Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??

[Dino246]

Your 'factors' are true, but not completely accurate. The doctrine you're defending rejects the LAW and while you are making an honest effort to subtract the LAW while substituting Spirit, you've missed the mark. LAW and GRACE (spirit) work together unto redemption, not separately.

Factor this;

Jews celebrate the giving of the LAW by God to Moses during the feast of Shavout.
Gentiles celebrate the giving of the HOLY SPIRIT/Grace during Pentacost.

BOTH occur on the same calendar day.

This is no coincidence. God is saying something very specific about the interaction of LAW & GRACE.

While your posts on LAW and SPIRIT (Ruach HaKodesh) are true, they aren't exactly accurate either. The combination of the two, as documented in Holy Writ is the essence of God's plan of Redemption.

The LAW points us to a humble petition unto God for forgiveness and salvation.
The SPIRIT of Christ enters the petitioner to begin the work of sanctification.
so that....
The believer may please God by living according to the LAW.

I've been accused of being a Judaiser, but let me be perfectly clear on this. I'm not suggesting Jewish tradition can save. I am stating Christian tradition cannot save either.

Today the post protestant church, by way of rejecting God's LAW, has persuaded itself that its own traditions and rule are sufficient to save. They won't. Puffed up by their own religious hubris, Christians can only see their own false doctrine and even refuse in many cases to even read the Tanakh (Old Testament). Neither do they know or understand the difference between Old and New Testament.

Easter bunnies and Santa Clauses and Nativity sets do not serve to save anybody except perhaps the bank accounts of businesses that sell that rubbish to the public.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Regarding the law, read Acts 15, Galatians, and Hebrews, especially chapter 8.

Christians are not under the Law. The Law (Torah) was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. In Christ we are complete and saved.

 

[Angela53510]

No one can be saved apart from the LAW.

By LAW, I'm referring to that which is also called The LAW of Grace or Mosaic LAW or Torah or Pentateuch or 1st 5 books of the Bible.

The LAW points the way to salvation, among other things by CONVICTING OF SIN. Without knowledge of SIN as God has defined it, there can be no starting point for personal redemption. If one doesn't know one is a sinner, then how can such a person be persuaded to seek divine justification?

Jesus is NOT the LAWgiver. Traditionally, that role has been assigned to Moses who passed the LAW God gave him to the Hebrew people and ultimately to the world (which to this day has rejected it - including Christians).

Jesus didn't judge anyone. Believers are not authorized to judge either. It is the sinner, the spiritually unregenerate who judges themselves unworthy of God's grace and forgiveness. This is an important point for readers here.

When the post protestant church rejects the LAW, it rejects the foundation of good doctrine. In doing so it substitutes its own dogma which is normally illogical, ultimately irreverent and totally erroneous.

The LAW points the way to salvation. While it is true the LAW cannot save of and by itself, it is also true CHRISTIAN TRADITION CANNOT SAVE either. Christians have wandered away, even rejected the template of religious instruction provided by the LAW and substituted their own godless form of heresy. Today we see this in religious slogans and buzz words shouted and reiterated as though they were some sort of truth, when in fact most people who regurgitate these words have no idea what they're saying.

There are two laws.

Most of the confusion Christians cling to is based upon the supposition there's one law. There isn't. There are two.

First is the LAW OF GRACE also called Mosaic Law or Torah. It was given by God to Moses and the Hebrew people and often quoted by and lived by Jesus.

Second is the Law of Works formulated by the Jewish rabbinate also called Talmud. It was created during the Jewish captivity in Babylon and has been passed down to us to this day. Jewish scholarship of today is primarily focused upon Talmud.

Jesus and the apostles lived by Torah. Everything they taught and wrote is based upon the Law & the Prophets as well as some of the writings (Proverbs, Psalms, etc.).

Matthew 5:17 quotes Jesus saying, "I did not come to abolish the LAW, but to fulfill it." In another passage He also said not one jot or tittle would pass away from the LAW. Jots and tittles are very tiny punctuation marks associated with Hebrew writing. They serve to clarify and enhance the meaning of the letters and words they are attached to. If not a single tittle is to be lost, THEN THE LAW STILL STANDS. What then, did Jesus fulfill if he didn't destroy the LAW?

If post protestant Christians had been taught a modicum of the LAW, they'd be able to answer that question easily as well as the question as to why so much blood is required for forgiveness. Since they reject it, they can only come up with nonsensical opinions if they dare to imagine that much at all. Most just twitch their heads in church like dashboard bobbleheads and acknowledge or utter some scripture slogan or buzz word.

The world is dying in its SIN, but modern Christians are only concerned with spiritually dead politically correct issues. Some statistics suggest that if this aberration continues there will be no organized Christian church in less than a generation.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

This long post, all of it yours! Almost nothing g Biblical, except for a mention of the Torah, and "hollering's" favourite verse to quote Matt. 5:17! He doesn't know Scripture, he cannot answer a challenge from the many verses people have used. He can't even express what his heresy is, using Bible verses & passages. I've been watching this, and he simply appears to not be very knowledgeable about the Bible, because his doctrine is not sound, not being built on a Biblucal foundation. Just his own words chirping in the dark!

