Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Do you consider some (many) of the saints rising up from the graves at the time of Jesus' death on the cross a rapture? (Matt 27:52) It was a resurrection; wasn't it? Although it did not include King David. That I don't know why.
The word actual word in the Greek is 'harpazo' translated as 'caught up.' Those saints who came out of their tombs after Jesus was resurrected, did not get caught up to meet the Lord in the air and therefore it cannot be a rapture. Also, while it is true that they were resurrected, it was similar to when Lazarus was resurrected, which was in their mortal bodies and not in their immortal and glorified bodies and so they all experienced death again. When the saints of Israel are resurrected, so then will those people be resurrected and that in their immortal and glorified bodies.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
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Bingo. Christ returns after the great tribulation to perform the first resurrection and rapture. This is one of the most definitive proofs for a post-trib return/resurrection/rapture.
Bingo! You just put the church through the entire wrath of God, which Jesus already suffered!

You don't put much stock in what Jesus did for believers by taking upon himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer, do you?

Understand then that, by believing and teaching that the Lord is going to gather His church after the great tribulation, i.e. after His wrath, you are putting the church through God's wrath. There is no way around this. Why do you continue to bring in partial scriptural information to make your conclusion?
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
1,285
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I think you do not take into account the significance of the shutting of the door. If the door is shut and you are on the outside, it's the end for you. Not you personally, but the examples are God shut Noah and his family in the ark and there was no way for anyone outside to enter.

Nor will there be any way for anyone to enter once the door is shut on them.
The door is shut to the Wedding in Heaven, but that only lasts for 7 years. If people get flooded they die he Natural death, but the flood during tribulation will not ARISE until the middle of the week. Thus people have plenty of time to repent, but they will still be in the flood (unless you are Jewish and repent, God protects her in the Patra/Bozrah area). So, if the Groom and Bride shut the doors to the Wedding to you, that only means you do not make the wedding, and since Jesus is juxtaposing the Wedding to the 70th week, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. But you an still repent. Jesus knows most love evil, they were fake Christians, so most will serve Satan, many will hate God because they think they should have been raptured etc. making their lives on earth as Christians a laughingstock, thus pride will kick in and they will despise God in their hearts.

Likewise, that's my point, once the Rapture happens, there will be no one else allowed to leave this earth during the 70th week, thus those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are those who came out of the Church Age Troubles, not the 70th week troubles.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Bingo! You just put the church through the entire wrath of God, which Jesus already suffered!

You don't put much stock in what Jesus did for believers by taking upon himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer, do you?

Understand then that, by believing and teaching that the Lord is going to gather His church after the great tribulation, i.e. after His wrath, you are putting the church through God's wrath. There is no way around this. Why do you continue to bring in partial scriptural information to make your conclusion?
The way around it is that you don't seem to understand what Jesus actually did.

Jesus taught that in the world there will be tribulation. The crucifixion that Jesus endured satisfied God's wrath in a spiritual sense. Those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ will be saved from the wrath to come - that is the wrath of hellfire and damnation, not the tribulation in the world.

This is evidenced by the fact that even born again Christians are currently facing hardships, persecution, and tribulation in the present and for the past almost 2,000 years.

You're wrongly conflating the great tribulation with the wrath of God. The persecution Christians have endured have been due to people in the world, just like Jesus taught. The great tribulation will be caused by protagonists such as Satan, beast, and false prophet. Not God.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,856
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Brighton, MI
And there is this interesting Proverb:

Proverbs 21:17 He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich.
ok, does not really relate to what i said,

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cf...gg/ID/8517/Oil-as-Symbol-Gods-Holy-Spirit.htm

1 Samuel 16:13
Easy-to-Read Version
13 Samuel took the horn with the oil in it, and poured the special oil on Jesse’s youngest son in front of his brothers. The Spirit of the Lord came on David with great power from that day on. Then Samuel went back home to Ramah.

Exodus 30:31
And say to the Israelites, This is a holy anointing oil [symbol of the Holy Spirit], sacred to Me alone throughout your generations.

Exodus 37:29
He also made the holy anointing oil [symbol of the Holy Spirit] and the pure, fragrant incense, after the perfumer’s art.

2 Corinthians 1:21
Common English Bible
21 God is the one who establishes us with you in Christ and who anointed us.

James 5:14
Common English Bible
14 If any of you are sick, they should call for the elders of the church, and the elders should pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord.

In the religious context anointing was done with oil and became a symbol of the Holy Spirit.

You may find this book of interest:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Emblems_of_the_Holy_Spirit/BrQCAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0
 
D

DWR

Guest
Bingo! You just put the church through the entire wrath of God, which Jesus already suffered!

You don't put much stock in what Jesus did for believers by taking upon himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer, do you?

Understand then that, by believing and teaching that the Lord is going to gather His church after the great tribulation, i.e. after His wrath, you are putting the church through God's wrath. There is no way around this. Why do you continue to bring in partial scriptural information to make your conclusion?
Statements like this is why I reject almost everything this person says.
For someone who studies as much as he claims, his understand is lacking.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Statements like this is why I reject almost everything this person says.
For someone who studies as much as he claims, his understand is lacking.
He willfully rejects the truth. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,856
1,447
113
67
Brighton, MI
And there is this interesting Proverb:

Proverbs 21:17 He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich.
A closer understanding of the Hebrew is

Proverbs 21:17

Easy-to-Read Version



17 Loving pleasure leads to poverty. Wine and luxury will never make you wealthy.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,856
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Brighton, MI
At the risk of being view as JW, I think the 144k, I'll call the perfect square whole number thingy because I'm not expert on numerical terminology, are representative of the "raptured," and so their 'sealing' before judgment commences. So I think these are us, all of us, no waiting for any more Jews to come in or anything. IOW, the last trump speaks to the (announcement the beginning of the new (year) arriving (and the books determining individuals' fate for the coming year are opened in order to be written in or erased from). And that 'there is silence in heaven for the space of half an hour,' cause me wonder if this is likened to the 10 day grace period until the great trump is sounded which announces the final seal of the book, if you're written in, you're in, if not, woah. Thereafter, the only one's inflicted or dying are those found not written in the book of like or rather that received the mark of the beast.

