50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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And yet, you want to change that literal 24 hour Day, the last day of the age, into a completely different day consisting of Antichrist, the Tribulation period, and the New Millennial Age!

Absolutely, you're trying to change the subject, as well as the Scriptures! And you should definitely take a new look at your eschatology, in light of this!
I think you and I have discussed the point above, that I've bolded and underlined... and where I had said (along these lines):

--the phrase "the last day of the age" [as in, "24-hr kind of day"] is not a biblical phrase/concept (there's no passage that uses such a phrase as "the last day of the age" or to mean "the last 24-hr day" [i.e. referring to the 24-hr day of His return Rev19])

--the [distinct] phrase "the last day" refers to the third (of THREE) like in the phrases found in Hosea 5:14-6:3 - "after TWO DAYS," and "IN the THIRD DAY" (neither referring to "singular 24-hr day" type of "days")--and that John 6:39 is speaking of "THINGS," whereas 6:40 is speaking of "PERSONS" (each being what will be raised up "IN THE LAST DAY" aka "FOR the MK age"...)

--the [distinct] phrase "the END [singular] of the AGE [singular]" refers to something also entirely distinct from that of "this present age [singular]"... and it ("the END of the AGE") instead covers the future Trib years that LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age, which MK age Jesus had referred to as (and His disciples correctly understood as) "the age [singular] to come" (aka the earthly MK age);

--I think I had another point regarding this... but I'm outta gas for the night... see y'all tomorrow, Lord willing... :D 'night!
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Precious friend, first, let me say, I also believe In God's FREE GRACE; so, at the Very Least, we have that in common. Amen?
Amen!!

Even though we Disagree on:

God's Great GRACE Departure! Now, if you will recall, I already tried to discuss
this with you... here:

FreeGrace2 said: "Remember, I want to be correct just as much as you do."

...In my Post # 2890. Your response to my "study" Outline was:

"There is no 'departure' in the rapture. Other than meeting all the dead
believers with Jesus in the clouds." Compared To:

"For The LORD Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the
voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ
shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up
together with them in the clouds, to meet The LORD in the air: and so
shall we ever be with The LORD. Wherefore comfort one another with
These Words."
(1_Thessalonians 4 : 16-17 KJB!)

(1) NO "departure"? What would you call "leaving the earth"?
Since there is NO MENTION of believers going to heaven, I would NOT call the gathering in the clouds as a "departure".

When I speak or think of "departure", I think of leaving earth FOR heaven. But there are NO verses that describe such a trip.

(2) Self correcting? "Other than meeting all the dead believers"?
What would you call those "dead in CHRIST" who "shall rise first"?
Just that; "the dead in Christ". And their resurrected bodies DO rise first.

(3) "meeting all the dead believers with Jesus in the clouds"?
Isn't this the Wrong Order/Misrepresenting God's Words?:

"...the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and
remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to
meet The LORD in the air..."


Did "we get anywhere," yet? + I don't believe God's Sound Doctrine
"can be built" Only on ONE verse, But, On ALL Of God's Word!
{
see Rule # 5 in Bible "study" Rules = agree or disagree?}
Sorry, I'm not following what your point is here.

Conclusion
:

Sorry, Precious friend, if This "rapture verse is wrong," then, I
must say, I believe, as you say, "we will be getting nowhere," as
I, then Cannot "point you to any OTHER {Incorrect} rapture verse,"
which "no one else would believe," being Incorrect, Correct?

Be Blessed!
I've never said any rapture verse is wrong. What I have said is that there are NO rapture verses that describe Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. That is all I've said about rapture verses.

Therefore, I believe is it an error to claim that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven after they are resurrected and raptured.
 
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The post-tribbers are getting smoked like a hog North Carolina barbecue. How is that for an analogy?
Rather poor. Since it's not the post tribbers who have been "smoked". Unlike the pretribbers, who DO NOT HAVE ANY RAPTURE VERSE that describes Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

That is the issue. You have no evidence or support for your claims.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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I just showed 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 to someone who doesn't even read the Bible. Without my input, I asked them to explain it to me. They concluded that the coming of Jesus and our gathering to Him does not come until after the man of sin is revealed. Without me even suggesting it, they also guessed the man of sin is the anti-Christ.

Their conclusion about those who think the text says otherwise? "Some people you can't help."