I suspect that a Judaizer like you, choir loft, has barely read any of the Bible except the first 5 books of the OT.

I would suggest you read all of Galatians, which addresses the very heresy you are describing. I did not become a Christian because of the law. God revealed himself to me through the NT. True, I had memorized many verses as a child. And it was John 3:16 that really make me realize the tremendous love and forgiveness of Jesus.

I will freely admit I was a sinner. But it was the Holy Spirit that convicted me, not reading the law. It was the Holy Spirit that starting leading me from the moment God saved me, not OT law!

In fact, Paul and Peter & the rest of the Christians at the first Jerusalem council made definitive statement about what laws were necessary to keep.

"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” Acts 15:5-11
Note the meaning of "yoke" as a metaphor- it is the law, which no one can keep!

Here is the final declaration:

"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” Acts 15:19-21

4 items, 3 of which don't apply to us, today! "Abstain from sexual immortality." That's it! That's all!

No Gentile needs to hear the law to be saved. For that matter, neither do the Jews, although they usually do know all the laws.

What is necessary to do to be saved? Everything of God's part. Very little on our part.

"9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." Romans 10:9-10

The NT also talks about repentance, which God gives us the grace to do!

"Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38.

"Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham." Luke 3:8

Note how having Abraham as your father, ie being a Hebrew, doesn't save you. Neither does knowing the law!

"In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Luke 15:10

"Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?" Romans 2:4

Notice that it is God's kindness that leads us to repent, not the law!

Well, you've harangued us enough with your Judaizing, heretical gospel.

For everyone not knowing whether this guy is right or not, I strongly urge you read and study Galatians. Paul addresses this in great detail. It why "Hollering" doesn't like Paul, because he totally demolishes "choir loft's" heresy, which is not the gospel. Put yourself under the law of Moses, you have basically gone back to being a slave. We are free when we follow Jesus, not the law! It

 

[ChoirLoft]

This long post, all of it yours! Almost nothing g Biblical, except for a mention of the Torah, and "hollering's" favourite verse to quote Matt. 5:17! He doesn't know Scripture, he cannot answer a challenge from the many verses people have used. He can't even express what his heresy is, using Bible verses & passages. I've been watching this, and he simply appears to not be very knowledgeable about the Bible, because his doctrine is not sound, not being built on a Biblucal foundation. Just his own words chirping in the dark!

I suspect that a Judaizer like you, choir loft, has barely read any of the Bible except the first 5 books of the OT.

I would suggest you read all of Galatians, which addresses the very heresy you are describing. I did not become a Christian because of the law. God revealed himself to me through the NT. True, I had memorized many verses as a child. And it was John 3:16 that really make me realize the tremendous love and forgiveness of Jesus.

I will freely admit I was a sinner. But it was the Holy Spirit that convicted me, not reading the law. It was the Holy Spirit that starting leading me from the moment God saved me, not OT law!

In fact, Paul and Peter & the rest of the Christians at the first Jerusalem council made definitive statement about what laws were necessary to keep.

"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” Acts 15:5-11
Note the meaning of "yoke" as a metaphor- it is the law, which no one can keep!

Here is the final declaration:

"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” Acts 15:19-21

4 items, 3 of which don't apply to us, today! "Abstain from sexual immortality." That's it! That's all!

No Gentile needs to hear the law to be saved. For that matter, neither do the Jews, although they usually do know all the laws.

What is necessary to do to be saved? Everything of God's part. Very little on our part.

"9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." Romans 10:9-10

The NT also talks about repentance, which God gives us the grace to do!

"Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38.

"Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham." Luke 3:8

Note how having Abraham as your father, ie being a Hebrew, doesn't save you. Neither does knowing the law!

"In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Luke 15:10

"Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?" Romans 2:4

Notice that it is God's kindness that leads us to repent, not the law!

Well, you've harangued us enough with your Judaizing, heretical gospel.

For everyone not knowing whether this guy is right or not, I strongly urge you read and study Galatians. Paul addresses this in great detail. It why "Hollering" doesn't like Paul, because he totally demolishes "choir loft's" heresy, which is not the gospel. Put yourself under the law of Moses, you have basically gone back to being a slave. We are free when we follow Jesus, not the law! It

I am forced to repeat Jesus' words because those who cling to heresy refuse to accept them. I'm not a Judaizer because I'm not promoting Jewish tradition. False accusations and character assassinations do not prove a point. They only suggest the one who makes them is at a total loss for logical Biblical explanations and truth.

AGAIN I am not here promoting Jewish tradition.
AGAIN I am stating that neither Jewish NOR Christian tradition will save anyone.

