50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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TheDivineWatermark

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^ ...consistent with this passage...

Rev1:5-6 -

Berean Literal Bible
"and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To the One loving us and releasing us from our sins through His blood, and He has made us a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion to the ages of the ages. Amen."

King James Bible
"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."
 

randyk

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Okay... (re: v.2) are you saying "these errant brothers" were claiming that "Christ had come to them" LITERALLY/PHYSICALLY... or do you mean they were claiming that "Christ had come to them" in some kind of vision-like way, or in some kind of "spiritual experience"-type way, therefore same goes for the "rapture" they claimed had also already occurred (according to your viewpoint) but not in any kind of "literal / physical" way, only in one of these other ways?
I don't know. This group apparently thought that Jesus had arrived, in some way, in their group. Tell me how the JWs think things like that? Tell me how Christians believe in realized eschatology?

On another note, I am unsure of why I am not permitted to reach back anywhere outside of the immediate context in order to ascertain the meaning of the phrase that false conveyors could purport ('that the day of the Lord is already here'), and what all that phrase "the DOTL" entails... but that it is perfectly fine for you to do so regarding the other phrases in the context (like "man of sin" which isn't even identical to other texts... tho we agree they speak of the same person)... especially when one of the so-called "rules of interpretation" is to "first look at the way an author [in Scripture] uses the same phrase elsewhere in THEIR own writings, before going outside of that author's use of a word to see how *other* authors [in Scripture] have used that same word..." but when I point out what Paul had said regarding this phrase in just as near-ago as his first letter to these same people, I'm scolded for reaching "outside of the CONTEXT"... but no one else has any problem with their *own* doing of the same with the word in v.3 "apostasia" when they reach over to Acts 21:21 and come back to inject "FROM THE FAITH" into this word that actually means "departure"... iow, the word itself does not mean "a departure FROM MOSES" here in 2Th2. ;)
You are allowed to go outside of the context except when the immediate context is needed to divine how it is *being applied in that context.* For example, you may find a technical word or phrase--say "the Son of Man coming with the clouds," and find where that term originates in Dan 7. Then, you may go to Dan 7 and show the evolution of this idea all the way to Paul's teaching in 2 The2. Or, even better, if Jesus referenced Daniel, then you may look for the place in Daniel that Jesus was referring to.

But if the phrase "Son of Man" is being used differently in the immediate context, different from how it was used in Dan 7, then you may *not* go to Dan 7. For example, in Luke 17, some of the "days of the Son of Man" are referenced, and they are not being used in an eschatological framework in the point Jesus is making there. We should use the immediate context to see how the phrase is being used. But we may trace the origins and evolution of the use of the phrase.


[I personally CONNECT Joel 2:31's "moon into blood, BEFORE the GREAT..." (before "THE GREAT" aspect OF the DOTL, not before it in its ENTIRETY) with Rev6:12's "moon became as blood" at the 6th Seal, in the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period, aka early in the 7-yr trib]
Another, but good subject. I'll leave it for later, since the forum has been down, and I'm well behind the conversation.
 

randyk

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I think you and I have discussed the point above, that I've bolded and underlined... and where I had said (along these lines):

--the phrase "the last day of the age" [as in, "24-hr kind of day"] is not a biblical phrase/concept (there's no passage that uses such a phrase as "the last day of the age" or to mean "the last 24-hr day" [i.e. referring to the 24-hr day of His return Rev19])

--the [distinct] phrase "the last day" refers to the third (of THREE) like in the phrases found in Hosea 5:14-6:3 - "after TWO DAYS," and "IN the THIRD DAY" (neither referring to "singular 24-hr day" type of "days")--and that John 6:39 is speaking of "THINGS," whereas 6:40 is speaking of "PERSONS" (each being what will be raised up "IN THE LAST DAY" aka "FOR the MK age"...)

--the [distinct] phrase "the END [singular] of the AGE [singular]" refers to something also entirely distinct from that of "this present age [singular]"... and it ("the END of the AGE") instead covers the future Trib years that LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age, which MK age Jesus had referred to as (and His disciples correctly understood as) "the age [singular] to come" (aka the earthly MK age);

--I think I had another point regarding this... but I'm outta gas for the night... see y'all tomorrow, Lord willing... :D 'night!
I appreciate the explanations. You sound like a contortionist, but thanks anyway. At least you address the subject. We may very well have dealt with this before. But the "last day" still *sounds* like the last 24-hour day of the age to me.