Truth is that people without a dog in the race, so to speak, or preconceived biases, can't even see what pre-tribbers are saying is there. The plain reading of the verses makes the pre-trib theory a literal impossibility.
I was raised believing in a pre-trib rapture. Only when I was challenged to prove my belief did I realize that of ALL the rapture verses, none of them described Jesus taking the resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

And then there's 2 Thess 2:1-3. :)
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
I don't need Joel to understand Paul in v.1-3.
Oh but I think you do.
Paul didn't. Or he would have made reference to it in that context.

You should start at the very beginning and that would be Joel. I mean you are the one who has openly declared that you do not understand the DOTL after all. Correct?
No, that would be totally IN-correct. The DotL obviously begins WHEN Jesus returns to earth at the Second Advent, where He ends the Trib at the battle of Armageddon and sets up His Millennial kingdom.

Nothing else makes sense.

btw, where did you get the notion that I have "openly declared that I do not understand the DotL"?
 
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Runningman said:
I'm saying that I found someone to ask who doesn't have a bias about the scripture so I could get their opinion. Their opinion was that of a post-tribber because that's what the scriptures clearly explain.

Honestly, that would be a sobering wake up call to me if I heard this. I guess it's true that some people you can't help.

In my honest opinion, these discussions haven't defeated the post-trib rapture. That's a bold claim to make.
You found some one with a post-trib bias, and bought in to his False Theology.
Apparently you seem to be having a great difficulty in comprehension, if you actually did read all that Runningman posted.

The guy he asked had NO bias. That was the point. And there you go, again. Going off "half-cocked".
 
Mar 4, 2020
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I was raised believing in a pre-trib rapture. Only when I was challenged to prove my belief did I realize that of ALL the rapture verses, none of them described Jesus taking the resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

And then there's 2 Thess 2:1-3. :)
I was raised believing nothing of the sort regarding eschatology. I didn't grow up in church or studying the Bible. Yeah I had heard of the rapture before I was a Christian, but didn't have an opinion on it. When I actually started reading the Bible by myself the plain reading of text revealed a post-tribulation return of Christ, rapture, and resurrection.

The pre-trib rapture is what I like to call a special doctrine. It's not noticable without someone else there to influence the reader and teach them. I'm fortunate that I did not get locked in to pre-trib by someone else when I was still really ignorant about what the scriptures say. Praise God.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Why am I not seeing some of these posts when they're posted, instead of way later??

Just now seeing this one...

From Robertson

as that the day of the Lord is now present (ως οτ ενεστηκεν η ημερα του κυριου). Perfect active indicative of ενιστημ, old verb, to place in, but intransitive in this tense to stand in or at or near. So "is imminent" (Lightfoot).
Perhaps I'm getting a bit fuzzy on my "grammar lessons"... but didn't my Post #3329 (posted well after this one) just now show that the verb in this sentence ISN'T an "intransitive verb," but is a "transitive verb" instead?? (correct me if I'm actually forgetting what that would indicate... coz...)

... the sentence (as shown in my Post #3329) reads like this:

"...letter as if by means of us, as that IS PRESENT [verb] the day of the Lord."

Q: "'is present' what?" Answ: "the day of the Lord"...

...isn't this how one comes to determine whether a verb is "transitive" or "intransitive"? by whether the sentence has a "direct object" or not? Well... isn't the sentence (as shown above, and in my Post #3329) revealing this to be a "transitive verb" (that is, a verb having a "direct object")? It seems it does, to me (but I'm getting pretty tired right about now)... what say you?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
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Since there is NO MENTION of believers going to heaven, I would NOT call the gathering in the clouds as a "departure".

When I speak or think of "departure", I think of leaving earth FOR heaven.
So a "departure" can only be a "departure" if the rapture takes us to HEAVEN as the "destination"?? Coz "away from the earth" is not enough to categorize this as a "departure," in any way? I don't get the reasoning here... but, oh well
 
Oct 23, 2020
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Why am I not seeing some of these posts when they're posted, instead of way later??

Just now seeing this one...



Perhaps I'm getting a bit fuzzy on my "grammar lessons"... but didn't my Post #3329 (posted well after this one) just now show that the verb in this sentence ISN'T an "intransitive verb," but is a "transitive verb" instead?? (correct me if I'm actually forgetting what that would indicate... coz...)

... the sentence (as shown in my Post #3329) reads like this:

"...letter as if by means of us, as that IS PRESENT [verb] the day of the Lord."

Q: "'is present' what?" Answ: "the day of the Lord"...