Logic here is perverted to subvert God's Holy LAW without which no one can be saved. It is the LAW and Prophets that point to Christ. Everything written there is fulfilled in the man Jesus. (Luke 24:44)

"Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far away from me. In vain do they worship me teaching as doctrines the precepts of men." - Jesus as quoted by Mark

As the pharisees of Jesus' day perverted the LAW so as to promote their traditions, so have post protestant Christians of today perverted the LAW so as to promote their own traditions. God's days and times have been changed from the birth of Christ and His resurrection to a celebration of capitalism and pseudo-pagan demi-gods of Santa Claus and the Easter bunny. Christian tradition will not save anybody, but it will lead many into false doctrine and sermons about happy talk, situation ethics and personal improvement (which won't save anybody either).

What is wrong with the LAW?

The error is among Biblically illiterate Christians who neither know nor admit Jesus and the apostles were talking about two laws.

One LAW is the LAW OF GRACE (Torah) given by God to Moses and the world. The purpose of this LAW is to convict of SIN. Apart from this conviction no one will realize they need salvation. Ask any evangelist worth his salt and he will agree. Ask any TV preacher and he will respond with a request for donations. Like most pastors he has one hand on the Bible and the other in someone else's pocket.

Second law is the Law of Works (Talmud) formulated by the Jewish rabbinate during the captivity in Babylon. To this day, Jews mostly follow the precepts of the Talmud and the traditions it insists upon.

Jesus lived by the LAW.

If is was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me. It's too bad it isn't good enough for the writer of the post I quoted here.

Jesus taught the Tanakh (what gentiles call the Old Testament) always as did all the apostles. All of them constantly compared God's LAW OF GRACE with man's Law of Works. By today's standards, Jesus would have been identified as a Karaite Jew - a Jew who rejects the Talmud and lives and studies and speaks only of the Tanakh.

Can the same be said of post protestant Christians? It cannot, for post protestant Christians have denied the LAW, the foundation it provides for true interpretation and doctrine, its purpose to convict of SIN as well as its promise of God's forgiveness and blessings.

As a result, the post protestant church is dwindling in attendance (according to PEW & Gallop statistics) following occultism and sexual perversion in all its devious forms and even denying the Bible itself as God's word (most major Christian denominations have made public statements that the Bible is on the same level as all other human literature).

Upon what does the post protestant church stand if not God's unchangeable foundations of the LAW? It stands upon shifting sand of its own philosophies and conjecture. The spirit has departed (1 Samuel 4:21) and there is nothing left of it but an empty shell of its former glory. (2 Tim 3:5)

What is wrong with God's LAW?

I end this by writing that in this lawLESS society, we could use a little more LAW and a lot less lawLESSness.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Dino246]

I am forced to repeat Jesus' words because those who cling to heresy refuse to accept them. I'm not a Judaizer because I'm not promoting Jewish tradition. False accusations and character assassinations do not prove a point. They only suggest the one who makes them is at a total loss for logical Biblical explanations and truth.

AGAIN I am not here promoting Jewish tradition.
AGAIN I am stating that neither Jewish NOR Christian tradition will save anyone.

Logic here is perverted to subvert God's Holy LAW without which no one can be saved. It is the LAW and Prophets that point to Christ. Everything written there is fulfilled in the man Jesus. (Luke 24:44)

"Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far away from me. In vain do they worship me teaching as doctrines the precepts of men." - Jesus as quoted by Mark

As the pharisees of Jesus' day perverted the LAW so as to promote their traditions, so have post protestant Christians of today perverted the LAW so as to promote their own traditions. God's days and times have been changed from the birth of Christ and His resurrection to a celebration of capitalism and pseudo-pagan demi-gods of Santa Claus and the Easter bunny. Christian tradition will not save anybody, but it will lead many into false doctrine and sermons about happy talk, situation ethics and personal improvement (which won't save anybody either).

What is wrong with the LAW?

The error is among Biblically illiterate Christians who neither know nor admit Jesus and the apostles were talking about two laws.

One LAW is the LAW OF GRACE (Torah) given by God to Moses and the world. The purpose of this LAW is to convict of SIN. Apart from this conviction no one will realize they need salvation. Ask any evangelist worth his salt and he will agree. Ask any TV preacher and he will respond with a request for donations. Like most pastors he has one hand on the Bible and the other in someone else's pocket.

Second law is the Law of Works (Talmud) formulated by the Jewish rabbinate during the captivity in Babylon. To this day, Jews mostly follow the precepts of the Talmud and the traditions it insists upon.

Jesus lived by the LAW.

If is was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me. It's too bad it isn't good enough for the writer of the post I quoted here.

Jesus taught the Tanakh (what gentiles call the Old Testament) always as did all the apostles. All of them constantly compared God's LAW OF GRACE with man's Law of Works. By today's standards, Jesus would have been identified as a Karaite Jew - a Jew who rejects the Talmud and lives and studies and speaks only of the Tanakh.

