50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Absolutely]

Probably doesn't mean much considering that you believe Christians actually go through the time of the wrath of the Lamb. Whatever you think of this so-called apostasy is going to be wrong.

Yep

It is for sure no points for postribs.

Has no bearing on saving that poorly thought out doctrine.

Imagine if we were defending that weak " power point" ?

Comical

Revealed.
Ac revealed.
Their big bomb they drop propels them ONLY INTO " REVEALED"

LOL

 

[Absolutely]

Yes, I know and agree. I've been arguing Postrib since the late 70s. I understand the arguments through and through. The purpose to argue now isn't to convince the "die hards," but rather to address the questions today, because there are thousands of others who will listen to these arguments and don't have their minds made up.

My own previous pastors told me they were interested in hearing me out on this debate. But in the end they turned away. They gave me their email address and phone number, and they ignored both. My current pastor was willing to hear me out, and instead of arguing it, his argument was that our denomination requires Pretrib Teaching. When I told him I wrote to ask the denomination, and they refused to respond, he said they route these kinds of questions through the local pastor.

As you have parked in your postrib doctrine, this forum is a good place to change the minds of pretribbers.

Darby
Trumpets
Lahaye
Mcdonald
" falling away"
" after the trib...mat 24"
Etc.

Usually goes nowhere.

Is there a thread on the postrib doctrine?

I know there is a guy on utube named anderson that debated "husky" and got his clock cleaned.

I cant remember a postrib rapture thread...where that doctrine is laid out.

 

[Absolutely]

All I see on this thread is post-trib denial.
Here is Bing's view on all this.


Apostasia and its cognate forms and related words are used over 40 times in the Septuagint, and they are all used of a political or religious defection or rebellion.

Confirmation bias.....one gets the feeling that apostasia has no chance here it - will mean whatever each camp decides it should mean

lets assume it means falling away.

Then what?

Where is the smoking gun?

 

[Absolutely]

No, it does not have that meaning.

The word "falling away" is apostasia from where we get the words Apostate and Apostasy. Obviously it means a moral and spiritual "departure" not a physical departure.

G646
a?p?stas?´a
apostasia
Thayer Definition:
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647
Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

Total KJV occurrences: 2

The only other use of this word in the bible was people departing from the teachings of Moses. Neither use has anything to do with simply going somewhere physically.


*********************************


From Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3.


They specifically cite 2Th 2:3 as being a defection "in religious sense, rebellion against God".



2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Ok
So many people depart and the revealing of the AC is apparent and all the news is covering it.

That is neither a plus or minus for your doctrine

 

[Absolutely]

Whether it is "departure" or " "departure from the faith" it ONLY PROPELS into "REVEALED"

What is the problem?

 

[OldSage]

lets assume it means falling away.

Then what?

Where is the smoking gun?

If it was extra-canonical, we might see the smoking gun....

 

[FreeGrace2]

'episynagogue epi autos' means 'our blessed religious assembling in Christ'

So what Paul is talking about here is the coming of Christ in judgment on Jerusalem, and the Jewish Church's blessed
religious gathering to Christ - i.e. their escape from Jerusalem

This was my comment:
"I certainly don't believe that the 7th trumpet is the trumpet of the rapture."

Not sure how your comment relates to my comment.

 

[VCO]

I think Jesus appears in person twice to the Church. Once immediately after his resurrection, once at the wrap-up.
This is what Paul means by second appearance I think.

The expression 'Second Coming' just seems plain incorrect
as Jesus also comes back in judgment.
Obviously whenever he returns in judgment he is not physically appearing to those who look for him!

Once we understand the difference between appearance and coming,
then various confusing passages can be cleared up i think.

NO WERE ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH DID YOU GET THAT FALSE INFORMATION ? ? ? It is obvious that FALSE info came out of your carnal mind or someone else's. It was not put in your heart by the HOLY SPIRIT. Do you know, I can blow that FALSE Theory clean out of the Water with ONE VERSE:

1 Corinthians 15:44 (ESV)
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

So much for that WILD THEORY.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is for sure no points for postribs.

Has no bearing on saving that poorly thought out doctrine.

Since this poster has me on 'ignore', he has shielded himself from my legitimate challenges to his views. I guess it is to ease his conscience by not having to face the truth.

So, would someone else challenge him to explain 2 Thess 2:1? Here's how to do it.

Quote the verse: Concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

Notice I inserted my understanding of the key words, 'coming' and 'gathered'.

Ask him to quote the verse but insert his own understanding of the 2 words, so we can understand how the mind of a pretribber actually works.

Thank you.

 

[OldSage]

This was my comment:
"I certainly don't believe that the 7th trumpet is the trumpet of the rapture."

Not sure how your comment relates to my comment.

"Concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,"

Since Gary is probably sleeping, I thought I'd take up the challenge, as the internet never sleeps.

