50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[TheDivineWatermark]

Your "great aspect" idea is invented.

That is not what scripture says.

Not even close.

You're missing the fact that:

--Daniel 9:24-27 is SEQUENTIAL (so v.26's "desolaTIONS [PLURAL] are determined" [THAT'S the lengthy time period] comes after the v.25's "shall be CUT OFF [32ad]");

--[I disgree with your ripping a cpl verses out of the Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11 CONTEXTS] which are actually [totally] EQUIVALENT the SEALS in Rev6, which Rev6 is said to be a part of the Rev1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period (which is DISTINCT from "the things WHICH ARE" 1:19b "things" which are NOT said are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; 1:1] by CONTRAST)

--the SEALS / TRUMPETS / VIALS (when one studies the time-stamps and timing clues in Rev) are all contained WITHIN 2520 days (the "FOR ONE WEEK [7 years]" that Dan9:27a speaks of, that comes SEQUENTIALLY after the v.26a events [/70ad things]), from start to finish; aka the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period Rev1:1 / 1:4 / 1:19c speaks of (and so does Lk18:8 / Rom16:20 )



[much more, but there's no sense covering all of it... Believe as you wish, GaryA... have a restful evening = ) ]

 

[GaryA]

You're missing the fact that:

--Daniel 9:24-27 is SEQUENTIAL (so v.26's "desolaTIONS [PLURAL] are determined" [THAT'S the lengthy time period] comes after the v.25's "shall be CUT OFF [32ad]");

--[I disgree with your ripping a cpl verses out of the Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11 CONTEXTS] which are actually [totally] EQUIVALENT the SEALS in Rev6, which Rev6 is said to be a part of the Rev1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period (which is DISTINCT from "the things WHICH ARE" 1:19b "things" which are NOT said are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; 1:1] by CONTRAST)

--the SEALS / TRUMPETS / VIALS (when one studies the time-stamps and timing clues in Rev) are all contained WITHIN 2520 days (the "FOR ONE WEEK [7 years]" that Dan9:27a speaks of, that comes SEQUENTIALLY after the v.26a events [/70ad things]), from start to finish; aka the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period Rev1:1 / 1:4 / 1:19c speaks of (and so does Lk18:8 / Rom16:20 )



[much more, but there's no sense covering all of it... Believe as you wish, GaryA... have a restful evening = ) ]

I disagree with most of what you said in the quote above...

We can disagree.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do you know what is the biggest difference between being Mortal and what is makes IMMORTAL is ? ? ?

NO BLOOD IN THE IMMORTAL BODY.

Who cares? The only biblical issue between mortality and immortality is being imperishable. Like your views on a pretrib rapture, your claim about "no blood" is without any biblical support. Just another opinion or guess, I would guess.

Can you show me any verse that speaks of this "bloodlessness" that you claim?

 

[cv5]

Your "great aspect" idea is invented.

That is not what scripture says.

Not even close.

Strongs H1419 - gadol

What in the world are you talking about now?

 

[Runningman]

Runningman is the one who believes that "moon into blood / moon became as blood" (6th Seal) is at the same point in time as Matt24:29-31 "moon shall not give her light" (AFTER the tribulation of THOSE days)...

*I* do NOT believe they are speaking of the same point in time, like he does... I am making the point (as you are) that these are distinct, and occur at DIFFERENT times, not at the SAME time, like Runningman believes...




I'm not saying they "contradict"...

... I'm saying the "6th Seal" is not "AFTER the tribulation of THOSE days [i.e. AFTER the "GREAT tribulation"/last half of the trib consisting of 1260 days leading up to His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19, thus "AFTER" that--NO, these are not speaking of the SAME event nor time-slot]

Matthew 24:29 is describing the 6th seal. Read the surrounding context, too.

I find it uncanny that Jesus describes the same signs in the heavens that the 6th seal does, mentions the fig tree like the 6th seal does, and describes wrath (referencing the days of Noah and flood) and the 6th seal also mentions wrath.

Too many parallels to ignore in my opinion. I'm convinced it's not a coincidence and that this is one of the keys to proper exegesis of Revelation.

 

[cv5]

FreeGrace2 said:
There is nothing about action taking place ON EARTH. It all occurs IN THE AIR and IN THE CLOUDS. 1 Thess 4:17 says so.

I proved the opposite by comparing 2 passages; 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15. You didn't address them. Looks like you are ignoring them.

Some people just won't be convinced by facts.


Do you really think they were raptured into imperishable bodies? Why?

2 Thes 1:7-8

rest = us
vengeance = them

We won't even be around to see the DOTL/Tribulation/Beginning of birth pangs.

 

[cv5]

Matthew 24:29 is describing the 6th seal. Read the surrounding context, too.