Can the same be said of post protestant Christians? It cannot, for post protestant Christians have denied the LAW, the foundation it provides for true interpretation and doctrine, its purpose to convict of SIN as well as its promise of God's forgiveness and blessings.

As a result, the post protestant church is dwindling in attendance (according to PEW & Gallop statistics) following occultism and sexual perversion in all its devious forms and even denying the Bible itself as God's word (most major Christian denominations have made public statements that the Bible is on the same level as all other human literature).

Upon what does the post protestant church stand if not God's unchangeable foundations of the LAW? It stands upon shifting sand of its own philosophies and conjecture. The spirit has departed (1 Samuel 4:21) and there is nothing left of it but an empty shell of its former glory. (2 Tim 3:5)

What is wrong with God's LAW?

I end this by writing that in this lawLESS society, we could use a little more LAW and a lot less lawLESSness.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

There's nothing wrong with God's law (the Torah). However, Christians are not under it. We are under the new covenant in Christ's blood, not the old covenant in the blood of bulls and goats. What you are missing is that the instruction for the new covenant believer is found in the latter 27 books of the Bible, not the first five.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

This long post, all of it yours! Almost nothing g Biblical, except for a mention of the Torah, and "hollering's" favourite verse to quote Matt. 5:17! He doesn't know Scripture, he cannot answer a challenge from the many verses people have used. He can't even express what his heresy is, using Bible verses & passages. I've been watching this, and he simply appears to not be very knowledgeable about the Bible, because his doctrine is not sound, not being built on a Biblucal foundation. Just his own words chirping in the dark!

I suspect that a Judaizer like you, choir loft, has barely read any of the Bible except the first 5 books of the OT.

I would suggest you read all of Galatians, which addresses the very heresy you are describing. I did not become a Christian because of the law. God revealed himself to me through the NT. True, I had memorized many verses as a child. And it was John 3:16 that really make me realize the tremendous love and forgiveness of Jesus.

I will freely admit I was a sinner. But it was the Holy Spirit that convicted me, not reading the law. It was the Holy Spirit that starting leading me from the moment God saved me, not OT law!

In fact, Paul and Peter & the rest of the Christians at the first Jerusalem council made definitive statement about what laws were necessary to keep.

"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” Acts 15:5-11
Note the meaning of "yoke" as a metaphor- it is the law, which no one can keep!

Here is the final declaration:

"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” Acts 15:19-21

4 items, 3 of which don't apply to us, today! "Abstain from sexual immortality." That's it! That's all!

No Gentile needs to hear the law to be saved. For that matter, neither do the Jews, although they usually do know all the laws.

What is necessary to do to be saved? Everything of God's part. Very little on our part.

"9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." Romans 10:9-10

The NT also talks about repentance, which God gives us the grace to do!

"Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38.

"Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham." Luke 3:8

Note how having Abraham as your father, ie being a Hebrew, doesn't save you. Neither does knowing the law!

"In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Luke 15:10

"Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?" Romans 2:4

Notice that it is God's kindness that leads us to repent, not the law!

Well, you've harangued us enough with your Judaizing, heretical gospel.

For everyone not knowing whether this guy is right or not, I strongly urge you read and study Galatians. Paul addresses this in great detail. It why "Hollering" doesn't like Paul, because he totally demolishes "choir loft's" heresy, which is not the gospel. Put yourself under the law of Moses, you have basically gone back to being a slave. We are free when we follow Jesus, not the law! It

Was he/she worth all your effort and time to type this?

 

[Angela53510]

Was he/she worth all your effort and time to type this?

Always! Why do you think I've been in this forum so long? Every person I talk to, whether I agree, or totally disagree, I do a lot of background biblical and original languages research. That causes me to grow in my knowledge of God. And knowing God more, combined with loving God more, is always the right direction to be moving!

How about you?

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

Always! Why do you think I've been in this forum so long? Every person I talk to, whether I agree, or totally disagree, I do a lot of background biblical and original languages research. That causes me to grow in my knowledge of God. And knowing God more, combined with loving God more, is always the right direction to be moving!

How about you?

Well, I'm by no means perfect, but if I see someone is overtly obnoxious, they aren't here for spiritual reasons and I click the ignore button. I have close to 10 people here on ignore already. The best way I gage someone is by Jesus' conduct with the woman at the well or with the adulteress. He didn't open his mouth and speak belligerently to either of them.

Remember, we recognize people by their fruits. If you see good fruit, you can learn something. If you see evil fruit, click ignore.

 

[ChoirLoft]

There's nothing wrong with God's law (the Torah). However, Christians are not under it. We are under the new covenant in Christ's blood, not the old covenant in the blood of bulls and goats. What you are missing is that the instruction for the new covenant believer is found in the latter 27 books of the Bible, not the first five.

Nowhere does the Bible state anyone, including gentiles, are exempt from the LAW. Not knowing the LAW at all you propose an argument against it to support lawLESSness.

Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’ - Jesus as quoted by Matt 7:23

Jesus also said not one jot or tittle would pass away from the LAW. Matt 5:18

In Matthew 5:17 Jesus said He did NOT come to abolish the LAW.

THEREFORE THE LAW STILL STANDS.

When Christians falsely claim the new covenant supercedes the old covenant they have no idea what the two covenants involved. Specifically your statement about the blood of bulls and goats indicates a lack in your religious education. You state I'm missing your point that "the new covenant is better than the old covenant". Which part? St. Paul said the old covenant was becoming obsolete, not that the new one is better. Again - which part was becoming obsolete (and in fact today has passed away completely) as Paul wrote. Which part is better as you insist. I doubt you know. You are only opposed to the LAW without any reasonable standard to sustain your premise.

My question to you is: What part of the old covenant is obsolete (in Paul's words) and what part of the new covenant is better (in your words)? This is a simple question if the LAW is to be considered, but quite complicated when it is not.

If the old LAW is NOT abolished, then what part of the new LAW is made perfect?
AGAIN, if all the LAW still stands then what is the difference between OT & NT?
AGAIN you cannot appeal to any part of the new covenant if you (falsely) claim gentiles are not under it.

You cannot appeal to any aspect of the LAW, either that quoted by Jesus or Paul if you also claim Christians aren't under it.
AGAIN the LAW is NOT abolished. The LAW still stands.

So exactly what are you defending or attacking?

If its Jewish tradition you hate, then you are an anti-Semite as are most Christians today.
If its Christian tradition you prefer, then you are defending heresy for there is NO aspect of Christian tradition that saves anybody.

AGAIN I'm not promoting Jewish tradition as some sort of panacea for the sins of mankind. NEITHER am I supporting Christians or Christian tradition as a saving grace of any kind. It's simply not part of the LAW, which defines and directs the nature and purpose of forgiveness and justification. Christian tradition only serves to feed rampant capitalism and ego. It does not serve the purposes of the Kingdom of Heaven. THOSE PURPOSES are set in the LAW.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[ChoirLoft]

Well, I'm by no means perfect, but if I see someone is overtly obnoxious, they aren't here for spiritual reasons and I click the ignore button. I have close to 10 people here on ignore already. The best way I gage someone is by Jesus' conduct with the woman at the well or with the adulteress. He didn't open his mouth and speak belligerently to either of them.

Remember, we recognize people by their fruits. If you see good fruit, you can learn something. If you see evil fruit, click ignore.

How do you define the quality of fruitfulness?

You seem to operate under your own law or your own definition of right and wrong. THIS is exactly the SIN of Eve in the Garden of Eden. She chose to follow the deceiver and adopt its principles rather than those of God.

Interesting you should appeal to fruit to justify your argument.

You may choose to ignore such things, but others do not.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Dino246]

Nowhere does the Bible state anyone, including gentiles, are exempt from the LAW. Not knowing the LAW at all you propose an argument against it to support lawLESSness.

Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’ - Jesus as quoted by Matt 7:23

Jesus also said not one jot or tittle would pass away from the LAW. Matt 5:18

In Matthew 5:17 Jesus said He did NOT come to abolish the LAW.

THEREFORE THE LAW STILL STANDS.

When Christians falsely claim the new covenant supercedes the old covenant they have no idea what the two covenants involved. Specifically your statement about the blood of bulls and goats indicates a lack in your religious education. You state I'm missing your point that "the new covenant is better than the old covenant". Which part? St. Paul said the old covenant was becoming obsolete, not that the new one is better. Again - which part was becoming obsolete (and in fact today has passed away completely) as Paul wrote. Which part is better as you insist. I doubt you know. You are only opposed to the LAW without any reasonable standard to sustain your premise.

My question to you is: What part of the old covenant is obsolete (in Paul's words) and what part of the new covenant is better (in your words)? This is a simple question if the LAW is to be considered, but quite complicated when it is not.

If the old LAW is NOT abolished, then what part of the new LAW is made perfect?
AGAIN, if all the LAW still stands then what is the difference between OT & NT?
AGAIN you cannot appeal to any part of the new covenant if you (falsely) claim gentiles are not under it.

You cannot appeal to any aspect of the LAW, either that quoted by Jesus or Paul if you also claim Christians aren't under it.
AGAIN the LAW is NOT abolished. The LAW still stands.

So exactly what are you defending or attacking?

If its Jewish tradition you hate, then you are an anti-Semite as are most Christians today.
If its Christian tradition you prefer, then you are defending heresy for there is NO aspect of Christian tradition that saves anybody.

AGAIN I'm not promoting Jewish tradition as some sort of panacea for the sins of mankind. NEITHER am I supporting Christians or Christian tradition as a saving grace of any kind. It's simply not part of the LAW, which defines and directs the nature and purpose of forgiveness and justification. Christian tradition only serves to feed rampant capitalism and ego. It does not serve the purposes of the Kingdom of Heaven. THOSE PURPOSES are set in the LAW.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

There is so much error in your post that it will take more time than I have at present to address it.

