50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Absolutely]

That thought of mid-trib did come to mind as I was attempting to formulate the models, yep

According to a certain model, they think , in mat 24 " this generation ...." Saw the white horse 2nd coming.

Do you see the folly in every model except the pretrib rapture???

 

[cv5]

Postribs are mainly posttrib as well as post wrath.
Postribs have huge problems

They think the 2nd coming on white horses is the rapture.

Ridiculous when all verses are actually on the table.

That model you presented is imo " mid trib" /prewrath"....which is equally ridiculous.

The post-trib model is a disastrous failure on every level. But the bigger disaster is that post tribbers are by and large unteachable and un-malleable. I mean just take a look at this thread. There are people that refuse to accept the fact that the 7th trumpet of Revelation cannot possibly be the trumpet of the rapture.

The deep concern is that in the words of Jesus Himself......is it true that these individuals are NOT good soil per Mat 13:23?????......

 

[Absolutely]

The post-trib model is a disastrous failure on every level. But the bigger disaster is that post tribbers are by and large unteachable and un-malleable. I mean just take a look at this thread. There are people that refuse to accept the fact that the 7th trumpet of Revelation cannot possibly be the trumpet of the rapture.

The deep concern is that in the words of Jesus Himself......is it true that these individuals are NOT good soil per Mat 13:23?????......

I looked at the trumpet doctrine years ago.
It made me chuckle as i saw what you are seeing.

I just shook my head in amazement that they get so much mileage out of a fluke.

Lol

 

[OldSage]

Cool. No, Paul is not describing events that have already happened. The Antichrist, the last one, has not appeared yet nor has the Great Tribulation started nor have the two prophets been killed and lie dead in Jerusalem for 3.5 days nor raise back to life and rise into the heavens. Preterism is literally scriptural terrorism.

But neither of the terms Antichrist nor Great Tribulation appear anywhere in Thessalonians, and yet you complain about spiritual terrorists. It's hard to know what your angle is here.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

It is not because of the Antichrist, they will FALL AWAY, it is because they are NOT GENUINELY BORN AGAIN, they settled for something less than genuine SALVATION.

Precious friend:
Just what I thought: "falling away" = DEPARTURE! The UNbeliever came
CLOSE to "the faith," heard the Wonderful News Of CHRIST's BLOOD, And
HIS Resurrection, According To The Scriptures, but then REJECTED it, AND:

DEPARTED "from the faith," NOT GENUINELY BORN AGAIN, Correct?

So, now, this begs the question about man's idea of a GREAT apostasy,
Since God Revealed To Paul, in The MYSTERY, That "SOME shall DEPART
from the faith!" (1Ti_4:1):

"Now the SPIRIT SPEAKETH EXPRESSLY, that in the latter times some
shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and
doctrines of devils;"

I believe I will Take THE SPIRIT's WORDS over "man's ideas"
EVERY day of the week, and TWICE on Sunday! Amen?
+
Confirmation of PRE-TOJT GREAT GRACE Departure "away" from the earth:

The GREAT number of "members" In The Body Of CHRIST, SOME of whom
are "looking, watching, and Patiently waiting For JESUS CHRIST,
( 2_Thessalonians 2 : 1; Romans_8 : 18, 19, 23; Romans_8 : 25;
1_Corinthians 1 : 7; Ephesians_6 : 12-18; Philippians_3 : 20;
Colossians_4 :1-3; 1_Thessalonians 1 : 10; 1_Thessalonians 5 : 5-11;
Titus_2 : 13 KJB! ), First!

"walking BY FAITH..." (2 Corinthians 5 : 7 KJB!). Amen?

While, post-tribbers are "...walking BY SIGHT," looking, watching, and
ANXIOUSLY waiting for the man of sin, son of perdition, FIRST?

I, by faith, declare, Today, Under God's GRACE, I'll stay with:

PRE-TOJT GREAT GRACE Departure!

Be Blessed!

