50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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Rev 19 they are there
Also they eat with Jesus. (disembodied spirits do not)
The early martyrs , in heaven, are confined under the altar. The innumerable number in heaven are martyrs FROM THE GT.
They are before the throne, no longer are martyrs confined under the altar.
There is 2 witnesses against your claim.
Bible
Use bible verses
Also they eat with Jesus. (disembodied spirits do not)
The early martyrs , in heaven, are confined under the altar. The innumerable number in heaven are martyrs FROM THE GT.
They are before the throne, no longer are martyrs confined under the altar.
There is 2 witnesses against your claim.
Bible
Use bible verses
Eschatalogically I am very lightweight - just some vague notions really.
I think the main thing is to be a good Christian in all seasons.
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I guess:
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days (once the 2000-odd year suffering of the Jews ends)
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
(Celestial bodies are semiotic. I think this all refers to the Antichrist; the moon is the Old Covenant, the Sun is the Abrahamic New Covenant, the stars are Israelites. Here is the last gasp of the unbelieving to install a false King Of Israel)
30 “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. (The Antichrist will be toasted by the Church; the Jews will recognize Christ)
And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn (The Israelites mourned for 30 days for Moses - So a period of 30 years of mourning)
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
I think the main thing is to be a good Christian in all seasons.
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I guess:
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days (once the 2000-odd year suffering of the Jews ends)
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
(Celestial bodies are semiotic. I think this all refers to the Antichrist; the moon is the Old Covenant, the Sun is the Abrahamic New Covenant, the stars are Israelites. Here is the last gasp of the unbelieving to install a false King Of Israel)
30 “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. (The Antichrist will be toasted by the Church; the Jews will recognize Christ)
And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn (The Israelites mourned for 30 days for Moses - So a period of 30 years of mourning)
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
First clue was Matthew 24:29-31 where Jesus states plainly that He will return after the tribulation.
The way I understood any verses about the return of Christ from that point forward was that Jesus returns after the tribulation or else the Bible contradicts itself.
Since Jesus said He returns after the tribulation then 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 will occur after the tribulation. After the tribulation Jesus returns, the dead are resurrected, the rapture occurs.
Then there's 2 Thessalonians 2 which describes Jesus' return to destroy the man of sin. The man of sin is one of the protagonists of the tribulation. Therefore, Jesus returns after the conclusion of the 42 months of anti-Christ reign to destroy him.
Conclusively, the theme of Jesus' return after the tribulation to gather the church is consistent through the Bible.
Sounds very logical right? I'm not even going to get deep into Daniel, Isaiah, or Revelation.
The way I understood any verses about the return of Christ from that point forward was that Jesus returns after the tribulation or else the Bible contradicts itself.
Since Jesus said He returns after the tribulation then 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 will occur after the tribulation. After the tribulation Jesus returns, the dead are resurrected, the rapture occurs.
Then there's 2 Thessalonians 2 which describes Jesus' return to destroy the man of sin. The man of sin is one of the protagonists of the tribulation. Therefore, Jesus returns after the conclusion of the 42 months of anti-Christ reign to destroy him.
Conclusively, the theme of Jesus' return after the tribulation to gather the church is consistent through the Bible.
Sounds very logical right? I'm not even going to get deep into Daniel, Isaiah, or Revelation.
FreeGrace2 said:
Since there is NO MENTION of believers going to heaven, I would NOT call the gathering in the clouds as a "departure".
When I speak or think of "departure", I think of leaving earth FOR heaven.
I'm not really interested in your definition fo departure. I explained how I take the word. You're free to take it any way you want.
Yes, the living believers do are gathered up in the clouds. So what? Everyone agrees that this occurs.
So why all the emphasis on what "departure" means anyway?
Again, what is the problem? Everyone understands that the living believers meet the Lord in the air, with all the dead believers who came with Jesus.
Let me ask you this; what verse SHOWS that believers DEPART earth FOR heaven after the resurrection and rapture?
That's the ONLY ISSUE for any relevant meaning of DEPARTURE.
Since there is NO MENTION of believers going to heaven, I would NOT call the gathering in the clouds as a "departure".
When I speak or think of "departure", I think of leaving earth FOR heaven.
I'm not really interested in your definition fo departure. I explained how I take the word. You're free to take it any way you want.
Yes, the living believers do are gathered up in the clouds. So what? Everyone agrees that this occurs.
So why all the emphasis on what "departure" means anyway?
