there are things about it that are difficult to explain at the same time. At the end of the day, it doesn't cause any harm if it leads you closer to Jesus. And as the RCC points out with anything like this that it officially holds up as being worthy of belief, one should not base their entire faith on an object or a sign. Christ is where our hearts should be.

 

[Mark47Oz]

John 20:

1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. 2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. 3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. 4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre. 5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in. 6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, 7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. 8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed. 9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. 10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.

What you are talking about there is called the Sudarim. That again supposedly exists, in a church in Oviedo, Spain.

I have seen a documentary that shows how Jesus was perhaps wrapped and it does pave the way for both relics to potentially exist.

 

[GaryA]

What you are talking about there is called the Sudarim. That again supposedly exists, in a church in Oviedo, Spain.

I have seen a documentary that shows how Jesus was perhaps wrapped and it does pave the way for both relics to potentially exist.

You are totally missing the point.

Please take a closer look at how the Turin "wrap" (if you want to call it that) is 'vertical' and not 'horizontal' - with the whole body (including the head) "imprinted" on a single piece of material.

The head/face is not [on] a separate piece of material as the Bible indicates.

 

[DeanM]

I could be wrong but from memory the Roman Catholic Church doesn't actually have an opinion on the shroud

They have the shroud. Here is a link I found.
https://www.tripsavvy.com/shroud-of-turin-visiting-information-1548064

 

[Lanolin]

I just wondered if they picked up the myrrh and aloe that Jesus body was going to be anointed with as well. or whether that was part of the cloth/shroud.
And the crown of thorns, what happened to that.

 

[TabinRivCA]

In the Cathedral of Oviedo in northern Spain is a linen cloth called the Sudarium Christi, or the Face Cloth of Christ. It is often referred to as the Cloth of Oviedo. The Sudarium Christi is a poor-quality linen cloth, like a handkerchief, measuring 33 by 21 inches. Unlike the Shroud of Turin, it does not have an image. However, it does have bloodstains and serum stains from pulmonary edema fluid which match the blood and serum patterns and blood type (AB) of the Shroud of Turin.

 

[randyk]

We've all heard about and seen pictures of the shroud of Turin...

What do you think? Is it authentic or is it fake?

I think it could authentic...

If someone could demonstrate how this was achieved then i could say it is a fake...
As far as i know, no one has been able to do that so it may possibly be authentic

I agree that it could be authentic. I would love it to be so. But I've been burned on these kinds of things before, supposed sightings of the Ark on Mt. Ararat, or various proofs of a Young Earth. I hold back now on unstudied statements. I can't possibly know about the Shroud of Turin unless the dating absolutely locks in on the 1st century. Even then, I would need to know that a great artist could not generate a phony resurrection picture by the then-current technology.

God doesn't seem to often resort to these kinds of "proofs" of His existence and the truthfulness of His Son. He only needs His word spoken to our heart, which will judge us for all eternity.

 

[TabinRivCA]

I agree that it could be authentic. I would love it to be so. But I've been burned on these kinds of things before, supposed sightings of the Ark on Mt. Ararat, or various proofs of a Young Earth. I hold back now on unstudied statements. I can't possibly know about the Shroud of Turin unless the dating absolutely locks in on the 1st century. Even then, I would need to know that a great artist could not generate a phony resurrection picture by the then-current technology.

God doesn't seem to often resort to these kinds of "proofs" of His existence and the truthfulness of His Son. He only needs His word spoken to our heart, which will judge us for all eternity.

I have the book 'The Ark on Ararat' where as a small boy, George Hogopian, was taken up Mt Ararat by his uncle who knew the mountain and weather there well. His uncle knew right where the Ark was and took George to it. He went to Washington DC with the information and he said they confiscated the paper work.
Of course, the Bible is correct

 

[randyk]

I have the book 'The Ark on Ararat' where as a small boy, George Hogopian, was taken up Mt Ararat by his uncle who knew the mountain and weather there well. His uncle knew right where the Ark was and took George to it. He went to Washington DC with the information and he said they confiscated the paper work.
Of course, the Bible is correct

Yes, I ordered a book on a supposed discovery back in the early 70s. It's always a conspiracy of some sort. I'm not sure pagans are they opposed to finding an old boat that resembles the ark?