 

[ewq1938]

But neither of the terms Antichrist nor Great Tribulation appear anywhere in Thessalonians

That would be known as the argument from silence fallacy. An argument from silence (in Latin argumentum ex silentio) is a conclusion based on the absence of an exact statement or exact term or exact word, rather than the presence of the concept, description, meaning or use of an alternative word. It is often found in the example of a question asking for something the asker already knows does not exist. Example, "Where is the word "Trinity" found in the bible?". The fallacy is the requirement for that exact word to be found somewhere rather than the concept of the Trinity being found. People unfamiliar with this fallacious tactic might consider the type of question valid when it is in fact invalid and fallacious in nature.

 

[VCO]

The post-trib model is a disastrous failure on every level. But the bigger disaster is that post tribbers are by and large unteachable and un-malleable. I mean just take a look at this thread. There are people that refuse to accept the fact that the 7th trumpet of Revelation cannot possibly be the trumpet of the rapture.

The deep concern is that in the words of Jesus Himself......is it true that these individuals are NOT good soil per Mat 13:23?????......

YEP, NO, horses in a JEWISH Wedding.

I also just learn what the "No Man will know the Day or the Hour", really means. In the Feast of the Trumpets, they blow a 100 blasts of a trumpet. It is the beginning of the NEW JEWISH YEAR, but it cannot be blown at any time. The Last Trump, can only be blown when the new sliver of the moon is actually visible, to two witnesses. That can happen at anytime during a two day time period. Thus the Last Trump of Rosh Hashanah. Thus no man will know the Day or the Hour, as two witnesses had to keep watch on the moon. In Jewish beliefs that Day is called the Hidden Day. I have to wonder, what did they do if both of those days were CLOUD COVERED ? ? ?

Buy the WAY, WARNING, I discovered that the Mormon church has upload several videos on the Rapture, not the true meaning but a false meaning. They are famous for the BAIT and SWITCH scheme, to get you to believe their false gospel.

 

[cv5]

View attachment 228848

YEP, NO, horses in a JEWISH Wedding.

I also just learn what the "No Man will know the Day or the Hour", really means. In the Feast of the Trumpets, they blow a 100 blasts of a trumpet. It is the beginning of the NEW JEWISH YEAR, but it cannot be blown at any time. The Last Trump, can only be blown when the new sliver of the moon is actually visible, to two witnesses. That can happen at anytime during a two day time period. Thus the Last Trump of Rosh Hashanah. Thus no man will know the Day or the Hour, as two witnesses had to keep watch on the moon. In Jewish beliefs that Day is called the Hidden Day. I have to wonder, what did they do if both of those days were CLOUD COVERED ? ? ?

Buy the WAY, WARNING, I discovered that the Mormon church has upload several videos on the Rapture, not the true meaning but a false meaning. They are famous for the BAIT and SWITCH scheme, to get you to believe their false gospel.

Yes....that point regarding the Feasts of Trumpets is something I will be studying more in depth. Picked that up from a poster on this site. Thats why we are here right?

 

[ewq1938]

The post-trib model is a disastrous failure on every level. But the bigger disaster is that post tribbers are by and large unteachable and un-malleable. I mean just take a look at this thread. There are people that refuse to accept the fact that the 7th trumpet of Revelation cannot possibly be the trumpet of the rapture.

The deep concern is that in the words of Jesus Himself......is it true that these individuals are NOT good soil per Mat 13:23?????......

The pre-trib model is a disastrous failure on every level. But the bigger disaster is that pre tribbers are by and large unteachable and un-malleable. I mean just take a look at this thread. There are people that refuse to accept the fact that the 7th trumpet of Revelation is the same trumpet of the rapture.

The deep concern is that in the words of Jesus Himself......is it true that these individuals are NOT good soil per Mat 13:23?????......

 

[VCO]

Precious friend:
Just what I thought: "falling away" = DEPARTURE! The UNbeliever came
CLOSE to "the faith," heard the Wonderful News Of CHRIST's BLOOD, And
HIS Resurrection, According To The Scriptures, but then REJECTED it, AND:

DEPARTED "from the faith," NOT GENUINELY BORN AGAIN, Correct?