In the meantime, please read Acts 15, Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews.

 

[SophieT]

that dude still here screaming at everyone? stop responding to him...he loves the attention. definitely made the top of my ignore list

 

[Mem]

And now for something completely different...

 

[ChoirLoft]

There is so much error in your post that it will take more time than I have at present to address it.

In the meantime, please read Acts 15, Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews.

I submit that you don't address the errors you seem to have found because you have no scriptural response to share at all. This is typical of Biblically illiterate Christians who fuss and fume because their favorite slogan or buzz words have been proven to be compromised.

MY INTEREST in the LAW is because it provides a foundation for spiritual truth. It is the solid rock Jesus spoke of for determining the basis of an unshakeable theology. The solid character of the LAW isn't changed by Christian heresy or subjective philosophy (adopted from the Greeks by the Roman Catholic theologians in the early centuries of Christianity). Greek philosophy remains the subjective changeable core of Christian theology to this day - protestant or Catholic. Jewish LAW doesn't change and provides a firm foundation for objective unchangeable ideology. Here are a few examples;

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Denial of the LAW by Christians suggests it no longer applies to them (everybody else, but not them...hmmm). Christians believe that church membership saves them. This includes post protestant churches as well as the RCC brand. Such a position suggests I can kill the head of a household, rape his wife, steal his goods, abscond with his children, burn his house to the ground and blame the whole thing on him - all the while remaining guiltless of sin. (This is more like a middle east religion, but I digress.)

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE RAPTURE.

The context of scripture, especially in the Tanakh (OT), insists God will see His people THROUGH trouble not evacuate them from it. - - The LAW provides situational examples.
- Shadrach, Meshach & Abednego weren't excused from the fire. God was with them in it and through it.
- The Hebrew people escaped from Egyptian bondage through several miracles. One of them was the Passover when God sheltered them THROUGH the plague of death. They weren't evacuated from it.
- Hebrews escaped THROUGH the Red Sea from Pharaoh's army. They didn't get a helicopter ride over it. God provided a way through and was with them every step.
- God was with Daniel THROUGH the lion's den. The prophet didn't get a bye week. He had to endure the possibility of death. God was with him and saved him from death.
- God was with Jonah when he was swallowed by the fish. Jonah didn't get a trip to the beach for the weekend. He wasn't excused from reality.

The God of truth provides an escape from trouble through it. There is no context or suggestion in the Bible that some sort of Star Trek beam-out will happen at the End of Time. THAT is RCC FUTURISM and it is not Biblical truth. Jesus WILL come again, but He will come in reality to see us THROUGH trouble, not over it.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ORIGINAL SIN

Original sin was an RCC doctrine from the beginning of the church's authority over the minds of men. According to the LAW of Moses, the LAW of Grace, no one is guilty of SIN unless the LAW is broken. A child who dies in its infancy is not guilty of SIN because it has not committed a violation. Is a man guilty of robbing a bank if he hasn't broken human law? Is human law better or more perfect than the LAW of Grace? Post protestant Christians as well as RCC members deny it vehemently.

I can continue with many example and illustrations, but suffice it to say that inclusion of the LAW in one's theology provides a bulwark against error and flummery, into which the church today has delivered its members.

Again I'm not promoting Jewish tradition. It will not save, but NEITHER will Christian tradition, which is altogether debauched by political correctness, hedonism and the eroding effects of a dead society.

The spirit has departed from the post protestant church because the Word of God has been rejected. 1 Samuel 4:21

Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "'Come out of her, my people,' so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues; - Revelation 18:4

Spend some time reading and studying the LAW. Rather than denying its capacity to direct one unto righteous thinking and living one may find one's life improved and one's theology clarified.

If it was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for me.

Why isn't it good enough for the post protestant church?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Dino246]

I submit that you don't address the errors you seem to have found because you have no scriptural response to share at all.

I submit that you are impatient and make unwarranted assumptions.

I have been working the last four days, and have been otherwise busy in the evenings. Deal with it. Significant error takes significant response.

 

[ChoirLoft]

There is so much error in your post that it will take more time than I have at present to address it.

In the meantime, please read Acts 15, Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews.

I have read those passages. None of them denies the LAW - its objective nature, its guidance unto salvation, its format for truth and good doctrine OR God's plan of redemption.

The problem post protestant Christians have is their lack of knowledge of the LAW and of Jewish tradition. During the period of time in which the NT was written and during which Jesus walked the earth there was great conflict between the TWO LAWS.

As I stated earlier SEVERAL TIMES, there are two laws (actually 3 if you include modern Halacha along with Torah and Talmud).

Again - Torah is the LAW OF GRACE because it was given by God to Moses who handed it down to humanity.
Again - Talmud is the law of works because it was created by the Jewish rabbinate during the Babylonian capitivity.

Halacha is the modern application of Jewish law to Jewish tradition and Israeli life style.

PLEASE GOOGLE the terms. I'm not making this up.