Again, what is the problem? Everyone understands that the living believers meet the Lord in the air, with all the dead believers who came with Jesus.
Let me ask you this; what verse SHOWS that believers DEPART earth FOR heaven after the resurrection and rapture?
That's the ONLY ISSUE for any relevant meaning of DEPARTURE.
Quote. """I've never said any rapture verse is wrong. What I have said is that there are NO rapture verses that describe Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. That is all I've said about rapture verses."""
You take an assumption and actually build off of assumption.
Play it out. Apply it in hundreds of applications.
The list is endless
" no eskimos mentioned in heaven..therefore...."
" no blacks mentioned in heaven...therefore..."
"No butterflies mentioned in heaven...therefore..."
You take abstract generalities and actually incorporate them into bulletproof doctrine.
You take an assumption and actually build off of assumption.
Play it out. Apply it in hundreds of applications.
The list is endless
" no eskimos mentioned in heaven..therefore...."
" no blacks mentioned in heaven...therefore..."
"No butterflies mentioned in heaven...therefore..."
You take abstract generalities and actually incorporate them into bulletproof doctrine.
"""Since there is NO MENTION of believers going to heaven, I would NOT call the gathering in the clouds as a "departure".
When I speak or think of "departure", I think of leaving earth FOR heaven. But there are NO verses that describe such a trip.""""
How did the bride of christ sitting on horses IN HEAVEN become the wife IN HEAVEN?
When I speak or think of "departure", I think of leaving earth FOR heaven. But there are NO verses that describe such a trip.""""
How did the bride of christ sitting on horses IN HEAVEN become the wife IN HEAVEN?
FreeGrace2 said:
Amen!!
Since there is NO MENTION of believers going to heaven, I would NOT call the gathering in the clouds as a "departure".
When I speak or think of "departure", I think of leaving earth FOR heaven. But there are NO verses that describe such a trip.
Just that; "the dead in Christ". And their resurrected bodies DO rise first.
Sorry, I'm not following what your point is here.
I've never said any rapture verse is wrong. What I have said is that there are NO rapture verses that describe Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. That is all I've said about rapture verses.
Who are where? Please be more clear when you post.
Please quote or at least cite your "evidence".
OK, let's pause here a bit. How to the 2 Olive trees go against my claim? Please explain clearly.
You're the one who doesn't. You just make a lot of claims, and leave out any evidence from Scripture.
And, the most outrageous thing is claiming a pretrib rapture to heaven, when NO rapture verse says that.
All you have is a parable, and then you just spiritual the life out of it.
Amen!!
Since there is NO MENTION of believers going to heaven, I would NOT call the gathering in the clouds as a "departure".
When I speak or think of "departure", I think of leaving earth FOR heaven. But there are NO verses that describe such a trip.
Just that; "the dead in Christ". And their resurrected bodies DO rise first.
Sorry, I'm not following what your point is here.
I've never said any rapture verse is wrong. What I have said is that there are NO rapture verses that describe Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. That is all I've said about rapture verses.
Who are where? Please be more clear when you post.
Please quote or at least cite your "evidence".
OK, let's pause here a bit. How to the 2 Olive trees go against my claim? Please explain clearly.
You're the one who doesn't. You just make a lot of claims, and leave out any evidence from Scripture.
And, the most outrageous thing is claiming a pretrib rapture to heaven, when NO rapture verse says that.
All you have is a parable, and then you just spiritual the life out of it.
This is one VERY FUNNY comment. From one who has made HUGE ASSUMPTIONS about Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believer to heaven, when there are NO SUCH VERSES THAT SAY THAT.
Obviously you haven't noticed that I don't make assumptions. I take what the Bible SAYS. You, otoh, assume a whole bunch.
Obviously you haven't noticed that I don't make assumptions. I take what the Bible SAYS. You, otoh, assume a whole bunch.
I have previously explain in detail all this.
By the time we get to Jesus coming to resurrect and rapture all believers, the VAST MAJORITY of the Bride will ALREADY be in heaven.
They are the DEAD SAINTS who accompany Jesus to earth for the resurrection of their bodies.
That's why there is a Bride in heaven. There has been over 2,000 years of the deaths of saints that have been POPULATING heaven.
I hope this concept isn't too difficult to grasp. But I know it will refute your assumptions a bit.
By the time we get to Jesus coming to resurrect and rapture all believers, the VAST MAJORITY of the Bride will ALREADY be in heaven.