So, now, this begs the question about man's idea of a GREAT apostasy,
Since God Revealed To Paul, in The MYSTERY, That "SOME shall DEPART
from the faith!" (1Ti_4:1):

"Now the SPIRIT SPEAKETH EXPRESSLY, that in the latter times some
shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and
doctrines of devils;"

I believe I will Take THE SPIRIT's WORDS over "man's ideas"
EVERY day of the week, and TWICE on Sunday! Amen?
+
Confirmation of PRE-TOJT GREAT GRACE Departure "away" from the earth:

The GREAT number of "members" In The Body Of CHRIST, SOME of whom
are "looking, watching, and Patiently waiting For JESUS CHRIST,
( 2_Thessalonians 2 : 1; Romans_8 : 18, 19, 23; Romans_8 : 25;
1_Corinthians 1 : 7; Ephesians_6 : 12-18; Philippians_3 : 20;
Colossians_4 :1-3; 1_Thessalonians 1 : 10; 1_Thessalonians 5 : 5-11;
Titus_2 : 13 KJB! ), First!

"walking BY FAITH..." (2 Corinthians 5 : 7 KJB!). Amen?

While, post-tribbers are "...walking BY SIGHT," looking, watching, and
ANXIOUSLY waiting for the man of sin, son of perdition, FIRST?

I, by faith, declare, Today, Under God's GRACE, I'll stay with:

PRE-TOJT GREAT GRACE Departure!

Be Blessed!

AMEN!

1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.

John 10:26-29 (HCSB)
26 But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, {not eternal if you can lose it} and they will never perish—ever!
No one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

1 Samuel 15:29 (NCV)
29 The LORD is the Eternal One of Israel. He does not lie or change his mind.
He is not a human being, so he does not change his mind.

Revelation 13:8 (HCSB)
8 All those who live on the earth will worship him {the Antichrist}, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.

2 Timothy 2:19 (HCSB)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, having this inscription: The Lord knows those who are His, and Everyone who names the name of the Lord must turn away from unrighteousness.


HE has foreknowledge of THOSE that belong to HIM, 1 John 2:19.

 

[Runningman]

Precious friend:
Just what I thought: "falling away" = DEPARTURE! The UNbeliever came
CLOSE to "the faith," heard the Wonderful News Of CHRIST's BLOOD, And
HIS Resurrection, According To The Scriptures, but then REJECTED it, AND:

DEPARTED "from the faith," NOT GENUINELY BORN AGAIN, Correct?

So, now, this begs the question about man's idea of a GREAT apostasy,
Since God Revealed To Paul, in The MYSTERY, That "SOME shall DEPART
from the faith!" (1Ti_4:1):

"Now the SPIRIT SPEAKETH EXPRESSLY, that in the latter times some
shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and
doctrines of devils;"

I believe I will Take THE SPIRIT's WORDS over "man's ideas"
EVERY day of the week, and TWICE on Sunday! Amen?
+
Confirmation of PRE-TOJT GREAT GRACE Departure "away" from the earth:

The GREAT number of "members" In The Body Of CHRIST, SOME of whom
are "looking, watching, and Patiently waiting For JESUS CHRIST,
( 2_Thessalonians 2 : 1; Romans_8 : 18, 19, 23; Romans_8 : 25;
1_Corinthians 1 : 7; Ephesians_6 : 12-18; Philippians_3 : 20;
Colossians_4 :1-3; 1_Thessalonians 1 : 10; 1_Thessalonians 5 : 5-11;
Titus_2 : 13 KJB! ), First!

"walking BY FAITH..." (2 Corinthians 5 : 7 KJB!). Amen?

While, post-tribbers are "...walking BY SIGHT," looking, watching, and
ANXIOUSLY waiting for the man of sin, son of perdition, FIRST?

I, by faith, declare, Today, Under God's GRACE, I'll stay with:

PRE-TOJT GREAT GRACE Departure!