Jesus opposed Talmud as well as the apostles. They all opposed dilution of the LAW by Jewish social tradition - THE SAME THING that's happened to Christian theology since the reformation and why it's now called the post protestant church.

Kindly refer to ANY historic Protestant document older than the twentieth century (Pilgrim's Progress, for example). In these works you will discover an adherence to Mosaic LAW in the church that has entirely disappeared in the 20th and 21st century. It is so bad that people who consider themselves religious will attack anyone who suggests following the LAW of Moses is a good thing in principle if not in truth.

Paul whittled the LAW down to two simple statements - don't eat meat dedicated to idols and don't participate in extramarital sex.

The current attitude of the post protestant church denies even these two simple statements. The church embraces illicit sex, literally eats that which is dedicated to idols (we worship celebrities, follow political fanatics and consume anything and everything society has to offer including excessive drink, drugs, binge eating to the point of obesity, etc.) and denies Paul's strict denial of female leadership in church organizations.

What is left except a tissue thin denial of law and anything associated with it. In truth, this is the spirit of anti-Christ we were warned against.

It is time to revisit THE LAW of Moses.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

 

[Dino246]

Nowhere does the Bible state anyone, including gentiles, are exempt from the LAW.

Romans 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law...

Not knowing the LAW at all you propose an argument against it to support lawLESSness.

Unwarranted assumption.

Jesus also said not one jot or tittle would pass away from the LAW. Matt 5:18

You skipped the rest of His statement: "Until all was fulfilled."

In Matthew 5:17 Jesus said He did NOT come to abolish the LAW.

THEREFORE THE LAW STILL STANDS.

Fallacy: non sequitur.

When Christians falsely claim the new covenant supercedes the old covenant they have no idea what the two covenants involved.

Simply wrong. Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete.

Specifically your statement about the blood of bulls and goats indicates a lack in your religious education.

More unwarranted assumption. You don't know jack about me or my breadth of knowledge.

You state I'm missing your point that "the new covenant is better than the old covenant". Which part? St. Paul said the old covenant was becoming obsolete, not that the new one is better. Again - which part was becoming obsolete (and in fact today has passed away completely) as Paul wrote. Which part is better as you insist. I doubt you know.

Hebrews 8:6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is the mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

You are only opposed to the LAW without any reasonable standard to sustain your premise.

Yet more unwarranted assumption. Being a jackdonkey is only going to earn my contempt.

My question to you is: What part of the old covenant is obsolete (in Paul's words) and what part of the new covenant is better (in your words)? This is a simple question if the LAW is to be considered, but quite complicated when it is not.

It is highly unlikely that Paul was the author of Hebrews. The answer to your question is posted above, from Hebrews 8:6.

If the old LAW is NOT abolished, then what part of the new LAW is made perfect?
AGAIN, if all the LAW still stands then what is the difference between OT & NT?
AGAIN you cannot appeal to any part of the new covenant if you (falsely) claim gentiles are not under it.

Three nonsensical questions that don't warrant further response.

You cannot appeal to any aspect of the LAW, either that quoted by Jesus or Paul if you also claim Christians aren't under it.

I can, and do. The Law is historical and foundational, but not binding upon Christians because we are not under the Sinai covenant. Rather, we are under the new covenant in Christ's blood.

AGAIN the LAW is NOT abolished. The LAW still stands.

Restating your points without having adequately supported them is useless.

So exactly what are you defending or attacking?

I am defending biblical truth against your errors.

If its Jewish tradition you hate, then you are an anti-Semite as are most Christians today.

Yawn.

If its Christian tradition you prefer, then you are defending heresy for there is NO aspect of Christian tradition that saves anybody.

More yawn. I'm not going to bother responding to your unwarranted assumptions.

 

[ChoirLoft]

I submit that you are impatient and make unwarranted assumptions.

I have been working the last four days, and have been otherwise busy in the evenings. Deal with it. Significant error takes significant response.

Good excuses, but they will not sustain an argument against God's HOLY LAW.

What exactly do you hate about the LAW? Why is it bad or wrong and why isn't it applicable to Christian life?

Apart from the LAW no one can be saved. Let's start with point one. There is no other way to begin the process of redemption apart from a knowledge of SIN in one's life. This is where the LAW begins its redemptive work.

Galatians 2:16 says a person isn't justified by the LAW. In what then are they justified? Indeed by the blood of Christ.

BUT - why the blood? Why did Jesus die on the cross? What benefit to us is the blood?

The LAW tells us. The LAW explains why it is necessary for the messiah (ha-mashiach) to die. This sort of explanation is why the LAW is important to us and why it shouldn't be swept under the rug by pseudo-Christian lawless fanatics.

Why is Jesus called the lamb of God?

Do you not know that the LAW provides for the sacrifice of bulls and goats and birds for forgiveness of a man's sin, but NOT THE BLOOD OF A LAMB?

What is the special significance of the lamb's blood according to the LAW? There is one, you know.