The "end of the age" certainly can cover a vast amount of time and circumstance, but I think it depends on the subject matter. In the case of 2 Thes 2, I don't believe the coming of Jesus for the Church can possibly refer to anything but a literal 24- hour day.
 

randyk

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Lol

That is a grand canyon leap to say they thought the rapture happened, but no believers were missing.

Oh brother...face palm
Thanks for raising the point--a legitimate point. My thought is that this cultic Christian group re-defined the meaning of "Christ's Coming for the Church." The probably had a different sense of what it meant for Christ to have come to them, much like the JWs do. Didn't you know that the JWs comprise God's Kingdom now? ;)
 

randyk

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A few posts back you were insisting on context.

Yet the context of the PERCEPTION of the early church was a destroyed and scattered israel.

They were decieved by thinking it was COMPLETELY OVER for israel.

FF to 1947-1948. Israel becomes a nation once again.

Lets see......context?

Those dead men you invoke were decieved.
At this late hour we are able to see WHAT THEY COULD NOT.

Darby was ahead of the game.

Big time
Not exactly. The Early Church initially believed in the restoration of Israel at the end. Paul said it, and some of the Early Church Fathers said it. Faith in Israel's restoration gradually dwindled until it completely faded away, Replacement Theology taking its place.

Darby did do us a great service in helping to restore confidence that there is yet ahead a new age for national Israel. I don't criticize him at all for that!
 

randyk

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Okay, so you're saying that "23 mss say 'US'--ZERO mss say 'THEM'"... and the 24 elders are saying "...hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out-of EVERY kindred/tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation" ... and that supposedly is proof they are "angels"? (not sure where else in scripture angels are called "elders" either...)

I really must disagree, here.
Yes, the manuscripts can copy manuscripts' errors. The fact is, we have two options, to include "us" or to exclude "us." Looking at the context of the Revelation, with angels in heaven, I believe these 24 elders have to be angels. There is no reason for people to be in heaven at that point, unless they are dead spirits. That's why I believe they're angels. The 4 Living Creatures look like strange beasts as well, but I don't believe they're actual beasts. Rather, I believe they're angels, as they were identified in the OT Scriptures. And so, I think they are all angels--no humans at all. This is God the Father, Christ the Son, the angels and John seeing the entire vision.
 

cv5

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Sounds preterist.
You saying the gt has come and gone since the ac requires worship and a mark in the hand or forehead?
Yes I'm pretty sure he's a preterist. The poor guy is tragically ignorant of the Scripture. He doesn't understand the connection between the man of sin and the seven year tribulation? I mean how is that even possible........o_O

The other guy Randy "doesn't understand" the DOTL? :oops: How could you not understand one of THE most important biblical doctrines? A seminal doctrine that is inextricably tied to the Second Coming.

It is no wonder they have absolutely no idea what Paul is talking about in 2Thessalonians 2. Those two voids of knowledge ALONE are enough to scuttle any possible hope of correct exegesis.

Now I'm hearing this gibberish about the Temple and how Paul is discussing this with the Thessalonians. How in the world could someone conjure that out of the text? I mean are these people getting hermeneutics lessons out of a cracker jack box????.......:rolleyes:
 

randyk

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Okay, so you're saying that "23 mss say 'US'--ZERO mss say 'THEM'"... and the 24 elders are saying "...hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out-of EVERY kindred/tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation" ... and that supposedly is proof they are "angels"? (not sure where else in scripture angels are called "elders" either...)