Concerning the coming (coming of the Lord to judge Jerusalem) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (the gathering together of the Jerusalem/Judean church in Christ) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters

 

[Runningman]

Since this poster has me on 'ignore', he has shielded himself from my legitimate challenges to his views. I guess it is to ease his conscience by not having to face the truth.

So, would someone else challenge him to explain 2 Thess 2:1? Here's how to do it.

Quote the verse: Concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

Notice I inserted my understanding of the key words, 'coming' and 'gathered'.

Ask him to quote the verse but insert his own understanding of the 2 words, so we can understand how the mind of a pretribber actually works.

Thank you.

Welcome to the club. They put me on ignore sometimes too.

 

[OldSage]

NO WERE ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH DID YOU GET THAT FALSE INFORMATION ? ? ? It is obvious that FALSE info came out of your carnal mind or someone else's. It was not put in your heart by the HOLY SPIRIT. Do you know, I can blow that FALSE Theory clean out of the Water with ONE VERSE:

1 Corinthians 15:44 (ESV)
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

So much for that WILD THEORY.

Very questionable carnal graphics

 

[FreeGrace2]

OK, now your turn.

Since Gary is probably sleeping, I thought I'd take up the challenge, as the internet never sleeps.

Concerning the coming (coming of the Lord to judge Jerusalem) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (the gathering together of the Jerusalem/Judean church in Christ) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters

So you assume that in the middle of discussing the Lord's Second Coming, Paul would change course and speak about the coming judgment on Jerusalem?? That doesn't make sense.

Further, you've got 2 more verses that prove that he wasn't talking about Jerusalem. The context is about the Beast, aka the a/c.

But thanks for trying.

 

[VCO]

OldSage


No offense intended, but that was the wildest theory that I ever heard of.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Welcome to the club. They put me on ignore sometimes too.

Yes, the only way for some to ease their consciences. Just ignore the truth that is being given. They don't want the truth of the Bible since their minds have already been made up.

 

[OldSage]

So you assume that in the middle of discussing the Lord's Second Coming, Paul would change course and speak about the coming judgment on Jerusalem?? That doesn't make sense.

Further, you've got 2 more verses that prove that he wasn't talking about Jerusalem. The context is about the Beast, aka the a/c.

But thanks for trying.

The pleasure is all mine.

You seem not really to have a handle on what Paul is saying though. The entire piece
is about the judgment of Jerusalem and the saving of the Church.

I suggest you reread it and you try again.

 

[OldSage]

OldSage


No offense intended, but that was the wildest theory that I ever heard of.

I'll be honest VCO - I am unsure what my theory is that you mention.
I don't want a stressy argument though my friend as I know you've had a few strokes.
I will be friendly.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You seem not really to have a handle on what Paul is saying though. The entire piece is about the judgment of Jerusalem and the saving of the Church.

Are you really serious?

I suggest you reread it and you try again.

I suggest that you do. 1 Thess 4:17 is clearly about the first resurrection and rapture. And 2 Thess 2 begins with that same discussion.

Anyway, you didn't really explain what "gathering" was referring to, even if Paul was only discussing the destruction of Jerusalem.

When Jerusalem was destroyed, the Jews were SCATTERED, not "gathered" anyway. So your analysis fails.

 

[OldSage]

Are you really serious?


I suggest that you do. 1 Thess 4:17 is clearly about the first resurrection and rapture. And 2 Thess 2 begins with that same discussion.

Anyway, you didn't really explain what "gathering" was referring to, even if Paul was only discussing the destruction of Jerusalem.

When Jerusalem was destroyed, the Jews were SCATTERED, not "gathered" anyway. So your analysis fails.

Are you really serious?


I suggest that you do. 1 Thess 4:17 is clearly about the first resurrection and rapture. And 2 Thess 2 begins with that same discussion.

Anyway, you didn't really explain what "gathering" was referring to, even if Paul was only discussing the destruction of Jerusalem.

When Jerusalem was destroyed, the Jews were SCATTERED, not "gathered" anyway. So your analysis fails.

Ok, you are a bit un-clued here....the scattering is the last thing that happens. I'll do a separate study

 

[Thewatchman]

Might I suggest that you read Ezekel where God says I am against those that teach my people to fly to save there soul.
Matthew 13:36-43 This is Jesus Himself answering the parable of the wheat and tares. The field is the world, the angles are the reapers and they come and take the tares first. The tares the children of Satan, then is the wheat the children of God taken.
Matthew 24, Mark 13, both tell us "When ye therefore shall see the abominsation of desolation spoken of by the prophet, standing in the holy place, (whosoever readeth, let him understand) We have to see Satan standing in the tempel of God proclaming to be God. We will see that before Jesus returns. If I did not have to go to the hospitel for some test I would keep going. I will send more today. I look forward to you showing me the rapture in the bible.