Be Blessed!

The Greek word used for word "departure" is apostasia. This actually matters because it does render a different conclusion to the reader than what is obvious. The word apostasia means to "depart from a truth once held." Similar to our English word apostasy. It means the same thing.

You can confirm this in any Greek-to-English dictionary or Strong's concordance.

Furthermore, a departure of the church in a pre-trib rapture does not fit the immediate context of the passages in 2 Thessalonians 2; this is another hint that you're reading the verses incorrectly.

For example, if the departure does not occur until Christ returns, and Christ does not return until the man of sin (anti-Christ) is revealed, and Christ destroys the anti-Christ upon His return, and we know that the anti-Christ is one of the antagonists of the Great Tribulation, then the departure of the church would follow the return of Christ after the tribulation.

Just wanted to clear that up since you seem to have misunderstood what 2 Thessalonians 2 is actually saying. I hope that helps.

 

[OldSage]

That would be known as the argument from silence fallacy. An argument from silence (in Latin argumentum ex silentio) is a conclusion based on the absence of an exact statement or exact term or exact word, rather than the presence of the concept, description, meaning or use of an alternative word. It is often found in the example of a question asking for something the asker already knows does not exist. Example, "Where is the word "Trinity" found in the bible?". The fallacy is the requirement for that exact word to be found somewhere rather than the concept of the Trinity being found. People unfamiliar with this fallacious tactic might consider the type of question valid when it is in fact invalid and fallacious in nature.

You clearly don't really understand historical method or when it is appropriate to employ historiological terms.
Firstly let's put to bed the idea that an argument from silence is a fallacy. It isn't. It merely
has a lesser status than conclusive evidence, and is regarded as presumptive evidence. Anyway, historiology is a complex field, and one I suggest you avoid.

Secondly i am not even making this kind of argument anyway.
If Marco Polo never mentioned the Great Wall of China, it is speculative to say that he never really visited China, but
perfectly reasonable to suggest that he never visited the great Wall of China! (However, a speculative proof could be considered corroborative evidence if amassed amongst other proofs).

I never said that the fact Thessalonians doesn't mention the GT or the AC invalidates those concepts- that was never my argument. My argument is simply that you are inventing a connection where none exists. To take your logic to its logical conclusion - reductio ad absurdum -

If Nicholas Tesla wrote an essay on electricity, and you interpreted it to be about hydroponics, and I
questioned your interpretation, you could not really invoke the argument from silence.
I am saying that his paper is about electricity not hydroponics,
you are saying that although his paper appears to be about electricity and not hydroponics,
I am using an argument from silence, and the fact he doesn't mention hydroponics proves
nothing - nay the contrary, that although he never mention hydroponics that is in fact what he is writing about!

Seriously EWQ, your sophistry may dazzle some followers, but not me. Just stick to the matter in hand
and try to avoid sleight of hand.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But everytime i do it is because they can not go toe to toe with me.

What a hoot!! You can't even defend your pretrib view with a verse. All you've ever done is use a highly spiritualized parable.

Concept vs concept is my goal.

How about vs verse? But you know you can't do that. So you can quit bragging about what isn't true.

Or to be clear....to be biblical...and make my opponent go against the word.

Since you have zero verses that show raptured believers going to heaven, it is YOU who have gone against the Word.

That is why pretribs have such an advantage.

Please explain how having NO verses is an advantage.

Our verses MUST BE ommitted or reframed.

Speaking of which, you have repeatedly omitted 2 Thess 2:1. I asked many pages ago to explain that verse to show I'm wrong about my explanation of that verse.

So, here goes again.

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

Now, can you put your "money where you mouth is" by doing what I just did above? But use your your own words to define "coming" and "gathered" to show how I'm wrong.

If you can't or don't do that, you will have shown that you are omitting verses, and you have no advantage.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The post-trib model is a disastrous failure on every level. But the bigger disaster is that post tribbers are by and large unteachable and un-malleable. I mean just take a look at this thread. There are people that refuse to accept the fact that the 7th trumpet of Revelation cannot possibly be the trumpet of the rapture.