I find it uncanny that Jesus describes the same signs in the heavens that the 6th seal does, mentions the fig tree like the 6th seal does, and describes wrath (referencing the days of Noah and flood) and the 6th seal also mentions wrath.

Too many parallels to ignore in my opinion. I'm convinced it's not a coincidence and that this is one of the keys to proper exegesis of Revelation.

Certainly not. In that passage the luminaries in the heavens will diminish.....to even further amplify the refulgent Glory of the Return of Lord Jesus Messiah, His second coming His return to the earth where every eye will see him.

This occurs "immediately AFTER the tribulation" of those days. The very end point of the 70th week of Daniel.

 

[cv5]

Matthew 24:29 is describing the 6th seal. Read the surrounding context, too.

I find it uncanny that Jesus describes the same signs in the heavens that the 6th seal does, mentions the fig tree like the 6th seal does, and describes wrath (referencing the days of Noah and flood) and the 6th seal also mentions wrath.

Too many parallels to ignore in my opinion. I'm convinced it's not a coincidence and that this is one of the keys to proper exegesis of Revelation.

Interestingly vv. 30 is clearly speaking about His brethren the Israelites ("tribes") mourning upon His return per Zech 12:10, 12.

Verse 31 parallels Isaiah 27:12-13

I have no idea where the amillennialists and preterists are getting their imputs......but it definitely ain't the Bible. And that is absolutely terrifying.

 

[VCO]

Fuel? Like nuclear fuel?

I thought everyone knew that the sun is fundamentally electromagnetic in nature. All stars are plasmoids in arc mode. Gravity is nothing more than non-point source dielectric acceleration.

There are no such things as particles such as photons or electrons.

ALL of the present day "standard models" are completely useless rubbish.

The fuel source that make it BURN, and it will run out at the end of man's day.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
There is nothing about action taking place ON EARTH. It all occurs IN THE AIR and IN THE CLOUDS. 1 Thess 4:17 says so.

I proved the opposite by comparing 2 passages; 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15. You didn't address them. Looks like you are ignoring them.

Some people just won't be convinced by facts.


Do you really think they were raptured into imperishable bodies? Why?

2 Thes 1:7-8

rest = us
vengeance = them

We won't even be around to see the DOTL/Tribulation/Beginning of birth pangs.

OK, I proved my answer, and so you ignore it and change the subject.

And you still haven't provided any verse that describes Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven before the Tribulation.

 

[Runningman]

Interestingly vv. 30 is clearly speaking about His brethren the Israelites ("tribes") mourning upon His return per Zech 12:10, 12.

Verse 31 parallels Isaiah 27:12-13

I have no idea where the amillennialists and preterists are getting their imputs......but it definitely ain't the Bible. And that is absolutely terrifying.

Glad you brought up Zechariah 12:10:

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Because the one who pierced Jesus was a gentile Roman:

Revelation 1:7
7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Every eye, all kindreds, not just Jewish people:

Matthew 24:30
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It's pretty clear all the tribes of the Earth who will mourn and wail are all kindreds of people on Earth, not just Jews.

 

[cv5]

Glad you brought up Zechariah 12:10:

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Because the one who pierced Jesus was a gentile Roman:

Revelation 1:7
7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Every eye, all kindreds, not just Jewish people:

Matthew 24:30
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It's pretty clear all the tribes of the Earth who will mourn and wail are all kindreds of people on Earth, not just Jews.

No you've got that all wrong. Pretty obvious even to the most humble of Bible scholars.

 

[Runningman]

No you've got that all wrong. Pretty obvious even to the most humble of Bible scholars.

You sure about that?

Ok, so all kindreds of the Earth are not all kindreds of the Earth, then, according to you. It's either all kindreds of the Earth or it's not. The ethnic Jews are a singular kindred of the Earth. I'm going to have to go with the Bible on this because you got it wrong. Whoever those so-called "humble" Bible scholars are, they're too proud to even accept what the Bible says on this. Truly shameful.

 

[lamad]

--the SEALS / TRUMPETS / VIALS (when one studies the time-stamps and timing clues in Rev) are all contained WITHIN 2520 days (the "FOR ONE WEEK [7 years]" that Dan9:27a speaks of, that comes SEQUENTIALLY after the v.26a events [/70ad things]), from start to finish; aka the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period Rev1:1 / 1:4 / 1:19c speaks of (and so does Lk18:8 / Rom16:20 )

If you would take Revelation 4 & 5 at face value, and believe what Jesus said: "The end is not yet," you would know that the seals are not a part of the 70th week of Daniel.

