50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Absolutely]

you totally don't understand what I said,and
You're just saying you're saved, but the mind of Christ is to save all .

No we can all see that lot was removed.
He did not stay and be saved.

 

[Absolutely]

You are stealing concept.
COWARDS is cowards.
so be it.
but Jesus is not, he dead for all, also the apostles and the disciples dead for all.

So you are saying baby Jesus left and was removed TO EGYPT as a coward.
The believers left jerusalem prior to the ad 70 siege were cowards
Elijah was a coward
And lot was a coward.

Ok.

 

[Absolutely]

God is not under disenfranchisement.

People do that to his word.

Actually pervert his word to make removing his people as evil.

Wow

 

[soberxp]

No we can all see that lot was removed.
He did not stay and be saved.

he didn't understand what I said. he thought I was meaning he not be saved,
I said God will save some body else also that he will crying to God why God save these unbelievers.

 

[soberxp]

So you are saying baby Jesus left and was removed TO EGYPT as a coward.
The believers left jerusalem prior to the ad 70 siege were cowards
Elijah was a coward
And lot was a coward.

Ok.

I didn't say this.....so I don't need to answer you.

they are these ,not all we sleep,but not one of us

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

What you just quoted from the 6th Seal closely matches what Jesus said would happen after the tribulation:
Matthew 24:29
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
A deeper study reveals that Jesus was also quoting Isaiah here:
Isaiah 13:9-13
9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isaiah 34:4
4All the stars of heaven will be dissolved.
The skies will be rolled up like a scroll,
and all their stars will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like foliage from the fig tree.

And Joel:

Joel 2:10
10Before them the earth quakes;
the heavens tremble.
The sun and moon grow dark,

All elements that are present between Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 are in Isaiah. This isn't an accident as the New Testament writers would have been very familiar with this sort of apocalyptic language: stars, sun, moon, heavens trembling and rolling up like a scroll, an earthquake, and even reference to the fig tree.

Let the reader notice...

...at the opening of VCO's Post, he quoted from Revelation 6:12 "moon became as blood" which corresponds with Joel 2:31's "moon into blood, BEFORE the GREAT..." (BEFORE the "GREAT" ASPECT OF IT [note: not before the DOTL in its ENTIRETY]);



...but the verses that Runningman provided (in quote above) do not correspond, as he selected the verses corresponding (instead) with:
"moon shall not give her light" (Matt24:21-31), and that is "AFTER the tribulation of those days" (which is the SAME as saying AFTER the "GREAT" ASPECT OF IT), which not only is DESCRIBING this in a very distinct way, but is shown to occur at completely distinct time-slots.




So, NO... these do NOT "closely match"... unless one is totally colorblind, and completely disregards the "timing" clues provided in some of the verses...

(Joel 2:31 = Rev6:12... the others DO NOT)

 

[Runningman]

Let the reader notice...

...at the opening of VCO's Post, he quoted from Revelation 6:12 "moon became as blood" which corresponds with Joel 2:31's "moon into blood, BEFORE the GREAT..." (BEFORE the "GREAT" ASPECT OF IT [note: not before the DOTL in its ENTIRETY]);



...but the verses that Runningman provided (in quote above) do not correspond, as he selected the verses corresponding (instead) with:
"moon shall not give her light" (Matt24:21-31), and that is "AFTER the tribulation of those days" (which is the SAME as saying AFTER the "GREAT" ASPECT OF IT), which not only is DESCRIBING this in a very distinct way, but is shown to occur at completely distinct time-slots.




So, NO... these do NOT "closely match"... unless one is totally colorblind, and completely disregards the "timing" clues provided in some of the verses...

(Joel 2:31 = Rev6:12... the others DO NOT)

Let the reader notice that they are talking about the same thing. What Jesus said would happen immediately after the tribulation has a direct correlation to what is in the 6th seal. Nothing you just posted undoes that nor can it. It's just another one of the myriad proofs that debunk the pre-trib rapture.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And, yes - that means Revelation 11:2 is referring to 1260 years while Revelation 11:3 is referring to 1260 days.