I think it likely that a boat high up on a frozen mountain could be preserved for thousands of years. But my inkling is that the flood only covered a lower part of the range of Ararat, so that Noah and his family, along with the animals, could actually get down the mountain.

In other words, I view the Great Flood as an enormous local flood that covered "all the mountains" within sight, but not all mountains on the earth. A great book on this is "The Christian View of Science and Scripture" by Bernard Ramm. He believes the Bible, but he takes a look at how an author in ancient times would've described it.

 

[GaryA]

 

[Mark47Oz]

You are totally missing the point.

Please take a closer look at how the Turin "wrap" (if you want to call it that) is 'vertical' and not 'horizontal' - with the whole body (including the head) "imprinted" on a single piece of material.

The head/face is not [on] a separate piece of material as the Bible indicates.

My understanding is that the shroud of Turin image appears to be a primitive x-ray sort of image, whereas the Sudarim is just a cloth that was over his bloodied face.

I believe that the Sudarim was placed over his bloodied face and then yes, he was just laid on a cloth that was then vertically lifted over him because they needed to get him into the tomb in a hurry. It would therefore pave the way for the Sudarim to be taken off and placed as described in that text as well as the entire shroud.

The frustrating part with this is that the Bible mentions their existence through what you have shared. But it gives zero information to what happened to these items. You'll also notice that it does 100% say there are two separate cloths regardless of what we choose to believe about the shroud and the Sudarim.

At the end of the day, it's a very interesting conversation piece, if nothing else.

 

[Lanolin]

X-ray???

If was an x-ray, wouldnt it be of Jesus bones and we could see his skeleton?!

 

[Mark47Oz]

X-ray???

If was an x-ray, wouldnt it be of Jesus bones and we could see his skeleton?!

No, I *think* and I stress think because it's been a while since i watched the doco, that the theory is that the earthquake (it would have to have been an Aftershock) that tore the temple veil at his death released radiation. That caused his body to produce a shadow on the cloth. I believe it's the same effect as was seen in Hiroshima with those haunting and terrible shadows of humans left by the nuclear bomb dropped there.

I believe earthquakes releasing radiation is a rare, but not unknown phenomenon

 

[PC123]

We are given enough information - "to put this debate to death" - after reading what the Bible says.

The bible isn't a detailed account of the preparation of Christ's body... There is much more to preparing a corpse than just that.

How was it faked?
That's the ultimate question for me...
If your certain its fake then how was it done. Nothing like it has ever been seen

 

[PC123]

Quite correct. The RCC does not hold it up as worthy of belief and it is not officially approved. Due to the murky history of it, clear links back to Christ himself cannot be made.

But on the other hand, there are things about it that are difficult to explain at the same time. At the end of the day, it doesn't cause any harm if it leads you closer to Jesus. And as the RCC points out with anything like this that it officially holds up as being worthy of belief, one should not base their entire faith on an object or a sign. Christ is where our hearts should be.

True

 

[PC123]

My understanding is that the shroud of Turin image appears to be a primitive x-ray sort of image, whereas the Sudarim is just a cloth that was over his bloodied face.

I believe that the Sudarim was placed over his bloodied face and then yes, he was just laid on a cloth that was then vertically lifted over him because they needed to get him into the tomb in a hurry. It would therefore pave the way for the Sudarim to be taken off and placed as described in that text as well as the entire shroud.

The frustrating part with this is that the Bible mentions their existence through what you have shared. But it gives zero information to what happened to these items. You'll also notice that it does 100% say there are two separate cloths regardless of what we choose to believe about the shroud and the Sudarim.

At the end of the day, it's a very interesting conversation piece, if nothing else.

From memory
I thought that Sudarim was claimed to be a cloth used by a woman to wipe the face of Jesus's as he was carrying the cross... it wasn't used in his burial...
Could be wrong but, could be thinking of another relic...

Also I'm not sure what the talk is about X-rays but the image in the shroud came up best in a negative photo

 

[Mark47Oz]

From memory
I thought that Sudarim was claimed to be a cloth used by a woman to wipe the face of Jesus's as he was carrying the cross... it wasn't used in his burial...
Could be wrong but, could be thinking of another relic...

Also I'm not sure what the talk is about X-rays but the image in the shroud came up best in a negative photo

The Sudarim is definitely the supposed cloth from Jesus' tomb. I'd forgotten about the one you speak of though.