And I reconcile, "And he causes all (categories of people), man, woman, and child, bond, free, rich, poor, no exceptions... unless God forbid it of course... but this happens before the impervious sealing of the whole (perfect) body of which those killed in former manner are raised whole and impervious along with those that remain being changed into the same state.
If you look at the two texts where the 144,000 is they are male virgins who are Jewish from one of the 12 tribes. Also, in one of the texts they are with a great crowd too.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
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The way around it is that you don't seem to understand what Jesus actually did.

Jesus taught that in the world there will be tribulation. The crucifixion that Jesus endured satisfied God's wrath in a spiritual sense. Those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ will be saved from the wrath to come - that is the wrath of hellfire and damnation, not the tribulation in the world.

This is evidenced by the fact that even born again Christians are currently facing hardships, persecution, and tribulation in the present and for the past almost 2,000 years.

You're wrongly conflating the great tribulation with the wrath of God. The persecution Christians have endured have been due to people in the world, just like Jesus taught. The great tribulation will be caused by protagonists such as Satan, beast, and false prophet. Not God.
Antagonists*
 
Apr 26, 2021
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A closer understanding of the Hebrew is

Proverbs 21:17

Easy-to-Read Version



17 Loving pleasure leads to poverty. Wine and luxury will never make you wealthy.
The point of the proverb that I discerned is loving the world and materialism makes you spiritually poor where as if you love wine and oil, you will never become wealthy and try to serve two masters.

In this case, it's good to be worldly poor and spiritually rich.
 
Apr 26, 2021
495
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ok, does not really relate to what i said,

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cf...gg/ID/8517/Oil-as-Symbol-Gods-Holy-Spirit.htm

1 Samuel 16:13
Easy-to-Read Version
13 Samuel took the horn with the oil in it, and poured the special oil on Jesse’s youngest son in front of his brothers. The Spirit of the Lord came on David with great power from that day on. Then Samuel went back home to Ramah.

Exodus 30:31
And say to the Israelites, This is a holy anointing oil [symbol of the Holy Spirit], sacred to Me alone throughout your generations.

Exodus 37:29
He also made the holy anointing oil [symbol of the Holy Spirit] and the pure, fragrant incense, after the perfumer’s art.

2 Corinthians 1:21
Common English Bible
21 God is the one who establishes us with you in Christ and who anointed us.

James 5:14
Common English Bible
14 If any of you are sick, they should call for the elders of the church, and the elders should pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord.

In the religious context anointing was done with oil and became a symbol of the Holy Spirit.

You may find this book of interest:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Emblems_of_the_Holy_Spirit/BrQCAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0
Easy-to-read is subjective. I don't think I'm stumbling with translation here. And I pointed out why I like that Proverb in another reply. Wine and oil are sometimes referring to the Holy Spirit.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,856
1,447
113
67
Brighton, MI
And in ad 70 the believers fled.

That does not mean it has anything to do with the gt.
From context the GT is the generation living then. Not a redefining of the phrase today. The natural reading of fleeing to the mountains tells me that.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,856
1,447
113
67
Brighton, MI
The word " hammer" was not used in the crucifiction. Therefore i contend one never existed. They drilled holes in his feet and hands and hung them on predriven nails.


You framed all that outside the rapture verses
We know they used duct tape. And, the nail holes were painted on.

smile
 
Jul 23, 2018
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At the risk of being view as JW, I think the 144k, I'll call the perfect square whole number thingy because I'm not expert on numerical terminology, are representative of the "raptured," and so their 'sealing' before judgment commences. So I think these are us, all of us, no waiting for any more Jews to come in or anything. IOW, the last trump speaks to the (announcement the beginning of the new (year) arriving (and the books determining individuals' fate for the coming year are opened in order to be written in or erased from). And that 'there is silence in heaven for the space of half an hour,' cause me wonder if this is likened to the 10 day grace period until the great trump is sounded which announces the final seal of the book, if you're written in, you're in, if not, woah. Thereafter, the only one's inflicted or dying are those found not written in the book of like or rather that received the mark of the beast.

And I reconcile, "And he causes all (categories of people), man, woman, and child, bond, free, rich, poor, no exceptions... unless God forbid it of course... but this happens before the impervious sealing of the whole (perfect) body of which those killed in former manner are raised whole and impervious along with those that remain being changed into the same state.
they are ethnic Jews.
from specific tribes.
only they are sealed against the flying scorpions.
They are firstfruit Jews.
Not firstfruits of the main harvest.....(Jesus)
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,856
1,447
113
67
Brighton, MI
Easy-to-read is subjective. I don't think I'm stumbling with translation here. And I pointed out why I like that Proverb in another reply. Wine and oil are sometimes referring to the Holy Spirit.
Ah, all translation are subjective, that is part of the nature of translation.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
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From context the GT is the generation living then. Not a redefining of the phrase today. The natural reading of fleeing to the mountains tells me that.
Factor in the following;
mark of the beast
flying scorpions
hailstones of fire
No buy or sell
anyone refusing the mark beheaded.
the 4 horsemen
"tribulation such as the world has never seen or ever will"

conclusion; gt is future...without a doubt