I disagree that "42 months" (Rev11:2) equals "1260 years"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Let the reader notice that they are talking about the same thing. What Jesus said would happen immediately after the tribulation has a direct correlation to what is in the 6th seal. Nothing you just posted undoes that nor can it. It's just another one of the myriad proofs that debunk the pre-trib rapture.

"moon into blood" / "moon became as blood" (BEFORE the GREAT aspect) does NOT equal "moon shall not give her light" (AFTER the GREAT aspect)... not to mention that the SEALS are equivalent to "the BEGINNING of birth pangs" at the EARLY part of the 7 years (i.e. "BEFORE the GREAT aspect)... but believe as you wish.

I totally disagree.





[what comes sequentially after "the BEGINNING of birth pangs," is MANY MORE "birth pangs" that will follow on from those "BEGINNING of birth pangs..." they don't END with "the BEGINNING OF" them... Those are EARLY in the Trib years, not "after" them]

 

[Runningman]

"moon into blood" / "moon became as blood" (BEFORE the GREAT aspect) does NOT equal "moon shall not give her light" (AFTER the GREAT aspect)... not to mention that the SEALS are equivalent to "the BEGINNING of birth pangs" at the EARLY part of the 7 years (i.e. "BEFORE the GREAT aspect)... but believe as you wish.

I totally disagree.





[what comes sequentially after "the BEGINNING of birth pangs," is MANY MORE "birth pangs" that will follow on from those "BEGINNING of birth pangs..." they don't END with "the BEGINNING OF" them... Those are EARLY in the Trib years, not "after" them]

Have you ever seen a lunar eclipse? The moon turns reddish and the light it reflects is greatly reduced. That's what this is describing. There will be a solar eclipse as well; the Sun will look black.

Jesus gave us a clue about what happens before His return, not just one, or two, or three, but four. If you still cannot see it after being shown the verses then it isn't for you to understand yet.

Meanwhile, I'll be understanding Revelation the way the way it's obviously meant to be understood.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

AandW said:
Let's use the very words of Christ!
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Paul's, or Christ's; they are saying the very same thing!!

In the same way that Jesus covers a SPANS of time, in Matthew 24... Paul does also, in his chpts 1&2 of 2Thess (even in chpt 2, Paul is covering a SPANS of time, not merely a singular point in time);

...and in 1Th5:2-3 Paul refers to the INITIAL "birth pang [singular]" that COMES UPON a woman... and says that is what the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period will be like (same "beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus Himself had spoken of--and which are equivalent to the SEALS of Rev6 at the START of the 7-yr period, aka the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 refers to... i.e. the future [i.e. 7-yr Trib] aspects of that Book).



In Paul's 2Th2, he covers more than one point in time... he covers the BEGINNING of the 7 yrs, the MIDDLE of the 7 yrs, AND the END of the 7 yrs (not to mention what immediately PRECEDES the 7-yrs), in the SAME way that other prophetic sections of Scripture do

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ to go along with the point I make in that post ^ , here are a cpl other posts I'd made on that Subject ("BEGINNING" of the 7 yrs, "MIDDLE" of the 7 yrs, "END" of the 7 yrs... and Paul covering all three aspects in his 2Th2 passage, same as other Scriptures do...):


Post #425 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/end-times-timeline.190217/post-4164830


Post #158 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/rapture-top-dogs-admit-no-proof-exists.190008/post-4156023




[if anyone's interested, there's another connection in this SAME way... involving Dan12 etc]

 

[FreeGrace2]

TMS said:
If God can cause the last plague to not effect those that obeyed Him in Egypt. He can cause the last plagues to not hurt His faithful. We can go through the trouble with Jesus, we don't need to be taken away.

He took them away before

Where did He take away anyone before?

TMS's point is backed up with Scripture. A pretrib rapture is not.

The 2 escape verses.

Who is escaping? And did either of them leave the earth?

Eternally cannonized in the WORD OF GOD.

oh yeah

One who has no Scriptural backing for his views should not presume so much.

 

[FreeGrace2]

and when he answered about being Caught Up, it has turned into the biggest false Doctrine ever taught to the followers of Almighty God. It's literally mind boggling how gullible some truthfully are.

Agree totally

To be clear, you accept that "caught up" means 'rapture'.

