50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Jul 23, 2018
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I never led myself in the direction of Postrib--God led me there (I believe). I didn't seek it--it came knocking on my door. I have a long testimony about it.

So it doesn't really matter where I share it. I just share it when I see the idea needs to be presented, where false beliefs are being presented that contradict it.

I never worry about who will accept anything I say. I simply say what I believe God wants me to say. It's God's job to convince anybody of anything. People almost *never* listen to me.

So when people get alone with God, and God designs a person's circumstances around a testimony they've been given, they will change their minds. They want to believe in God and to obey Him. That's all that matters.
Ok
Does the word of God, the bible, harmonize with what you say you heard?

That is the main focus of a forum because nobody can verify if a person heard God outside of the bible confirming it.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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In all honesty, brother, you seem too desperate to be inspired by God. Doesn't at all sound "Christian." Not only are you saying absolutely "wild" things, it's not even true. You don't even know me. I'm a Postribber, and I do understand the DOTL, the 3.5 year rule of Antichrist, and the Antichrist himself.

To say I'm "lost" because I don't agree with you doesn't sound very "brotherly." Think about it.
Don't misquote me. I have never stated on this thread at any time for any reason that someone was "LOST".

Misquoting me in such a fashion is deceptive.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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That isn't a problem to me, brother! In the Gospels, Jesus and his disciples are *still under the Law!* That means that at that time only Israel are God's People still. The Church hasn't even been born yet. Of course the international Church isn't in Matt 24, Mark 13 or Dan 9 and 12! These things are focused largely only on Israel.

The Church is *not* absent in the book of Revelation, although Pretribbers claim so. The book is specifically written to the Church. It's all about the Church. The Church is persecuted by the Antichrist. The language sometimes is OT, and uses those kinds of terms. So people get a false conception that somehow the Dispensations of changed, and that in the book of Revelation the Church is gone and now things have switched back to OT times and only Israel. That's certainly against what is said, namely that *Christians* are being persecuted by Antichrist, and not just *Israel!*



Boy, you really sound like you're open to change? ;)
The truth is that the Church is found nowhere in the book of revelation after chapter 5. You will not find the term Church anywhere in chapter 6 and beyond.

Furthermore there is no preaching by the Church in chapters 6 and beyond. The task of preaching once again falls to Israelites, who have been recommissioned to this particular task.

I am certainly NOT open to change from the truth of the pre-trib rapture to error.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Everything about Jesus' 2nd Coming in the Bible is Postrib. In the absence of any Pretrib doctrine, that is the default position. Not only so, but 2 Thes 2 is unmistakable Postrib Teaching, unless of course you confuse the language.

No, the Antichrist doesn't kill all Christians. Within his European orbit he does try to mark everybody as pagans who worship him. But that certainly doesn't mean he will do this world-wide, nor does it mean he will succeed in eliminating all believers.

Often the Bible speaks in "universal" terms as a general, and not an exhaustive, way. There are many proofs of this.

All of this teaching in the Bible would've been useless over the last 2000 years if it only applies uniquely in the endtimes. Though I do believe this will have a specific application under the rule of Antichrist in the last days, I think it presents a picture of times *throughout the Church Age,* in which Christians face these things regularly.

Christians have seen times of intense persecution, and have endure, and have prevailed. The Church was never completely stamped out!
"""But that certainly doesn't mean he will do this world-wide, nor does it mean he will succeed in eliminating all believers."""

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark
in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast,
or the number of his name.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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"""But that certainly doesn't mean he will do this world-wide, nor does it mean he will succeed in eliminating all believers."""

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Is anyone on this thread agreeing;
1) that the gt is worldwide

2) that ...as is written...it means the ac massacres all christians
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Don't misquote me. I have never stated on this thread at any time for any reason that someone was "LOST".

Misquoting me in such a fashion is deceptive.
I DID say lost but in the sense that you've lost your way in terms of understanding the Scripture. Definitely not lost in the sense of losing your salvation. It is impossible to lose your salvation.

My apologies if you took it the wrong way. I will make sure my wording is more careful in the future.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Why are you talking in a funny voice? It sounds a bit stupid.
Rather, your hearing is off.

'Tell ya what' is actually quite offensive in British English - maybe less so on your side of the pond.
So you're a brit, huh? We have our customs, you have yours.

Erm I did answer some of your questions - maybe you need to reread the posts and then ask the pertinent questions.
I have asked the pertinent questions.

Given that you sit there firing out questions like a police Academy novitiate, which i generally take the trouble to reply to , it is a bit rude really to say things like:

You sure do like to dodge, don'cha.
That's what your reply looked like.

It's like you are just here to showboat and be a bit of a jerk. What's that all about?
Why can't you just be a normal adult?
What is your problem anyway? I ask straightforward questions.