They are the DEAD SAINTS who accompany Jesus to earth for the resurrection of their bodies.
That's why there is a Bride in heaven. There has been over 2,000 years of the deaths of saints that have been POPULATING heaven.
I hope this concept isn't too difficult to grasp. But I know it will refute your assumptions a bit.
Well the whole purpose of the Church is to be strong - strong enough to overcome.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out........21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
The pillar refers to the 12 tribes (Exodus 24:4) The throne is where the saints judge the 12 tribes of israel
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
It just seems to me that a main duty of the Church is to bring the unbelieving Jews back into israel
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out........21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
The pillar refers to the 12 tribes (Exodus 24:4) The throne is where the saints judge the 12 tribes of israel
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
It just seems to me that a main duty of the Church is to bring the unbelieving Jews back into israel
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
I mean I don't see this as Jesus in person
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
I see the brightness of the coming as the light of prophecy, and the Spirit of Jesus's mouth as the force of Scripture
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
I see the brightness of the coming as the light of prophecy, and the Spirit of Jesus's mouth as the force of Scripture
2 Thes 2.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
It seems very simple to me. The day of Christ's coming for the Church will not come before the rebellion/apostasy/departure from the faith takes place and the Man of Sin is revealed. Paraphrased, this means that 2 things happen *before* Christ comes. 1) The Apostasy must take place. 2) The Man of Sin must be revealed.
I equate the Apostasy and the Antichrist because they are derived from Dan 7, where the Man of Sin leads an apostasy against God and against His saints.
Dan 7.8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully... 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them
It seems very simple to me. The day of Christ's coming for the Church will not come before the rebellion/apostasy/departure from the faith takes place and the Man of Sin is revealed. Paraphrased, this means that 2 things happen *before* Christ comes. 1) The Apostasy must take place. 2) The Man of Sin must be revealed.
I equate the Apostasy and the Antichrist because they are derived from Dan 7, where the Man of Sin leads an apostasy against God and against His saints.
Dan 7.8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully... 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them
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Quoting 1 Thes 4.14-17 doesn't make my position untenable. I didn't even say that the Holy Spirit was the Lord's 2nd Coming, so you completely misrepresent my position. I hypothesized that a cultic group may have considered the Spirit of God in their midst indicated Christ had come *through them!*
My position is that a cultic group of Christians began to declare that they were the 2nd Coming of Jesus to the Church. They represented the beginning of God's Kingdom on earth.
Jesus had warned about this, so it is hardly "untenable!" Jesus said that if some come saying they are the Christ, you shouldn't follow them. False representations of the eschatological Kingdom will happen on earth, and should be ignored or exposed.
The power of the Kingdom to completely defeat Satan will not come until Christ actually comes. And until then we are to shore ourselves up to endure some defeats and experience some suffering.
It won't all come to an end until Antichrist culminates this satanic world in his own revelation and Christ comes to defeat him. In other words, it only ends when it actually ends. Beware of false claims of "God's power" in the present realm until that time. We can't allow ourselves to fall asleep while dangerous conditions continue to exist.
My position is that a cultic group of Christians began to declare that they were the 2nd Coming of Jesus to the Church. They represented the beginning of God's Kingdom on earth.
Jesus had warned about this, so it is hardly "untenable!" Jesus said that if some come saying they are the Christ, you shouldn't follow them. False representations of the eschatological Kingdom will happen on earth, and should be ignored or exposed.
The power of the Kingdom to completely defeat Satan will not come until Christ actually comes. And until then we are to shore ourselves up to endure some defeats and experience some suffering.
It won't all come to an end until Antichrist culminates this satanic world in his own revelation and Christ comes to defeat him. In other words, it only ends when it actually ends. Beware of false claims of "God's power" in the present realm until that time. We can't allow ourselves to fall asleep while dangerous conditions continue to exist.
Don't really need to watch the video now. We're speaking of something else, namely 2 Thes 2. But I'm well aware of the discussion. My brother and I have gone over it several times over the last year or so. We both believe the elders are angels. My brother convinced me of this by pointing out that the structure, of 24 elders, relates to an arrangement of priests in the OT worship. I won't go into it now.
The temple worship in ancient times was, I believe, picturing heavenly worship in NT times. These are, I believe, angels. But I agree, if the word "us" is in there, they are more likely Christians. Not that any of this has to do with Pretribism. The scenes in heaven are purely visions, and many of them are prolepses--another reference to George Ladd, who used that word, I believe.