That postrib rapture doctrine as well as no rapture doctrine have no biblical basis.

Yet, BOTH verses that have "caught up" are Second Advent verses. Totallyl biblically based.

No verses.

This is disconnected from reality. Really.

Pretrib rapture is solid bible and easily defended as i am sure you have seen in this thread

Easily??? Seriously??? You have zero verses that describe Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers. That isn't "solid". That's just unreality. Really.

No matter how many times you repeat it, won't make it true. Ever.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No we can all see that lot was removed.
He did not stay and be saved.

This is ridiculous, comparing Lot to a pretrib rapture.

Lot walked on his 2 feet to the mountain and cave. How does that compare with Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven? Which, btw, you have zero verses for.

So you are comparing an event where humans being walked ON THEIR OWN POWER to avoid God's wrath on S & G with an event where by Jesus' power humans are taken to heaven. Nope. Not even close.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God is not under disenfranchisement.

People do that to his word.

Actually pervert his word to make removing his people as evil.

Wow

No, it's not "evil" to make that claim. It's just totally unbiblical, since there are no verses that describe a pretrib rapture. That's all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In the same way that Jesus covers a SPANS of time, in Matthew 24... Paul does also, in his chpts 1&2 of 2Thess (even in chpt 2, Paul is covering a SPANS of time, not merely a singular point in time);

Wrong. In 2Thess 2:1-3 Paul is specifically speaking of a single event, which is the "coming of our Lord" which will occur on a SINGLE DAY, also with "our being gathered up to Him" when He comes. And v.3 says "THAT DAY". He is NOT referring to a span of time.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Wrong. In 2Thess 2:1-3 Paul is specifically speaking of a single event, which is the "coming of our Lord" which will occur on a SINGLE DAY, also with "our being gathered up to Him" when He comes.

Read carefully. I said "in chapter 2" (the chapter)

And v.3 says "THAT DAY". He is NOT referring to a span of time.

V.3 does not have the words "that day" (recall, they are in italics in some versions, indicating that they are added--IOW, not present in the TEXT in the Greek); however, v.3 does have the negation, referring specifically to the Subject of v.2, which DOES speak of a "spans of time" that it was claimed to be "ALREADY HERE / ALREADY PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]".

The phrase "the DOTL" speaks of an earthly-located time-period... as you know... and 1Th5:2-3 tells of its ARRIVAL... which is LIKE the INITIAL "birth pang [singular]" that COMES UPON and woman... of the ones Jesus Himself spoke of, which are also parallel the SEALS at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; Rev1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c]" time period (i.e. 7-yr Trib, so at the START of that), in every way consistent...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ also... the man of sin's ARRIVAL v.9a is not at the same time as his SITTETH thing in v.4, nor is it the same time as when the Lord SHALL DESTROY him v.8b... (ALL of this from start to finish SPANS those 7 yrs, just as in all other passages covering this Subject--as I demonstrated at those links to past posts... and there's more not in those posts)

 

[VCO]

Let the reader notice...

...at the opening of VCO's Post, he quoted from Revelation 6:12 "moon became as blood" which corresponds with Joel 2:31's "moon into blood, BEFORE the GREAT..." (BEFORE the "GREAT" ASPECT OF IT [note: not before the DOTL in its ENTIRETY]);



...but the verses that Runningman provided (in quote above) do not correspond, as he selected the verses corresponding (instead) with:
"moon shall not give her light" (Matt24:21-31), and that is "AFTER the tribulation of those days" (which is the SAME as saying AFTER the "GREAT" ASPECT OF IT), which not only is DESCRIBING this in a very distinct way, but is shown to occur at completely distinct time-slots.




So, NO... these do NOT "closely match"... unless one is totally colorblind, and completely disregards the "timing" clues provided in some of the verses...

(Joel 2:31 = Rev6:12... the others DO NOT)

ONE is how it appeared in it's early stages, and Mat 24:21-31 is how it appeared much later on. SO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN ? ? ?
The Sun is RUNNING OUT OF FUEL, period. That IS NOT A CONTRADICTION, how ridiculous is your conclusion.

Can the CREATOR of the UNIVERSE, create enough fuel to replenish the Sun for another 1000 years? YES HE CAN.