I really must disagree, here.
You might check out this article HERE -- it basically contradicts what you are trying to prove. Its claim is that the preponderance of the evidence stands not behind the "us" version, but rather behind the "them" version.
 

cv5

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Yes, the manuscripts can copy manuscripts' errors. The fact is, we have two options, to include "us" or to exclude "us." Looking at the context of the Revelation, with angels in heaven, I believe these 24 elders have to be angels. There is no reason for people to be in heaven at that point, unless they are dead spirits. That's why I believe they're angels. The 4 Living Creatures look like strange beasts as well, but I don't believe they're actual beasts. Rather, I believe they're angels, as they were identified in the OT Scriptures. And so, I think they are all angels--no humans at all. This is God the Father, Christ the Son, the angels and John seeing the entire vision.
23 manuscripts are wrong and you're right? Despite what the text clearly states? THAT'S your hermeneutic principle?

That is absolutely outrageous man. See if your seminary professor let's that hermeneutic principle of yours fly.....
 

randyk

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23 manuscripts are wrong and you're right? Despite what the text clearly states? THAT'S your hermeneutic principle?

That is absolutely outrageous man. See if your seminary professor let's that hermeneutic principle of yours fly.....
Here is one messenger that disagrees with you: CLICK
"The question of which reading is correct is quickly solved by examining the support of the manuscripts. First, by far, most of the majority of the witnesses testify to “them.” "
 

cv5

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You might check out this article HERE -- it basically contradicts what you are trying to prove. Its claim is that the preponderance of the evidence stands not behind the "us" version, but rather behind the "them" version.
Let me get you up to speed on this buddy. There are 95 manuscripts of Revelation available.
BUT only 24 contain Rev 5:9-10!
And 23 of these 24 use the term "US"....


The article you posted is simply unbiblical propaganda rubbish. The legitimate serious Bible student has heard that Revelation manuscript song and dance many times...and rightly divides truth from fiction.
 

cv5

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Here is one messenger that disagrees with you: CLICK
"The question of which reading is correct is quickly solved by examining the support of the manuscripts. First, by far, most of the majority of the witnesses testify to “them.” "
It's not me that's looking like a deceiver around here. And thank God for that....
 

VCO

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^ ...consistent with this passage...

Rev1:5-6 -

Berean Literal Bible
"and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To the One loving us and releasing us from our sins through His blood, and He has made us a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion to the ages of the ages. Amen."

King James Bible
"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

1623215562455.png

Also that I noticed in the video, that may not have been pointed OUT; that is for CERTAIN, gave us a definitive time frame.
AND IT IS PRE-TRIB.

That is not only BEFORE HIS WRATH begins in Chapter 6, but put the Rapture BEFORE the LAMB is the only one worthy to open the SEALS.

So it is before the first seal is opened, before Chapter 6:16-17, and way before the TRUMPET JUDGEMENTS, PERIOD!

The US refers to the ASSEMBLY that JESUS CHRIST has Built, both O.T. Assembly and the N.T. Assembly now called the CHURCH, are already in HEAVEN, the TWO Folds became ONE FLOCK at the RAPTURE, which includes the 24 Elders.

Revelation 5:1-14 (YLT)
1 And I saw upon the right hand of Him who is sitting upon the throne a scroll, written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals;
2 and I saw a strong messenger crying with a great voice, `Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose the seals of it?'
3 and no one was able in the heaven, nor upon the earth, nor under the earth, to open the scroll, nor to behold it.
4 And I was weeping much, because no one was found worthy to open and to read the scroll, nor to behold it,
5 and one of the elders saith to me, `Weep not; lo, overcome did the Lion, who is of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, to open the scroll, and to loose the seven seals of it;
6 and I saw, and lo, in the midst of the throne, and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb hath stood as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of God, which are sent to all the earth,
7 and he came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who is sitting upon the throne.
8 And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, having each one harps and golden vials full of perfumes, which are the prayers of the saints,
9 and they sing a new song, saying, `Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because thou wast slain, and didst redeem us to God in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

10 and didst make us to our God kings and priests, and we shall reign upon the earth.'
11 And I saw, and I heard the voice of many messengers round the throne, and the living creatures, and the elders--and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands--
12 saying with a great voice, `Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive the power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing!'
13 and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, `To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might--to the ages of the ages!'
14 and the four living creatures said, `Amen!' and the twenty-four elders fell down and they bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages.

John 10:14-16 (YLT)
14 `I am the good shepherd, and I know my sheep, and am known by mine,
15 according as the Father doth know me, and I know the Father, and my life I lay down for the sheep,
16
and other sheep {N.T. Fold} I have that are not of this fold{Last of the O.T. Fold} , these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock {At the RAPTURE} --one shepherd.