...isn't this how one comes to determine whether a verb is "transitive" or "intransitive"? by whether the sentence has a "direct object" or not? Well... isn't the sentence (as shown above, and in my Post #3329) revealing this to be a "transitive verb" (that is, a verb having a "direct object")? It seems it does, to me (but I'm getting pretty tired right about now)... what say you?
i accepted your point TDW and then replied again. here, I'll make it easy for you

A synopsis of Paul's statements:

1) The Church is suffering at the hands of Jerusalem
2) This is a good thing as it means when God (in the future) judges Jerusalem it will be seen to be a righteous judgment
3) This judgment is the revelation of Jesus
4) The consequence of the judgment is that the saints, the Church, will now be the glory of God, as the glory will have departed the temple and Christ has been vindicated (prophecy fulfilled)
5) Paul exhorts the church at Thesslonika to attain the Glory - i.e. to remain faithful until the Temple is destroyed

Then Paul says:

2 As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

I.E. Once you have lived through the destruction of the Temple, the revelation of the
Lord Jesus from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels, don't confuse this event with the Lord's Coming.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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You are contradicting the massed ranks of Greek scholars of the KJV, as well as Robertson and Lightfoot, amongst others, so I was expecting a really well-researched, well-supported case.
How is what I put in my post before this one, going against these two, Robertson and Lightfoot... by that, I mean, am I incorrect in what I just put in my post right before this, above [OOPS... I mean my Post #3348]?? If so, tell me how? I wanna know... = )



EDIT to ADD:
i accepted your point TDW and then replied again.
Okay... thanks.

I think you are saying you agree with me that it IS a "transitive verb"? right?
 
Oct 23, 2020
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How is what I put in my post before this one, going against these two, Robertson and Lightfoot... by that, I mean, am I incorrect in what I just put in my post right before this, above [OOPS... I mean my Post #3348]?? If so, tell me how? I wanna know... = )
Just read my previous post - we are ready to move on
 
Oct 23, 2020
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How is what I put in my post before this one, going against these two, Robertson and Lightfoot... by that, I mean, am I incorrect in what I just put in my post right before this, above [OOPS... I mean my Post #3348]?? If so, tell me how? I wanna know... = )
What you said is valid. Although there are some very notable scholars who see the meaning as 'at hand',
they are a bit in the minority. The use of the perfect indicative active of enistemi to mean 'has come'
is the logical and widely accepted translation.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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The post-tribbers are getting smoked like a hog North Carolina barbecue. How is that for an analogy?
But, but, but....darby

But, but, but...lahaye

But, but, but....one coming

But, but, but....i think

But, but, but....yes we do have a verse.....some where

But, but, but.....there is no rapture

But, but, but....the thessalonians were confused.... Somewhere in there they were not expecting jesus. Or wait....they were but paul turned them into postribs ....uh 'cause he was also as worried about darby as postribs.

Face it! Darby did it! Darby conspired to put all your rapture verses in the bible!

That Darby dude!!!!

That dead man is the enemy of heaven!!!!!
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Paul raised the issue of the Day of the Rapture, or the Coming of Jesus for the Church. He did not bring up, initially, any sense that there was this supposed "extended day," involving the rise of Antichrist. He did bring the Antichrist up, but only to show that he must precede Christ's coming for the Church.

He did not bring this day of Christ's Coming up to indicate that people believed that the Day of the Lord was an extended period of time, or that it had already begun. He was not stating that the Departure of the Church had to take place before an extended "Day of the Lord" could begin. Since he had raised the issue up of the coming of the Lord for the Church it is that particular Day that he indicated others were declaring had already taken place. That is, others were not saying an *extended Day of the Lord* had already begun. Rather, Paul was saying that these errant brothers were claiming that the literal Day of Christ's Coming had already happened, and that the Kingdom had come in them!



When Paul compared Christ's Coming to a birth pang that comes upon a woman at childbirth, the emphasis is on the birth of the child, and not on the birth pains!

1 Thes 5.1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

This allegory does not denote that the Day of the Lord is a "long day," beginning with a Tribulation Period and ending with the Millennial Kingdom! Rather, it is emphasizing the suddenness of the Coming itself! A "thief" does not come with a lot of preliminary warning signs!

