50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[soberxp]

I disagree only if you're referring to "the remnant / rest [plural] of her seed" in v.17 which will still be on the earth (as "the woman" herself will also still be) after she "HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [arsena / arren]" at some point PRIOR TO this MID-trib context (Rev12), which "male [SINGULAR]" had also already been "caught up" PRIOR TO this point in the chronology... IOW, "the male [singular]" will NOT be located on the earth, as "the woman" and "the remnant of her seed" ARE shown to be located, see. (Micah 5:3's "remnant / rest of" = Rev12:17's "remnant / rest [plural] of her seed"--not speaking of the ONE having PREVIOUSLY been birthed and "caught UP" [no longer located on the earth], by this point, see...)

Your daydream is fly to heaven immediately and never die on earth.

If you're willing to embrace these doctrines, it's your problem. I don't want to explain these. I accept after "sleeping" then meet Jesus in heaven.

 

[OldSage]

I'm just curious... how do you explain that this "sign" of the Son of Man (in v.30) seems to be saying that it shall appear "IN THE HEAVEN"... what do you guess that part means?

Do you believe it could have any connection to what was said in Hosea 5:14-6:3, and from the reference point there, being from the time of His ascension and exaltation?... "after two days" and "in the third day"

And from what I've researched of the phrase "and then [kai tote], it never refers to something long after or well-after the thing spoken of prior to the "and then" next thing in the text.

Are you saying that this passage is talking about the events surrounding 70ad, or about the far-future events surrounding His Second Coming to the earth? Just wondering... (having trouble keeping everyone's viewpoints straight in my mind)

Re Hosea - Yes. That is correct.
No - as i said elsewhere (the) great suffering described by Jesus is the period of punishment of the Jews -
close to 2000 years. Jesus is answering the questions the disciples asked him.
When will the Temple be destroyed? When is your 2nd Coming? [When is the end of the age?]
He answers the questions posed. It's not complicated. Only he uses prophetic signposts rather than times and dates,
so people get confused.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"3 Therefore will he give them up, UNTIL the time that she which travaileth [i.e. identifying the 'she'] hath brought forth: then the REMNANT OF his brethren shall return unto the the children of Israel."

*WE* are not this "remnant"... and note the "UNTIL" part

 

[OldSage]

I spent about 3 years listening to weekly "The Bible Answerman" programs from Walter Martin when I lived in S. CA. It gave me an amazingly good insight into the cults, right after I had extracted myself from the Local Church.

The Local Church is not its actual name--Witness Lee, a Chinese gentleman, who escaped Communism in China, founded a denomination that he actually denied was a denomination. He in fact disowned any name for his denomination whatsoever, calling his following the "church in Anaheim," the "church in Las Vegas, " the "church in New York," etc. He thought the church should not have a name and should be one in each city, excluding all denominations.

I got into the group because I had been a student of Watchman Nee, and knew that Witness Lee had been his associate in China. What I didn't know is that Lee had changed from Nee, and had indeed started a new cult!

Walter Martin's organization, Christian Research Institute, sponsored a pamphlet by the Passantinos, who exposed it as a cult. I read it and responded, angrily, by letter to Dr. Walter Martin in 10 pages! Then I proceeded to move from the Pacific NW, due to it raining on my motorcycle relentlessly, and find a home in S. California, close to where Lee ministered and where Stream Ministries was located. Stream was the publishing outfit that published books by both Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.

I chose to live in Anaheim because that's where this "Local Church" was based. But I after a few months became convinced myself that it was indeed a cult. They thought of themselves as superior. Martin's group pointed out that they were modalistic in their theology. Another group, Spiritual Counterfeits Project, out of Berkeley, claimed they were "non-Christian," for which SCP was successfully sued.

So yes, they are Christian, but yes, they are also a cult. To my disappointment, a few years back I heard from Gretchen Passantino, the one who had written that tract against Lee's group for CRI. She and the successor to the Bible Answerman, Hank Hanegraaff had decided the "Local Church" was no longer a cult!