We KNOW that chapters 11, 12, and 13 are midpoint chapters: each includes at least one "countdown" from the midpoint to the end of the week, proving they are midpoint chapter. So somewhere in these three chapters is a marker (Jesus personally told me that the midpoint was "clearly marked" and that the entire 70th week was marked with the same marker) marking the moment the man of sin enters the temple and reveals Himself as the chapter 13 Antichrist Beast - The abomination Jesus spoke of. Of the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials, which one is written in these three midpoint chapters? Only the 7th trumpet. That is God's marker for the midpoint. If the midpoint is marked with a 7, then the end is marked with a 7, so if we look at the 7th vial, we find, "it is done," or "it is finished." This is good proof of the END of the 70th week.
If the midpoint is marked with a 7, then the beginning is marked with a 7: if we look at the 7th seal, we read of a 30 minute period of silence: what better way to mark the beginning of the time of Jacob's trouble.

There is another proof that the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint: Daniel said the event that will divide the week will be the event that stops the daily sacrifices. There can be little doubt that when someone NOT the high priest enters the most holy place in the temple, the temple will be declared unclean and the daily sacrifices must be stopped: exactly what happened with Antiochus entered the temple. Jesus told those living in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination, they are to flee into the wilderness. We see this fleeing in Rev 12:6, proving that verse to be only seconds after the abomination. If we back up from 12:6 looking for a marker, again we find the 7th trumpet.

 

[VCO]

Who cares? The only biblical issue between mortality and immortality is being imperishable. Like your views on a pretrib rapture, your claim about "no blood" is without any biblical support. Just another opinion or guess, I would guess.

Can you show me any verse that speaks of this "bloodlessness" that you claim?

AND BLOOD is the most perishable part of the body.

I already did.

1 Corinthians 15:50-53 (HCSB)
50 Brothers, I tell you this: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and corruption cannot inherit incorruption.

1 John 5:11 (NIV)
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Colossians 3:4 (ESV)
4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. {<--That is HEAVEN!}


NOW, scripture says that LIFE is in the BLOOD, here on earth, but in HEAVEN LIFE IS IN THE SON.


Leviticus 17:14 (GWT)
14 This is because the life of any creature is in its blood.
So I have said to the people of Israel:
Never eat any blood, because the life of any creature is in its blood.
Whoever eats blood must be excluded {from the people}.


You know what I believe, people like you expect all that answers and all the details to be in the BIBLE.

When the BIBLE never claims that, it claims it is a book of HIGHLIGHTS that GOD wanted us to know.


John 21:24-25 (NRSV)
24 This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true.
25 But there are also many other things that Jesus did; if every one of them were written down, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.


Luke 21:36 (NCV)
36 So be ready all the time. Pray that you will be strong enough to escape all these things that will happen and that you will be able to stand before the Son of Man.“


1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NASB)
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,


If you read Revelation Chapter 5, very carefully, you will find out that the CHURCH and the dead in Christ, are already THERE in HEAVEN, with it's 24 ELDERS of the CHURCH. I recommend the New Century Version, as it is the easiest to understand.
Pre-Wrath Rapture.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

2 Thes 1:7-8

rest = us
vengeance = them

We won't even be around to see the DOTL/Tribulation/Beginning of birth pangs.

Right. "The day of the Lord" is ONLY ever located on the earth.

And that is the ONLY Subject that Paul is informing in 2:2 about, as to its contents (the contents of the false claim).


2Th1:7-8 "ye who are [being] troubled/oppressed rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty [/powerful] angels [think: angels with 7 Trumpets and 7 Vials; think: over a period OF TIME], in flaming fire TAKING VENGEANCE ON those..." (where the "TAKING VENGEANCE ON those..." is referring to the same "them" in 2Th2:10-12 ALSO speaking of "during a time period," rather than merely on "a singular 24-hr day," the 24-hr day of Christ's RETURN to the earth Rev19. NO. Not merely then at that point, alone, but during the "time-period" (the "IN THE NIGHT" time period [aka the Trib yrs] which PRECEDES and leads UP TO that point)


[again, it seems fairly clear to me that 2Th2:7b-8a [and 2Th1:7-8] is parallel language to that of Lam2:3-4... and is referring to a point in time that initiates a period of time of JUDGMENTs unfolding]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I covered that also in a couple of previous posts:

Post #131 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4479760


Post #564 (pg 29 of this thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4534570

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Who cares? The only biblical issue between mortality and immortality is being imperishable. Like your views on a pretrib rapture, your claim about "no blood" is without any biblical support. Just another opinion or guess, I would guess.

Can you show me any verse that speaks of this "bloodlessness" that you claim?

View attachment 228588


AND BLOOD is the most perishable part of the body.

I already did.