The birth pains in this particular passage are *immediately before* the coming of the child. They can even be said to be simultaneous with the birth of the child. And so, Paul is saying that Jesus' Coming will take place immediately, without warning, at the 1st sign of birth. There will be no warning period--no Tribulation Period to serve as advance warning. People will only see trouble in the world, just as they've always seen. And as these troubles worsen, they only curse God, and have no sense that Armageddon is about to erupt.

The Day of the Lord, therefore, begins at the Coming pf Christ for his Church, and not with the trouble that precedes it. Paul is not calling the "Day of the Lord" the "birth pains." He is not calling the "Day of the Lord" the "Tribulation Period" that precedes the coming of Christ for his Church.

In this particular scenario, Paul seems to be speaking of a woman giving birth *immediately,* at the instant birth pains show up. This is very different from the scenario in the Olivet Discourse, where Jesus describes preliminary signs indicating the fall of Jerusalem is imminent.

Before Jerusalem fell in 70 AD, there were rumors of wars and trouble brewing. There were false prophets of peace, and false proclamations of God's Kingdom entering through Israel. These were extended signs, designed to warn Jewish Christians in advance of the fall of Jerusalem.

But the birth pains Paul is describing in 1 Thes 5 are different, and have to do with the Return of Christ. There will be no advance signs to warn the world of the coming judgment at Christ's return. As soon as the birth pains begin, the child is delivered.

Isa 66.8 Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.

People of the world will not recognize the signs of the "Great Tribulation" period. They will not recognize the "Antichrist." They've seen many emperor and powerful kings in history. And they've seen a lot of wars and natural disasters. They will not be prepared for Christ's Coming "like a thief in the night." As soon as the birth pangs begin, the child is delivered.



No, Paul is saying that these "false conveyors" were declaring the Coming of the Lord for the Church had already come. A present indicative, as applied to the "coming," does not indicate that they believed the "day of the Lord" had already started in the past and would continue to the present. Rather, the present indicative applies to the idea that these "false conveyors" believed something in the past and still were believing it, namely that Christ had already come for his Church, and that the Kingdom was being realized in their little cult.



No, the Day of the Lord elsewhere in the Bible is applied to a variety of things, including major judgments and major blessings. But there is no singular term "Day of the Lord" that technically applies, in all cases, to all of these.

Sometimes the "day of Christ's Coming" applies only to the 24 hour day in which he returns. Sometimes it refers to the eschatological judgment of the Antichrist. At other times it refers to the initiation of the Kingdom Age. But the term "Day of the Lord" does not have one established meaning such that it must refer to all of these in each instance.

Context is king, brother! Context must determine how a word or phrase is used. And the "day" 2 Thes 2 is speaking of explicitly refers to the 24 hour day in which Christ returns for his Church--not to an extended day, including judgments and blessings that precede and follow it. You are trying to transfer a distorted idea of the "day of the Lord" in 1 Thes 5 to 2 Thes 2, but you have the meaning of the "day of the Lord" wrong in 1 Thes 5!



I believe you're misrepresenting what the Thessalonians knew and what the errant brethren were claiming, and there is nothing here in the Scriptures that claim what you are claiming. It is far more likely, from what we read, that Paul had taught the Thessalonians about the day of Christ's Coming and the "Rapture," as evidenced in 1 Thes 4. And it is much more likely that Paul did *not* define the "day of the Lord" used in 1 Thes 5 as you do, as an extended period of time, replete with pre-judgments and post-blessings.

It is far more likely that the Thessalonians had been taught what Paul, as a Jewish teacher knew, that in Dan 7 the Man of Sin would oppose God, produce a world-wide apostasy against Christ, and ultimately be destroyed at the coming of Christ 3.5 years later.

The errant brothers were teaching that somehow the Kingdom had already arrived in their cultic Christian movement, claiming authority that they didn't have. But Paul warned that their authority was feigned, and would not produce results. Instead, the Thessalonian Christians should expect continued opposition from the ungodly world until Christ himself comes back to judge the earth.



Actually Paul *is* in fact saying that these errant brothers thought the Rapture had already occurred, or at least that Christ had come to them. The Kingdom they claimed was in their cult movement, and they were somehow the Kingdom's judges and victors. Sounds a bit like Dominion Theology?
Lol

That is a grand canyon leap to say they thought the rapture happened, but no believers were missing.

Oh brother...face palm
 
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What you said is valid. Although there are some very notable scholars who see the meaning as 'at hand',
they are a bit in the minority. The use of the perfect indicative active of enistemi to mean 'has come'
is the logical and widely accepted translation.
argueing over departure vs falling away is a rabbit trail.