The temple worship in ancient times was, I believe, picturing heavenly worship in NT times. These are, I believe, angels. But I agree, if the word "us" is in there, they are more likely Christians. Not that any of this has to do with Pretribism. The scenes in heaven are purely visions, and many of them are prolepses--another reference to George Ladd, who used that word, I believe.
That's kind of along the lines of what I've said very early in this thread (or in the other thread).
It doesn't make sense to me that Paul would be writing this second epistle to them to instruct them not to be "shaken in mind" and "troubled" by those who would be falsely purporting that an "imaginary rapture" (with no tangible evidence anywhere) has already taken place, and that this false message would be coming from those very people who are supposedly saying they've already experienced this rapture and are now "here to tell you about it"... or are "over there, to still tell you about it"... not sure from where, or why they would feel the need to go out of their way to tell the Thessalonians about it (are they saying, "we went, you didn't, but here we are again"??)... and that this would be in any way believable to the Thessalonians, or "troubling" / "shaken in mind"-worthy and needing a word of admonition from Paul to them about it... given what we know they knew from his first epistle, about being "caught up together" with those believers who'd already died, and that it would be "to the meeting of the Lord in the air," etc... (no one else was "gone missing," thus no tangible evidence that the real rapture had occurred... which would be another track altogether...).
I'm not convinced this was the substance of the false claim Paul was covering in v.2. Verse 3 starts out will "that day will NOT be present [contrasting this with what the false claim's Subject in v.2 was], if not shall have come..." [...ONE THING *FIRST*]
It doesn't make sense to me that Paul would be writing this second epistle to them to instruct them not to be "shaken in mind" and "troubled" by those who would be falsely purporting that an "imaginary rapture" (with no tangible evidence anywhere) has already taken place, and that this false message would be coming from those very people who are supposedly saying they've already experienced this rapture and are now "here to tell you about it"... or are "over there, to still tell you about it"... not sure from where, or why they would feel the need to go out of their way to tell the Thessalonians about it (are they saying, "we went, you didn't, but here we are again"??)... and that this would be in any way believable to the Thessalonians, or "troubling" / "shaken in mind"-worthy and needing a word of admonition from Paul to them about it... given what we know they knew from his first epistle, about being "caught up together" with those believers who'd already died, and that it would be "to the meeting of the Lord in the air," etc... (no one else was "gone missing," thus no tangible evidence that the real rapture had occurred... which would be another track altogether...).
I'm not convinced this was the substance of the false claim Paul was covering in v.2. Verse 3 starts out will "that day will NOT be present [contrasting this with what the false claim's Subject in v.2 was], if not shall have come..." [...ONE THING *FIRST*]
Okay, so you're saying that "23 mss say 'US'--ZERO mss say 'THEM'"... and the 24 elders are saying "...hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out-of EVERY kindred/tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation" ... and that supposedly is proof they are "angels"? (not sure where else in scripture angels are called "elders" either...)
I really must disagree, here.
I really must disagree, here.
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Here's a post I'd made about ONE of THREE places in Scripture where "24" person group is talked about... and this first one kind of correlates with the posts I've made about Heb9:8-9a's wording (in the Greek) about "[while]... the tabernacle [the one in the 'wilderness' per the furnishings of v.4] yet having A STANDING [STASIS / STASIN], which is A PARABLE for the PRESENT TIME...":
[quoting old post on one set of those "24"]
"In 1 Chronicles 25 we have the service of song. "Moreover, David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals." It is called "prophesying" because it so directly brought in God, which is the emphatic meaning of prophesying. "And the number of the workmen according to their service was" - so and so. There were twenty-four courses of the singers. Now, this was another remarkable change. In the tabernacle, song was not the characteristic feature, but sacrifice; but in the temple in the day of glory, the song of triumph is the new and suitable feature."