I certainly don't believe that the 7th trumpet is the trumpet of the rapture.

What is obvious to me is that there will be 7 seal judgments, 7 trumpet judgments, and then 7 bowl judgments. And THEN, there will be the Second Coming, announced by the "last trumpet". Couldn't be simpler.

 

[cv5]

I certainly don't believe that the 7th trumpet is the trumpet of the rapture.

What is obvious to me is that there will be 7 seal judgments, 7 trumpet judgments, and then 7 bowl judgments. And THEN, there will be the Second Coming, announced by the "last trumpet". Couldn't be simpler.

If you're looking at the Scripture through your self-imposed keyhole.......I can guarantee you're not getting the complete view.

What I'm really worried about is that we're dealing with a post-tribber "blind men and the elephant" scenario. Just kind of groping around in the dark and never really getting it.......

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I missed my window to edit again as I was adding... "so, I assume, after the event of the rapture becomes a known, one can begin the count to the DOTL?

I would word this ^ differently.

Not "[then] one can begin the count TO THE DotL" (as though "the DOTL" commences at His Second Coming to the earth Rev19. No.)


Rather, after our Rapture event occurs, then the DOTL [Trib aspect--7-yrs in length] will commence to unfold upon the earth [1];
and those "7 yrs" (2520 days) are what's "counted," leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth [2] Rev19,
FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age [3]
(ALL three parts ^ making up what is called "the DOTL" time period in its entirety--entirely earthly-located).





Hope that helps you see my perspective. = )

 

[Mem]

I would word this ^ differently.

Not "[then] one can begin the count TO THE DotL" (as though "the DOTL" commences at His Second Coming to the earth Rev19. No.)


Rather, after our Rapture event occurs, then the DOTL [Trib aspect--7-yrs in length] will commence to unfold upon the earth [1];
and those "7 yrs" (2520 days) are what's "counted," leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth [2] Rev19,
FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age [3]
(ALL three parts ^ making up what is called "the DOTL" time period in its entirety--entirely earthly-located).


Ok, in this view, the rapture is a sort of herald to the DOTL.


Hope that helps you see my perspective. = )

I think it helps, yes, ty. But just to be certain, you see the rapture as a sort of herald to the arrival of the DOTL?

According to a certain model, they think , in mat 24 " this generation ...." Saw the white horse 2nd coming.

Do you see the folly in every model except the pretrib rapture???

I'm still processing the establishment of my pattern model from which I can then compare any other established models. This will undoubtedly require an definitive understanding of seals, trumpets, vials, etc., along with a more precise determination as to the standard DOTL

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The word apostasia means to "depart from a truth once held." Similar to our English word apostasy. It means the same thing.

You can confirm this in any Greek-to-English dictionary or Strong's concordance.

I had provided information from Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon [1871, I think], back on page 39:

Post #768 (pg 39 of this thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4536227


[further thoughts also provided in Post #764 & Post #766--same page]

 

[ewq1938]

You clearly don't really understand historical method or when it is appropriate to employ historiological terms.

Doesn't change the fact that you employ a logical fallacy when saying certain words were not used in an epistle.

 

[randyk]

Doesn't change the fact that you employ a logical fallacy when saying certain words were not used in an epistle.

I had provided information from Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon [1871, I think], back on page 39:

Post #768 (pg 39 of this thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4536227

[further thoughts also provided in Post #764 & Post #766--same page]

I agree with you that apostasia can have the sense of a simple departure. But the word sure sounds like our English word "apostasy!" In reality, words do often have several different meanings. It is *context* that is most important in determining how it is being used in any particular passage.

As I've said many times, the context is not the departure of the Church, even though that is mentioned. The communicated message has to do with the obstacle to Christ's more immediate coming, and is identified as the necessity that Antichrist appears 1st. Therefore, apostasia refers to a departure from the faith, as initiated under Antichrist. And it is fully disclosed in Dan 7.