Ok, so you understand that we are talking about Jerusalem.
You made reference to a temple but not Jerusalem. So where do you see the mention of Jerusalem?

In 2 Thess CH 2, there is no mention of Jerusalem.

Regarding a temple, we have this:

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

v.3 is a clear reference to the end time Beast #1, aka the a/c. Then, in v.4 Paul prophesies about this Beast setting himself up in God's temple.

Why do you think Paul was referring to the current temple of his day? Do you think the Bible's beast #1 has already appeared, way back in 70 AD?

That would be a ridiculous idea.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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The truth is that the Church is found nowhere in the book of revelation after chapter 5. You will not find the term Church anywhere in chapter 6 and beyond.
Well, let me introduce you to Revelation 22:16 then.

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

In black and white. In fact, the Church bookends the whole book of Revelation.

The first 3 chapters are directly to the churches. And then in the last chapter we have v.16. If the church isn't involved in any way during the Trib, it seems rather silly for John to give "this testimony for the churches".

Furthermore there is no preaching by the Church in chapters 6 and beyond.
Wrong again. The 144,000 saved Jews are still part of the Bride. Why, you ask? Because the Bible says this:

Col 3:11 - Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

The 144,000 Jews are evangelists, just as the 2 Witnesses will be.

The task of preaching once again falls to Israelites, who have been recommissioned to this particular task.
"Recommissioned" you say? Are you suggesting that they will preach something other than what Paul preached?

I am certainly NOT open to change from the truth of the pre-trib rapture to error.
The error is that pretrib ideas have no verses that support the claim.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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'Tell ya what' is actually quite offensive in British English - maybe less so on your side of the pond.
I am flattered that you apparently thought that I could read minds. But no, I'm as fallen a human being as every Brit is.

So no, I had no idea because my computer doesn't translate your typing into sounds that I can hear.

And since I don't know your customs and such, no doubt I'll be stepping on your toes all over the place. My excuse is that I'm an American.

Then you rudely said this:
Why are you talking in a funny voice? It sounds a bit stupid.
How you're able to hear sounds from my posts is nothing short of amazing. Or, just maybe, you are only "hearing things".
 

Thewatchman

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Jun 19, 2021
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I haven't seen a Shepherd's chapel person online in years. The pastor was in error that there is no rapture in the bible. There is simply no rapture before the Great Tribulation happens. The rapture happens at the second coming:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.
I thank we agree I thought you were talking about a pretrib rapture. If you are saying that Jesus comes at the seventh trump and not before then we agree
 
Jan 31, 2021
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OldSage said:
Lol. You need a long cold douche in scripture
You need to grow up and stop acting and speaking childishly.
And he had the audacity to say this about what I posted:

"'Tell ya what' is actually quite offensive in British English - maybe less so on your side of the pond."

I guess he has no clue about what a douche is in America.
 

randyk

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Jan 14, 2021
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Don't misquote me. I have never stated on this thread at any time for any reason that someone was "LOST".

Misquoting me in such a fashion is deceptive.
The word you used was "lost," and you may not have indicated "lost" as in damned. The fact that you used such a strong word indicates that you opt for personal attacks, and don't rely on actual arguments.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
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The truth is that the Church is found nowhere in the book of revelation after chapter 5. You will not find the term Church anywhere in chapter 6 and beyond.
That is misrepresentative of the fact that *Christians* are in fact mentioned. So you think that when Christians are mentioned and not the word "church" that that means somehow the church doesn't exist in the reign of Antichrist? So who is being attacked by Antichrist-- believers in Christ who are Jews who are Christians and yet not really part of the Church?

Furthermore there is no preaching by the Church in chapters 6 and beyond. The task of preaching once again falls to Israelites, who have been recommissioned to this particular task.

I am certainly NOT open to change from the truth of the pre-trib rapture to error.
Yes, it will take the Holy Spirit to convince you otherwise. But if you don't even allow the Holy Spirit to correct your errant beliefs, then you'll have to live and die with the consequences. You'll have limited your Christian life, and thus reduce your effectiveness as a Christian witness. Your witness to others will be, "I love the Lord up to the point where He contradicts my beliefs."
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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I thank we agree I thought you were talking about a pretrib rapture. If you are saying that Jesus comes at the seventh trump and not before then we agree

The main reason I firmly Believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture, is the Holy Spirit convinced me in my HEART that it is absolutely TRUE.

Secondary REASON is this VERSE, telling people who lived at the TIME OF CHRIST they NEED to KEEP READY:

Mat 25:13 (LITV)
Therefore, watch, for you do not know the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man comes.

Mat 25:13 (CEV) So, my disciples, always be ready! You don't know the day or the time when all this will happen.

Mat 25:13 (ERV) "So always be ready. You don't know the day or the time when the Son of Man will come.