We were emailing about this when she stopped writing. I later saw in the news Gretchen died! So I never got the whole scoop. But I'm absolutely convinced that even though the cult has stopped being modalistic in their theology, they are still a cult! They are still eccentric and elitist. They have a strange spirit, coupled together with any possible genuine spirituality.

This is just a human interest story, but it shows I have a personal interest in cultic thinking. And I empathize with Paul in his concern to deal with a cultic group *within Christianity* that was making a pretty outlandish claim.

But then again, take a look at what Democrats ran on in the last election and won!! Open the borders to the contagious, the terrorists, the gangs. Spend money in the trillions to make future generations laden with debt. Kill our energy industries, except the ones that don't work long term so we are slaves to the Middle East and to Russia.

Outlandish statements can always be rationalized away! See Biden.

It is hard for me to define a cult, or a sect.
What are your definitions?
Maybe this needs a new thread...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I accept after "sleeping" then meet Jesus in heaven.

I take it that you do not believe what 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is saying then??

... that the "dead in Christ shall rise first"... and then once they are bodily resurrected ['to stand again' on the earth], "we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME TIME--G260 - hama] with them..." [at the same time that they will also be CAUGHT UP--this is what "caught up TOGETHER with them" means--"caught up" AT THE SAME TIME]... that is, as a corporate "ONE BODY" caught up at ONE SINGULAR POINT IN TIME... (in our now "glorified" bodies, at that time)... you don't believe that?





[which is entirely distinct from the manner in which Israel will be gathered, per Isa27:12-13 / Matt24:29-31]

 

[OldSage]

Thanks for your opinion, but it's what I think. Take care...

Ah, Ok, i offended you. I feel it is an important passage so worth discussing though

 

[soberxp]

*WE* are not this "remnant"... and note the "UNTIL" part

Your daydream is fly to heaven immediately and never die on earth.

If you're willing to embrace these doctrines, it's your problem

I accept after "sleeping" then meet Jesus in heaven.

If you have wife and children, How about your future sons and daughters, "at The same time"?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If you have wife and children, How about your future sons and daughters, "at The same time"?

"The Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will be "caught up [/snatched]" at ONE POINT IN TIME (as 'ONE BODY'... ONE CORPORATE 'BODY')... and once we are "caught up," we will no longer be physically reproducing / bearing "future" children, IF THAT'S what you mean.

Other than that idea, we are not identified as "the woman" in Rev12 either (the one giving birth/having given birth, in that text and in Micah 5:3--same woman)... in case that's what you meant... (can't really tell)...

 

[soberxp]

"The Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will be "caught up [/snatched]" at ONE POINT IN TIME (as 'ONE BODY'... ONE CORPORATE 'BODY')... and once we are "caught up," we will no longer be physically reproducing / bearing "future" children, IF THAT'S what you mean.

Other than that idea, we are not identified as "the woman" in Rev12 either (the one giving birth/having given birth, in that text and in Micah 5:3--same woman)... in case that's what you meant... (can't really tell)...

That is your problem, not mine.

your flesh body still on earth, but your spiritual body in heaven, it's beyond Time cuz The power of God.that can be at The same time.

that is what The women means about spiritual things

 

[FreeGrace2]

Maybe because the beast and the antichrist are not the same

OK then. Can you explain who each is from Scripture? Thanks.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@soberxp ... so you think that the "caught up [/snatched] TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME TIME--G260 - bama] with [G4862] them [that is, WHEN THEY ALSO are "caught up / snatched"]... TO THE MEETING [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" (after the "dead in Christ" will have already experienced the "shall RISE FIRST" thing [distinct from the "caught UP/snatched TOGETHER/AT THE SAME TIME" thing]) has already happened? (but "spiritually"--instead of "physically," which is what the "shall rise first" actually speaks to--i.e. to be "resurrected" bodily). Your viewpoint is not consistent with what the text actually tells us, which is "caught up / snatched TOGETHER / AT THE SAME TIME with [G4862] them..."