When you jump on your pedestal and proclaim loud and long that the LAW is of no value to Christians, then no Christian is saved because salvation is determined BY THE LAW. It is the LAW that points to Christ and it is by Christ we are saved.......but why and how?

Modern Christians do not know. Because they are altogether corrupt in denying the LAW their salvation is based only on religious slogans and buzz words. Most of the time they don't even know the meaning the the words they quote.

And so I await your post - most likely full of scripture quotations with no deeper meaning than that of buzz words. Most Christians only parrot these religious slogans and have no idea what they're quoting or why. Having only a middle school level acquaintance with the Bible most Christians stumble over the LAW and the Christ it points to.

Which is why the church is a joke in today's society. Church folks have no idea what they believe - so they ignore their ignorance and sing songs of heresy and humanistic hubris.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[ChoirLoft]

Romans 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law...


Unwarranted assumption.


You skipped the rest of His statement: "Until all was fulfilled."


Fallacy: non sequitur.


Simply wrong. Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete.


More unwarranted assumption. You don't know jack about me or my breadth of knowledge.


Hebrews 8:6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is the mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.


Yet more unwarranted assumption. Being a jackdonkey is only going to earn my contempt.


It is highly unlikely that Paul was the author of Hebrews. The answer to your question is posted above, from Hebrews 8:6.


Three nonsensical questions that don't warrant further response.


I can, and do. The Law is historical and foundational, but not binding upon Christians because we are not under the Sinai covenant. Rather, we are under the new covenant in Christ's blood.


Restating your points without having adequately supported them is useless.


I am defending biblical truth against your errors.


Yawn.


More yawn. I'm not going to bother responding to your unwarranted assumptions.

I restate my argument because not one line is properly understood. Every line is a choke point because hatred of the LAW is the real issue here - pure anti-Semitic hatred of Jewish LAW and anything associated with it in the Bible.

I have adequately explained my position. Denial of it is neither logical factual or theologically well oriented.

It is the typical response of one who has no real rebuttal, truthful opposition, or a modicum of desire to understand the root of the argument - which has been my point all along.

Thank you for proving me correct.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Dino246]

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Denial of the LAW by Christians suggests it no longer applies to them.

Biblically-literate Christians understand that the Law is written on our hearts, and that the Holy Spirit is working within us to conform us to Christ. Self-willed obedience to the Law only makes people self-righteous. Further, because it is IMPOSSIBLE to obey the Law, it is pointless to try. Jesus offered us a better way.

Christians believe that church membership saves them.

Some uninformed people perhaps do believe that. Biblically-literate Christians don't.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE RAPTURE.

Irrelevant to this discussion.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ORIGINAL SIN

Also irrelevant, though I am inclined to agree with you on this point.

Again I'm not promoting Jewish tradition. It will not save, but NEITHER will Christian tradition, which is altogether debauched by political correctness, hedonism and the eroding effects of a dead society.

I agree; neither saves, and I haven't suggested otherwise. What does save is belief in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ.

The spirit has departed from the post protestant church because the Word of God has been rejected. 1 Samuel 4:21

Clearly you have issues with some branches of the Church. That's fine; so do I. however, don't make the asinine mistake of assuming that everyone who disagrees with you on any point is ignorant of scriptural truth.

Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "'Come out of her, my people,' so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

- Revelation 18:4

This is speaking about the world system, not the Church.

Spend some time reading and studying the LAW. Rather than denying its capacity to direct one unto righteous thinking and living one may find one's life improved and one's theology clarified.

If it was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for me.

Why isn't it good enough for the post protestant church?

Because it wasn't intended to be "good enough" for the Church. The Law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, not a taskmaster to bring us to heaven.[/QUOTE]

 

[ChoirLoft]

A simple guide as to how the LAW works unto redemption.

1. A person is convicted of SIN by the LAW.

2. The LAW then instructs the penitent sinner as to how to be forgiven and what sacrifice to bring to the Lord of hosts when he approaches the throne of Grace.

3. The LAW then tells us how God's unmerited favor is applied to the penitent sinner - by means of the blood shed on the sinner's behalf.

4. GRACE is granted to the penitent sinner in the form of the Holy Spirit - a guarantee of immortal life and seal of justification.

5. The Holy Spirit then separates the justified person unto God (sanctification) and enables that person to please God by living according to the LAW.

LAW and Grace work together before during and after the time a man comes to Jesus to be saved. There is no end of the LAW and there is no limit to the work of Grace to assist the believer in living the LAW so as to please God.

6. When a believer SINS after having appealed to God for justification then there is a fear of punishment for those SINs, according to the LAW. Denial of the LAW doesn't provide a Get Out Of Jail free card for those who have accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior.

In a nutshell, these are the basic points of the outline as to how the LAW and GRACE work unto redemption.

The LAW still stands - else no one can be saved.

Jesus said it. Denying His words and substituting another gospel is the work of the devil - according to the LAW.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...