Most Christians do not know that JESUS never used the word CHURCH in HIS entire life here on earth. AND neither did the disciples.
So what did HE call us ? ? ? HE called us HIS ASSEMBLY, the same thing HE called true believers of the Old Testament.


Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

The word CHURCH was not added to the BIBLE until, after the Believers became know as CHRISTIANS, after the Assembly of Believers got started in Antioch, probably near the turn of the First Century.



QUOTE:
How did followers of Jesus come
to be called Christians?

Apparently, Antioch, the capital of the Roman province of Syria (now within the region of Antakya, Turkey), was the location where "Christian" was first associated with early believers. "And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch" (Acts 11:26).

Obviously, the term is identified with the idea of being a follower of Jesus Christ. In classical times the followers of a leader would identify themselves by a descriptive extension to their leader's name (ianus). Pompey's troops were called Pompeiani, and Caesar's were referred to as, Caesariani. The Christianus (of Latin origin, and hellenized), was similarly viewed as the descriptive term of the followers of Christ.¹

However, Theophilus of Antioch, writing about 170 A.D. claimed that the term "Christian" was used, not as much because of association with Jesus, but because it was derived from the Greek word for oil, CHRISM, which means anointed — and "the followers of Jesus appeared to be anointed with the Spirit."² Chrism is also the Greek word used for Christ, and means anointed one.

¹ The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible
² Deeper Experiences of Famous Christians, James Gilchrist Lawson
https://www.victorious.org/cbook/chur60-called-christians
:END QUOTE.

Like Paul Harvey used to say:
"NOW, . . . . . . You know the REST of the Story."
 
Oct 23, 2020
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Quoting 1 Thes 4.14-17 doesn't make my position untenable. I didn't even say that the Holy Spirit was the Lord's 2nd Coming, so you completely misrepresent my position. I hypothesized that a cultic group may have considered the Spirit of God in their midst indicated Christ had come *through them!*

My position is that a cultic group of Christians began to declare that they were the 2nd Coming of Jesus to the Church. They represented the beginning of God's Kingdom on earth.

Jesus had warned about this, so it is hardly "untenable!" Jesus said that if some come saying they are the Christ, you shouldn't follow them. False representations of the eschatological Kingdom will happen on earth, and should be ignored or exposed.

The power of the Kingdom to completely defeat Satan will not come until Christ actually comes. And until then we are to shore ourselves up to endure some defeats and experience some suffering.

It won't all come to an end until Antichrist culminates this satanic world in his own revelation and Christ comes to defeat him. In other words, it only ends when it actually ends. Beware of false claims of "God's power" in the present realm until that time. We can't allow ourselves to fall asleep while dangerous conditions continue to exist.
Well I am glad you have clarified that.

I think it makes it clear that your idea is errant (untenable) in the context of the Church at Thessalonika,
since Paul had already spent time there teaching them, and specifically he has already explained to them the
substantive details of Jesus' 2nd Coming. They are not vulnerable little ingenues.

1 Thess 4: 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

They fully understood that the 2nd coming entailed the Church being taken up to the Lord, so why would
they be thinking that a 'cult' as you put it, clearly claiming to be the incarnation of God's Kingdom on earth,
meant that the 2nd coming had occurred? You are making no sense here. Nowhere in Paul's letter does he refer to
this supposed group, nowhere do we get the sense that the Church in Thessalonika is going through the paroxysms of
a crisis of unimaginable proportions - which is what your scenario suggests. You are suggesting that a fringe group
somewhere is claiming that the 2nd coming has already happened, and that, totally contrary to what Paul has already taught,
the believers have remained on earth, and now as a consequence, the Thessalonikan Church is in a state of existential
faith crisis, because for some reason they are seduced by this hoax. But that flies in the face of what Paul says:

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

So your thesis is dead Randy. (It happens.)

I've told you what Paul means in 2 Thessalonians. I am not going to repeat it. It is not that complex.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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"""30 “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. (The Antichrist will be toasted by the Church; the Jews will recognize Christ)"""

Where is this in the bible?
You probably don't really understand what Jesus meant here. it is not obvious.