Matthew 25:13 (NIV)
13 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

Matthew 25:13 (NCV)
13 So always be ready, because you don’t know the day or the hour the Son of Man will come.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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First, I'm talking about 2 Thes 1, which deals with the 2nd Coming of Christ, and our being gathered to him. Second, the temple in which Antichrist takes his seat has a number of options. I only offer my own option, which doesn't at all decide what 2 Thes 1 is all about.

2 Thes 1 is talking about the tribulations Christians were already suffering, and continuing until the end of the age. At the end of the age, Jerusalem and the temple have no role whatsoever in God's NT economy. Jerusalem, as a city, certainly plays a role, but not with respect to OT worship at the temple.

My view of Antichrist's place in God's temple assumes that Paul referred to God's temple in heaven, after which the earthly temple was strictly a temporary model. The book of Hebrews, and Pauline Doctrine, would prohibit any sense of a restored temple worship in the last days.

Antichrist is claiming to be God. He is claiming to own a space in God's throne room. In other words, the statement that he sits in the temple of God is a metaphorical statement.

I feel confident that Paul was taking his metaphorical statement from the prototype of Antiochus 4, who historically tried to displace orthodox Jewish worship with Hellenism and idolatry. It was displacement of the true God for false gods, like Jupiter or Antiochus himself.
I think earlier you said "why would you want to read it like that?"
I suppose it begs the question of how Paul's words to the Thessalonikans should be construed,
as the advice of an overseer, or as prophecy. They are both really aren't they?
But even as prophecy why wouldn't one simply look for a fulfillment?
Hence first century AD.

But I think your question refers to something else.
The idea of the Coming of The Lord at this time
doesn't fit with what we've been taught. But as I said earlier,
you have to differentiate the appearing of the Lord to the Church, which
only happens twice, from the comings of the Lord in judgment, which
are not numerically qualified. Certain ideas are so ingrained we
probably have never even evaluated them. 2 Thess 1 actually refers to the
revelation (apokalyptica) and the face (prosopon) of the Lord incidentally.

I am not all in on these ideas by the way, they just seem at this point the most
reasonable interpretation to me.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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OK, so it seems you are a "pre-wrath" kind of guy. That Jesus comes for believers in the middle of the trib.

So then, please explain 2 Thess 2:1 in the same style as I do:

"Concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,"

OK, now your turn. Just put in the parentheses what you think the words "coming" and "being gathered" refers to, as I have.

Looking forward to your reply.
post-trib
pre-wrath

pre-millennial
2nd coming; no 3rd coming
mid-trib was ~1000 years ago

The Great Tribulation started circa 70 A.D. and will end at some point in the future. The worst is yet to come.

There is no 7-year 'prophetic' End Times period.

There will be no 7-year treaty between any antichrist and Israel (as being in accordance with bible prophecy).

There is a 3.5-year 'prophetic' End Times period - we call it the Two Witnesses. And, it is post-trib.

If you pay attention (reading my posts), it will not take you long to know what I believe. And, it should be pretty clear on the 'Study' pages of my web site.

Here is the answer to your request - "and then some"... :

2 Thessalonians 2:

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Coming of Christ), and by our gathering together unto him (Rapture), 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (Second Coming of Christ) is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (Second Coming of Christ) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (Second Coming of Christ):

two 'comings':

~ redemption / the cross / as savior - past

~ judgment / flaming fire / king-of-kings - future

two 'resurrections':

~ with rapture 'event' - future

~ Judgment Day - future
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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The 'trumpets' and 'vials' are both/all post-trib. The 'seals' are part 'during-trib' and part 'post-trib'.

seals - long span of time (~2000 years)

trumpets - 3.5 year span

vials - hours to perhaps a few days at most
 
Jan 31, 2021
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cv5 said:
The truth is that the Church is found nowhere in the book of revelation after chapter 5. You will not find the term Church anywhere in chapter 6 and beyond.
That is misrepresentative of the fact that *Christians* are in fact mentioned. So you think that when Christians are mentioned and not the word "church" that that means somehow the church doesn't exist in the reign of Antichrist? So who is being attacked by Antichrist-- believers in Christ who are Jews who are Christians and yet not really part of the Church?
I showed the other poster that the book of Revelation is actually bookended by the church. ch 1-3 are directly for the church and in the last chapter, 22:16 mentions "the churches". So the poster is completely off base with his remarks.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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The main reason I firmly Believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture, is the Holy Spirit convinced me in my HEART that it is absolutely TRUE.
Personal testimony doesn't trump the Word of God. There is NO MENTION in ANY rapture verse of resurrected and raptured believers being taken to heaven.

In fact, 2 Thess 2:1 nails the rapture occurring when Jesus Christ returns at the Second Advent.