 

[soberxp]

@soberxp ... so you think that the "caught up [/snatched] TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME TIME--G260 - bama] with [G4862] them [that is, WHEN THEY ALSO are "caught up / snatched"]... TO THE MEETING [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" (after the "dead in Christ" will have already done the "shall RISE FIRST" thing [distinct from the "caught UP/snatched TOGETHER/AT THE SAME TIME" thing]) has already happened? (but "spiritually"--instead of "physically," which is what the "shall rise first" actually speaks to--i.e. to be "resurrected" bodily)

Why not?This is God's goal and purpose, and it must happen.But how does it happen, 1 Corinthians 2:13

 

[Mem]

While these most interesting conversations continue, the rest of us could play "Spot the Fallacy" and brush up on our speech and debate skills , perhaps yes ?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Why not?This is God's goal and purpose, and it must happen.But how does it happen, 1 Corinthians 2:13

Jesus' Own physical body is the prototype, so to speak... Do you believe He showed Himself "physically / bodily" [/tangibly] after His Resurrection (Luke 24:39 "...for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as ye see Me having..." [which is what He said to them way later that same evening / same day as His resurrection, per v.33,36a])...

...and do you not see a distinction between the following two texts:


1 John 4:2-3a -
" 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ having come [perfect participle] in flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not of God, and this is that of the antichrist, [...]"


2 John 1:7 -

"7 For many deceivers have entered into the world, those not confessing Jesus Christ coming [present participle] in flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."



Do you see any distinction between the phrases:

--"[JC] having come [perfect participle] in flesh"; and

--"[JC] coming [present participle] in flesh"

[compare this "coming [present participle]" to that of same, found in 1Th1:10, for example]

 

[OldSage]

OK then. Can you explain who each is from Scripture? Thanks.

The AC is the uprooting horn. There are several beasts, but they are not the little horn. Daniel explains the fate of the little horn. So does Paul.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I see the individual aspect OF "the Beast [Rev13:1]" as being the "MOUTH" (i.e. individual spokes-person, so to speak... aka the AC... man of sin... the prince "THAT SHALL COME"... and all the other terms that this individual person is called... and is DESCRIBED [outwardly] in Dan7:20c...).



I happen to agree with @FreeGrace2 on the one particular point, where he shows the "IT" that is "taken away" (speaking of his dominion... according to the wording of v.26... That's how I see it anyway...)

 

[soberxp]

Jesus' Own physical body is the prototype, so to speak... Do you believe He showed Himself "physically / bodily" [/tangibly] after His Resurrection (Luke 24:39 "...for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as ye see Me having..." [which is what He said to them way later that same evening / same day as His resurrection, per v.33,36a])...

...and do you not see a distinction between the following two texts:


1 John 4:2-3a -
" 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ having come [perfect participle] in flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not of God, and this is that of the antichrist, [...]"


2 John 1:7 -

"7 For many deceivers have entered into the world, those not confessing Jesus Christ coming [present participle] in flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."



Do you see any distinction between the phrases:

--"[JC] having come [perfect participle] in flesh"; and

--"[JC] coming [present participle] in flesh"

[compare this "coming [present participle]" to that of same, found in 1Th1:10, for example]

This is nothing to do with her seed.

 

[VCO]

Your daydream is fly to heaven immediately and never die on earth.

If you're willing to embrace these doctrines, it's your problem. I don't want to explain these. I accept after "sleeping" then meet Jesus in heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:7-8 (NKJV)
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.


AMEN, PRAISE THE LORD, EVEN SO, Come Lord JESUS.

 

[soberxp]

2 Corinthians 5:7-8 (NKJV)
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.


AMEN, PRAISE THE LORD, EVEN SO, Come Lord JESUS.

He has come.
Amen

 

[FreeGrace2]

The AC is the uprooting horn. There are several beasts, but they are not the little horn. Daniel explains the fate of the little horn. So does Paul.

OK, thanks. Now, could you explain what the "uprooting horn" does and the verses? There are 2 beasts, per Rev 13.

Could you point me to the Daniel text re: rate of little horn, and Paul's text?

Again, thanks.