No, you did not. The "Saviour" word above includes blood on our behalf. It does NOT speak of a "bloodless body". Just an imagination.

1 Corinthians 15:50-53 (HCSB)
50 Brothers, I tell you this: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and corruption cannot inherit incorruption.

Wow. Really? The words (phrase) "flesh and blood" simply refers to a human body. That's not. It's certainly NOT meaning that there is no blood in heaven.

Whether our changed bodies are bloodless or not is immaterial. Why do you focus on such irrelevant ideas?

If you read Revelation Chapter 5, very carefully, you will find out that the CHURCH and the dead in Christ, are already THERE in HEAVEN, with it's 24 ELDERS of the CHURCH.

How many times must one remind you pretribbers that by the time the Tribulation occurs MOST OF THE church will ALREADY be in heaven. There's been about 2,000 years of the deaths of NT believers, so of course they are already there. And they will be the ones who accompany Jesus to the rapture, along with all the OT saints as well.

I recommend the New Century Version, as it is the easiest to understand.
Pre-Wrath Rapture.

Sure. Cherry pick your version. I compare ALL the available translations to see how many translate the various ways. And then look at lexicons to see what fits best.

50 I tell you this, brothers and sisters: Flesh and blood cannot have a part in the kingdom of God. Something that will ruin cannot have a part in something that never ruins.
51 But look! I tell you this secret: We will not all sleep in death, but we will all be changed.
52 It will take only a second -- as quickly as an eye blinks -- when the last trumpet sounds. The trumpet will sound, and those who have died will be raised to live forever, and we will all be changed.
53 This body that can be destroyed must clothe itself with something that can never be destroyed. And this body that dies must clothe itself with something that can never die.

Well, pretty much what I expected. You have misread/understood the verses.

The bolded words say nothing about blood being what "ruins" or "destroys" a body. Which is basically what you are claiming.

The sole issue is that physical bodies were not designed for heaven. Did Jesus eat and drink with the disciples after His resurrection? Of course. That requires metabolism. Would you like a short course on metabolism and how blood is required for metabolism to occur?

So, back to the drawing board for you.

 

[cv5]

You sure about that?

Ok, so all kindreds of the Earth are not all kindreds of the Earth, then, according to you. It's either all kindreds of the Earth or it's not. The ethnic Jews are a singular kindred of the Earth. I'm going to have to go with the Bible on this because you got it wrong. Whoever those so-called "humble" Bible scholars are, they're too proud to even accept what the Bible says on this. Truly shameful.

Yup. 100% certain. No doubt about it whatsoever......

 

[cv5]

FreeGrace2 said:
Who cares? The only biblical issue between mortality and immortality is being imperishable. Like your views on a pretrib rapture, your claim about "no blood" is without any biblical support. Just another opinion or guess, I would guess.

Can you show me any verse that speaks of this "bloodlessness" that you claim?

No, you did not. The "Saviour" word above includes blood on our behalf. It does NOT speak of a "bloodless body". Just an imagination.


Wow. Really? The words (phrase) "flesh and blood" simply refers to a human body. That's not. It's certainly NOT meaning that there is no blood in heaven.

Whether our changed bodies are bloodless or not is immaterial. Why do you focus on such irrelevant ideas?


How many times must one remind you pretribbers that by the time the Tribulation occurs MOST OF THE church will ALREADY be in heaven. There's been about 2,000 years of the deaths of NT believers, so of course they are already there. And they will be the ones who accompany Jesus to the rapture, along with all the OT saints as well.


Sure. Cherry pick your version. I compare ALL the available translations to see how many translate the various ways. And then look at lexicons to see what fits best.

50 I tell you this, brothers and sisters: Flesh and blood cannot have a part in the kingdom of God. Something that will ruin cannot have a part in something that never ruins.
51 But look! I tell you this secret: We will not all sleep in death, but we will all be changed.
52 It will take only a second -- as quickly as an eye blinks -- when the last trumpet sounds. The trumpet will sound, and those who have died will be raised to live forever, and we will all be changed.
53 This body that can be destroyed must clothe itself with something that can never be destroyed. And this body that dies must clothe itself with something that can never die.

Well, pretty much what I expected. You have misread/understood the verses.

The bolded words say nothing about blood being what "ruins" or "destroys" a body. Which is basically what you are claiming.

The sole issue is that physical bodies were not designed for heaven. Did Jesus eat and drink with the disciples after His resurrection? Of course. That requires metabolism. Would you like a short course on metabolism and how blood is required for metabolism to occur?

So, back to the drawing board for you.

So tell us exactly what kind of metabolism did Jesus use when he walked through walls.......twice?
Did the angels use the heavenly or earthly bathroom after they had a feast with Abraham?