'then shall appear' is the translation of the Greek word 'phaino' - meaning to appear to the mind, to shine brightly

What Jesus is talking about here is critical, so pay close attention.

The disciples asked for the sign of his coming, and this is the sign he gave.
Well this is the crux of the matter. The sign that was contested and impugned was the sign of Jonah -
namely the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.

Effectively Jesus is saying that when his resurrection is 'phaino' (-ed), is understood by the Jews,
is seen brightly (i.e. not through the vail), this is the sign that he will return.
Basically the wholesale ingathering of the Jews is the sign of Jesus' imminent return.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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When Paul said that the AC would be destroyed by the brightness
of Jesus's coming, the same word is being used here.

epipháneia is from the root word phaino (epi-phaino)

So in effect it is the revelation (epiphany) to the Jews that Jesus is Lord
(resurrected and in heaven ) that destroys the AC system.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Let me get you up to speed on this buddy. There are 95 manuscripts of Revelation available.
BUT only 24 contain Rev 5:9-10!
And 23 of these 24 use the term "US"....
Right... that's essentially the point he's making in that fairly brief 9:15-min clip of video...

... but let's not leave out the other point he makes, about how the other 1 manuscript leaves that word BLANK / UNTRANSLATED (that one being the Codex Alexandrinus). That is, none show to be saying "them" in v.9

(... v.10 is the one having variant readings)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Effectively Jesus is saying that when his resurrection is 'phaino' (-ed), is understood by the Jews,
is seen brightly (i.e. not through the vail), this is the sign that he will return.
Basically the wholesale ingathering of the Jews is the sign of Jesus' imminent return.
I'm just curious... how do you explain that this "sign" of the Son of Man (in v.30) seems to be saying that it shall appear "IN THE HEAVEN"... what do you guess that part means?

Do you believe it could have any connection to what was said in Hosea 5:14-6:3, and from the reference point there, being from the time of His ascension and exaltation?... "after two days" and "in the third day"

And from what I've researched of the phrase "and then [kai tote], it never refers to something long after or well-after the thing spoken of prior to the "and then" next thing in the text.

Are you saying that this passage is talking about the events surrounding 70ad, or about the far-future events surrounding His Second Coming to the earth? Just wondering... (having trouble keeping everyone's viewpoints straight in my mind)
 
Oct 23, 2020
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I'm just curious... how do you explain that this "sign" of the Son of Man (in v.30) seems to be saying that it shall appear "IN THE HEAVEN"... what do you guess that part means?

Do you believe it could have any connection to what was said in Hosea 5:14-6:3, and from the reference point there, being from the time of His ascension and exaltation?... "after two days" and "in the third day"

And from what I've researched of the phrase "and then [kai tote], it never refers to something long after or well-after the thing spoken of prior to the "and then" next thing in the text.

Are you saying that this passage is talking about the events surrounding 70ad, or about the far-future events surrounding His Second Coming to the earth? Just wondering... (having trouble keeping everyone's viewpoints straight in my mind)
The Olivet Q&A is complex.
The questions are about the destruction of the Temple, the End of The Age and Jesus's Parousia - 2nd coming.
It seems like things were confused in the disciples' minds.

Jesus's answer is predominantly about AD70. In verse 27 he shifts focus

.............So up to here we've been talking about geo-localized events - now shift of focus.............
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(The 2nd coming is not a geo-localized event; it is a global event)
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(The 2nd coming is not a geo-localized event; it will not happen at Jerusalem, where the carcase and the vultures have all converged - again Jesus reinforces the death trap that is Jerusalem )
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days
(those days - this refers to the entire period of tribulation of the Jews, which is also called the Time Of The Gentiles by Luke and is just under 2000 years long: it is not just the destruction but also the diaspora)
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(*)
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
(**)
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
(***)
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[ *, **, *** ] I've explained these already but will try again when I have some energy
 
Jan 31, 2021
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It's not me that's looking like a deceiver around here. And thank God for that....
Well, let's take a look at that claim.

You believe that Jesus will take all resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

No verse in the Bible says this.

So, are you a deceiver, or just one of the deceived? It's one or the other.