--William Kelly, 1 Chronicles 25
[bold, color, underline mine]
...see also the following commentary excerpt:
[quoting Gaebelein]
"The Twenty-Four Divisions [Courses] of Musicians" - 1 Chronicles 25
"As we have seen before, Asaph [means "gatherer"], Jeduthun (Ethan) [means "praising"] and Heman [means "faithful"] were the master leaders in song and music; their service was eminently spiritual, for we read “they should prophesy.” Heman especially is called the king’s seer in the words of God. This is a significant expression. How much there is in what is termed “worship”, which has nothing whatever of the words of God in it. In most of the songs used in our times there is little of the words of God and many contain unscriptural and sentimental phrases. Israel’s worship in song and music was to be spiritual, prophesying and in the words of God. Christian worship is not less. It is to be in spirit and in truth. “Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord” (Colossians 3:16). Asaph had four sons, Jeduthun six, and Heman fourteen, equal to twenty-four. They were divided into twenty-four courses of twelve men each, equal to 288, who served a week in turn. The names of six of the sons of Heman form, in the Hebrew, a complete sentence. Giddalti, Romamti-ezer, joshbekashah, Mallothi, Hothir and Mahazioth (verse 4) may be rendered in English:
I have magnified and I have raised up help;
Sitting in trouble, I have spoken oracles plentiful.
This fact has aroused the suspicion of the critics regarding the genuineness of this entire list of names. “Now this sentence,” saith a critic, “is either an obscure and ancient prayer which hath been mistaken for a list of names by the compiler, or else the compiler has purposely strung together those significant names in such order as to form a sentence” (W.R. Harvey-Jellic). But it is not the mistake of the compiler or an invention. We read that God gave to Heman these sons and the pious Israelite named his sons so as to produce this meaning. There are many such messages in names throughout the Bible. (See annotations on Genesis 5.)
--Arno C Gaebelein, on 1 Chronicles 25
[end quoting; bold, underline, and brackets mine; parentheses original]
[see esp vv.1,6-7,31]
[note: v.1 "with harps [see Rev5], with psalteries ['earthen vessels'], and with cymbals"...hmmm...]
[end quoting old post]
____________
I too have mentioned the "24 Courses of Priests" also, in past posts... as well as mentioning the third set of "24" I see in another section of the OT... in Numbers...
[quoting old post on one set of those "24"]
"In 1 Chronicles 25 we have the service of song. "Moreover, David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals." It is called "prophesying" because it so directly brought in God, which is the emphatic meaning of prophesying. "And the number of the workmen according to their service was" - so and so. There were twenty-four courses of the singers. Now, this was another remarkable change. In the tabernacle, song was not the characteristic feature, but sacrifice; but in the temple in the day of glory, the song of triumph is the new and suitable feature."
--William Kelly, 1 Chronicles 25
[bold, color, underline mine]
...see also the following commentary excerpt:
[quoting Gaebelein]
"The Twenty-Four Divisions [Courses] of Musicians" - 1 Chronicles 25
"As we have seen before, Asaph [means "gatherer"], Jeduthun (Ethan) [means "praising"] and Heman [means "faithful"] were the master leaders in song and music; their service was eminently spiritual, for we read “they should prophesy.” Heman especially is called the king’s seer in the words of God. This is a significant expression. How much there is in what is termed “worship”, which has nothing whatever of the words of God in it. In most of the songs used in our times there is little of the words of God and many contain unscriptural and sentimental phrases. Israel’s worship in song and music was to be spiritual, prophesying and in the words of God. Christian worship is not less. It is to be in spirit and in truth. “Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord” (Colossians 3:16). Asaph had four sons, Jeduthun six, and Heman fourteen, equal to twenty-four. They were divided into twenty-four courses of twelve men each, equal to 288, who served a week in turn. The names of six of the sons of Heman form, in the Hebrew, a complete sentence. Giddalti, Romamti-ezer, joshbekashah, Mallothi, Hothir and Mahazioth (verse 4) may be rendered in English:
I have magnified and I have raised up help;
Sitting in trouble, I have spoken oracles plentiful.
This fact has aroused the suspicion of the critics regarding the genuineness of this entire list of names. “Now this sentence,” saith a critic, “is either an obscure and ancient prayer which hath been mistaken for a list of names by the compiler, or else the compiler has purposely strung together those significant names in such order as to form a sentence” (W.R. Harvey-Jellic). But it is not the mistake of the compiler or an invention. We read that God gave to Heman these sons and the pious Israelite named his sons so as to produce this meaning. There are many such messages in names throughout the Bible. (See annotations on Genesis 5.)
--Arno C Gaebelein, on 1 Chronicles 25
[end quoting; bold, underline, and brackets mine; parentheses original]
[see esp vv.1,6-7,31]
[note: v.1 "with harps [see Rev5], with psalteries ['earthen vessels'], and with cymbals"...hmmm...]
[end quoting old post]
____________
I too have mentioned the "24 Courses of Priests" also, in past posts... as well as mentioning the third set of "24" I see in another section of the OT... in Numbers...
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