BOTH interpretations are pretrib, as it says the ac is revealed and then the rapture.

Yes play it out. The ac is revealed.

That means we know WHO HE IS.

HELLO....that could happen 3 days before the rapture....1 day....10 days....a week, then the rapture.

Now think about it. Is that dynamic postrib???????

You think revealed means 7 yrs after he is seated in power?????

7 years later we say "oh wait a minute ....that dude is the ac"?

Go back and read it. " something is holding him back. That something is removed. Then he takes power"

Now lets see....what could that removal be????
Hmmmmmmm
 
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For 1800 years the Christian Church has viewed that it is wrong to claim some kind of realization of Christ's Kingdom before the proper time, ie before Christ physically arrives. Various movements have claimed to be eschatological movements of a realized Kingdom in which they will somehow impose God's Kingdom upon the world.

There is a false sense of "imminency" or a false sense of "urgency" in claiming that the Kingdom has already come, in some twisted spiritual sense. Or it may even be claimed that it is in the process of coming, ie imminent, inciting radical preparation and separation from all present concerns.

At any rate, Jesus warned against "False Christs" and "False Prophets," which cover all of these things. Whether you want to say that the Day of the Lord is not the actual Coming of Christ, but only some kind of close proximate presence of his Coming or imminent, it is still false to claim any kind of actual eschatological manifestation on earth until Christ himself comes.

Clearly, Paul was talking, in 2 Thes 2 about the nature of the proximity of Christ's coming for the Church, and not about some era defined as the "day of the Lord." Paul made that perfectly clear in vs. 1!

Pretribulationism is completely built on this constant sense of urgency, as if the Kingdom is already in the process of coming, or hovering overhead, ready to pounce on us at any moment. This is the kind of thing Paul was warning against.

We should we at peace, knowing that a day has been fixed for Christ's return, and that we have a job to do in the meantime, testifying to the world about that day. And we should be prepared to face obstacles until Christ himself returns to remove those obstacles. We should not grow lazy in being watchful for these things. Until Christ returns, there will be obstacles and distractions. Stay alert!
A few posts back you were insisting on context.

Yet the context of the PERCEPTION of the early church was a destroyed and scattered israel.

They were decieved by thinking it was COMPLETELY OVER for israel.

FF to 1947-1948. Israel becomes a nation once again.

Lets see......context?

Those dead men you invoke were decieved.
At this late hour we are able to see WHAT THEY COULD NOT.

Darby was ahead of the game.

Big time
 
Oct 23, 2020
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argueing over departure vs falling away is a rabbit trail.

BOTH interpretations are pretrib, as it says the ac is revealed and then the rapture.

Yes play it out. The ac is revealed.

That means we know WHO HE IS.

HELLO....that could happen 3 days before the rapture....1 day....10 days....a week, then the rapture.

Now think about it. Is that dynamic postrib???????

You think revealed means 7 yrs after he is seated in power?????

7 years later we say "oh wait a minute ....that dude is the ac"?

Go back and read it. " something is holding him back. That something is removed. Then he takes power"

Now lets see....what could that removal be????
Hmmmmmmm
I'm not arguing over departure vs rapture.
I am not sure of the purpose of that argument

I never expressed any thoughts about the Man of Sin.
I don't see the connection between the Man of Sin and a 7 year 'Tribulation'.
All I am specifically clued into is that the Man of Sin is revealed before the Rapture.
I imagine that if the Jews had crowned a King Of Israel while under Roman Occupation,
they would have been invaded quelled and crushed in double quick time.
So i assume that the restraining force here is the Roman Empire.
 
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I was raised believing nothing of the sort regarding eschatology. I didn't grow up in church or studying the Bible. Yeah I had heard of the rapture before I was a Christian, but didn't have an opinion on it. When I actually started reading the Bible by myself the plain reading of text revealed a post-tribulation return of Christ, rapture, and resurrection.

The pre-trib rapture is what I like to call a special doctrine. It's not noticable without someone else there to influence the reader and teach them. I'm fortunate that I did not get locked in to pre-trib by someone else when I was still really ignorant about what the scriptures say. Praise God.
"""When I actually started reading the Bible by myself the plain reading of text revealed a post-tribulation return of Christ, rapture, and resurrection."""

Name the verse/verses.
Should be real easy.

I am sure you can not make a biblical defense.

You will deflect for sure.